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View Full Version : Consider reading this before making your "Window Of Op" shake


Ashkon
01-11-2004, 06:30 PM
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine/windowofopportunity.htm

If you have read this, I'd like the followrs to look at this side of the story as well. The following link is a debate between simple or complex carbohydrate in PWO shakes and contains marvelous studies. The conclusion was that complex carbohydrates ar the way to go. State your opinons back once you have read enough. Almost every simple carb user has swiched to complex after that. It is worth the time. I personally used simple sugers but I'm sure many of the forum members in here use simple as well and this is why i'd like you to fight over this as well.

Tuf
01-11-2004, 06:40 PM
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I don't have a real way to explain it

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As for the physiology behind this, I cannot comment.

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I didn't read it all, but I wasn't impressed.

Venom
01-11-2004, 06:45 PM
And read this, Pre Contest Week - An In Depth Analysis (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/precontestweek.htm) Along with thousands of other scientific journals, which we source.

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I don't have a real way to explain it

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As for the physiology behind this, I cannot comment.

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I didn't read it all, but I wasn't impressed.

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No kidding. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
01-11-2004, 06:55 PM

donaldj
01-11-2004, 06:58 PM
I'll stick with abc's mods over bodybuilding.com!

Tuf
01-11-2004, 07:02 PM
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Note the absence of medical studies, just opinion.

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The overarching theme of the entire "study."

Nice commentary, Yu.

mr.selfdestruct
01-11-2004, 07:04 PM
Hard to know what to believe these days, but I trust the mods here (and that's a big deal, considering I'm trusting them with MY body!). They certainly aren't talking out of their arses like some of these guys on bodybuilding.com. Keep up the great work guys!

nozzle
01-11-2004, 07:15 PM
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I'll stick with abc's mods over bodybuilding.com!

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me too!

wWarriorWw
01-11-2004, 07:18 PM
Wow Yu you(no PUN intended /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif) butchered it!

IronFuji
01-11-2004, 07:51 PM
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I'll stick with abc's mods over bodybuilding.com!

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me too!

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Me three! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ZachE84
01-11-2004, 08:16 PM
Im glad the mods are tearing up this BS. I visitied bbing.com for one day and noticed 80% of all members there eat oatmeal as their PWO shake. I tried to help them, even posted the PWO article here, they just attacked me with no scientific backing at all.

Lets just say, ive never gone back since.

ZachE84
01-11-2004, 08:19 PM
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That kind of garbage can influence people on other boards, but you cannot slip that trash past us here. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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Stated perfectly Yu!

JoeGT
01-11-2004, 08:29 PM
Yu, I couldn't stop grinning when I was reading your commentary. You totally ripped that guy's arguements to pieces, lol. Good work.

Just another reason why I am glad Heen introduced me to this place, lol.

Fireproof
01-11-2004, 08:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]

If you have read this, I'd like the followrs to look at this side of the story as well. ... I personally used simple sugers but I'm sure many of the forum members in here use simple as well and this is why i'd like you to fight over this as well.


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http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage23/9.gif
http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/signs/dontfeedtrolls.gif
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/signs02/12.gif

Venom
01-11-2004, 08:54 PM
^^^
lol /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Patyal68
01-11-2004, 09:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
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I'll stick with abc's mods over bodybuilding.com!

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me too!

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Me three! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Four!!! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Also, it sounds like by "complex carbs" all those people can think of is oats. If you read the Window of Opportunity carefully, you'll see it's not only whey and dextrose but also maltodextrin and sodium. Maltodextrin is a complex carb, which in contrast to oats, starts being digested as soon as it comes in contact with your saliva.

The whey and oats combination is great for cardio bunnies /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif not for bodybuilders /forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif

BlueFlameEyes
01-11-2004, 09:51 PM
See, this is why I like this site. No one knows the "perfect" methods of training and nutrition, the most people can do is be as informed as possible, and that what everyone here is. I've never even been there, but it seems like bb.com is just a forum for kids to try and impress strangers by stating that everyone else is wrong, they're right, and anyone who says otherwise is a moron. It's ridiculous. Everyone at ABC is constantly on the hunt for knowledge and learning, and they're kind enough to share it with the general public.

B_F_E

AndrewWard
01-11-2004, 09:58 PM
So whats so bad about having oats PWO instead of maltodextrin and glucose?
I need some hardcore replies lol so I can prove some people wrong!

Venom
01-11-2004, 10:03 PM
Read our articles Andrew. You will find all the answers there.

Patyal68
01-11-2004, 10:11 PM
^^ Oats and whey is a good PWO shake if you do cardio. Otherwise, for post lifting you need a balanced amount of simple and complex carbs based on your body-weight and goals (cutting, maintaining or bulking). The PWO shake with malto and dextrose will allow your body NOT to become catabolic and will promote growth... my 2 cents

SteveO
01-11-2004, 10:24 PM
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aside from just fat gain, there is always the potential of becoming insulin resistant or developing type II diabetes later in life, thanks to constant insulin spikes.

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ok someone just mentioned this on there, I'm kinda curious about this statement... he didn't have any scientific research about it

President Wilson
01-11-2004, 10:27 PM
Its sad how these people make statements with zero scientific backing. Nice commentary Yu Yevon. I especially liked this part:

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Rocket science - no. Science relating to bioenergetics, exercise physiology and organic chemistry - absolutely.


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Patyal68
01-11-2004, 10:28 PM
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aside from just fat gain, there is always the potential of becoming insulin resistant or developing type II diabetes later in life, thanks to constant insulin spikes.

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ok someone just mentioned this on there, I'm kinda curious about this statement... he didn't have any scientific research about it

[/ QUOTE ]I think that's funny... and VERY ignorant

renob
01-11-2004, 10:40 PM
nice job Yu! ripped that article to shreds

akufadum
01-11-2004, 11:05 PM
I usually say "Ignore the Trolls", but it's kinda fun to watch Yu beat them senseless with the truth instead.

Adam Knowlden
01-12-2004, 12:35 AM
All I see for excuses are:

1. The supplement companies made up high GI carbs.

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The whole high G.I. post-workout theory was invented by the supp companies and is FAR from ideal!


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The synergistically stimulating effect of the combined intake of carbohydrates and protein on plasma insulin concentrations was described for the first time in the 1960s and was confirmed later by Nuttall et al. The insulinotropic effect of intravenous amino acid administration was also studied in the 1960s by Floyd et al.

Every time I see this debate, instead of presenting evidence, we see ad hominem attacks. "It's the supplement companies fault!!!!!" Give me a break. They are calling every research journal a scam, as though there is some conspiracy theory.

This is like me stating I do not use complex carbs post workout because I know quaker oats invented this idea to steal from my pocket book.

I will be exposing all of this mythology soon in JHR.

2. You will get fat.(PS- I've spiked my way to 7% BF!)

Not likely if one knows what they are doing, but the amount of carbs to ratio of consumption is vital, and why a tapered solution is ideal.

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I have come to the conclusion that the slight benefit from the insulin spike created by Malto/Dex post workout is not worth the tradeoff in fat accumulation.


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Slight? You can not find any solution that will assimilate for gastric emptying purposes any faster!

And based on what? All the studies he posted only further back our claims!LOL

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Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase

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He highlighted the insulin independent selection!LOL! Read the rest! Is this guy just looking for a excuse? it's not in the studies he's presenting! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle.

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So what! This has nothing to do with replacing glycogen! This is a straw man!

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The insulin spike from whey is enough to refuel your body - the need for dextrose or maltodextrin is not necessary.

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This is absolutely absurd. First the carbs are what is refueling your body, the protein is for repair. So already you show your ignorance. Moreover, the type of carb is even more important.

Also, there is a vital window post workout in which to begin replacing glycogen. This is even more profound for body builders as we train multiple days in a row!

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Postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis is an important factor in determining the time needed to recover from prolonged exercise.

Sherman WM, Armstrong LE, Murray TM, et al. Effect of a 42.2-km footrace and subsequent rest or exercise on muscular strength and work capacity. J Appl Physiol 1984;57:1668–73.[Abstract/Free Full Text]


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and,

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The reliance on muscle glycogen increases with increasing exercise intensity and a direct relation between fatigue and depletion of muscle glycogen stores has been described.

1.Bergstrom J, Hultman E. Muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise: an enhancing factor localized to the muscle cells in man. Nature 1966;210:309–10.[Medline]

2.Bergstrom J, Hermansen L, Hultman E, Saltin B. Diet, muscle glycogen and physical performance. Acta Physiol Scand 1967;71:140–50.[Medline]

3.Bergstrom J, Hultman E. A study of the glycogen metabolism during exercise in man. Scand J Clin Lab Invest 1967;19:218–28.[Medline]


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Translation- we need to begin replacing glycogen immediatley!

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high glycemic"...bull****.

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First nice scientific terminology, secondly you are contradicting all science in this field!

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Infusion of several amino acids led to significant increases in plasma insulin. A mixture of 10 amino acids and equimolar quantities of arginine or leucine only were found to be the most potentiating. Floyd et al also observed a synergistic effect when glucose was administered intravenously with these amino acids.

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Furthermore, an enhanced postexercise insulin response would be of benefit to an athlete performing resistance exercise, since it may attenuate muscle protein degradation and/or increase muscle protein synthesis.

Roy, B. D., M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall, J. Fowles, and K. E. Yarasheski. Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training. J. Appl. Physiol. 82: 1882-1888, 1997


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In sports nutrition, the addition of an insulinotropic amino acid and protein mixture to carbohydrate drinks could represent a means of increasing postexercise glycogen synthesis rates, as was shown by Zawadzki et al (21), and was investigated by us in another study (22).

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SO, my post workout meal of choice is 4 servings of plain, cooked oatmeal

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The complete restoration of muscle glycogen after prolonged exercise can occur within 24 h, depending on the degree of glycogen depletion and provided that sufficient carbohydrates (CHO) are ingested (23, 24).

Keizer, H, Kuipers H, and Kranenburg GV. Influence of liquid and solid meals on muscle glycogen resynthesis, plasma fuel hormone response, and maximal physical working capacity. Int J Sports Med 8: 99-104, 1987[ISI][Medline].

Kochan, RG, Lamb DR, Lutz SA, Perrill CV, Reimann EM, and Schlender KK. Glycogen synthase activation in human skeletal muscle: effects of diet and exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab Gastrointest Physiol 237: E660-E666, 1979.


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Not only that oatmeal contains fat!!!!!!LOL

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Carbohydrate metabolism may be altered by the simultaneous ingestion of fats, as each substrate competes as an oxidative fuel source (20). Therefore, the addition of fat in the CHO-PRO feeding may have decreased glucose utilization, and a concomitant increase in the serum glucose concentration would be expected.

Randle, PJ, Garland PB, Hales CN, and Newslome EA. The glucose fatty-acid cycle. Its role in insulin sensitivity and the metabolic disturbances of diabetes mellitus. Lancet 1: 785-789, 1963

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dextrose or maltodextrin is not necessary

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LOL!

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At 0, 30, 60, and 90 min, the subjects received a beverage volume of 3.5 mL/kg to ensure a given dose of 0.8 g carbohydrate/kg (50% as glucose and 50% as maltodextrin) and 0.4 g/kg of an amino acid and protein (hydrolysate) mixture every hour. The compositions of all test drinks are listed in Table 1 .

Both glucose availability and insulin concentrations determine the rate of glucose uptake in skeletal muscle. Insulin stimulates glucose utilization by muscle cells through activation of glucose transport (GLUT4 translocation) and stimulation of intracellular enzymes regulating pathways for oxidative and nonoxidative glucose metabolism

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Glucose replacement studies uses this mixture frequently!


Let's look at another study some other clown brought up:

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When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis.

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Such as the case with complex carbs!

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The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response.

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And gastric emptying...

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However, when carbohydrate intake is high (&gt;/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (&lt;1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting

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All this does is back up the tapering techinque, this does not discredit simple carbs whatsoever, instead this entire study only furthers to back their use up!!

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A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates

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Which is why tapering and the proper amount of carbs must be considered.

I've only looked at the first page and if this is their best arguement, they've only confirmed my continued use of high GI carbs!

Venom
01-12-2004, 12:50 AM
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Not only that oatmeal contains fat!!!!!!LOL

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And fiber, which slows gastric emptying immensely:

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Gastric Emptying (great for dieting)






When fibers form viscous (thick) gels or hydrate (holding water) within the stomach, the release of the chyme (food that has been acted upon by the stomach juices, but has not yet been passed on into the intestines) from the stomach into the duodenum (first, or proximal portion of the small intestine) is delayed (slowed). Thus, nutrients remain in the stomach longer with these fibers than would occur in the absence of the ingested fiber. This effect creates a feeling of postprandial (after eating) satiety (fullness) as well as slows down the digestion process, because carbohydrates and lipids that remain in the stomach undergo no digestion in the stomach and must move into the small intestine for further digestion to occur. For those of you that are cutting, you can see how fiber will assist your cravings, and help you stay strict with your diet [14,24].



Scientists, J. Russell and P. Bass performed an experiment on the affect of fiber on gastric emptying rate. Here is a quote on the results [30,36]:



“Dietary fibers such as psyllium and guar gum have been shown to delay the gastric emptying of liquids and solids, presumably due to an increase in meal viscosity….Low-viscosity fiber meals emptied from the stomach rapidly (E 1/2 approximately 10 min) compared with the high-viscosity meals (E 1/2 approximately 40 min) [That's 4 times longer!]. “


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Read more on fiber here, Fiber Dynamics Part II (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/fiberdynamics2.htm)

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This is absolutely absurd. First the carbs are what is refueling your body, the protein is for repair. So already you show your ignorance. Moreover, the type of carb is even more important.

Also, there is a vital window post workout in which to begin replacing glycogen. This is even more profound for body builders as we train multiple days in a row!

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Yes indeed, Prez discussed glycogen replenishment in his pre-contest article. Oatmeal is a horrible choice.

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Jozsi et. al. in the journal of Sports medicine tested how well differing forms of carbohydrates would effect glycogen replenishment[29]. Here is a summary of their work:

1. Male Cyclists were fed approximately 3, 000 calories after training . The breakdown ratio was 65 % carbohydrate, 20 % fat, and 15 percent protein intake.

2. Participants were provided their carbohydrates from one of four sources. A. Maltodextrin( a complex carbohydrate that is easily digested, and has a high glycemic index ). B. Glucose( straight up blood sugar, very high GI! ) C. 100 percent waxy starch Amylopectin and D. 100 percent resistant starch Amylose. Amylopectin is rapidly absorbed and easily digested, Amylose is resistant starch and takes much longer to digest( like oatmeal ).

3. Results were as follows: The resistant starch increased muscle glycogen by +90.8 +/- 12.8 millimoles( a measure of concentration ) per kilogram of dry weight. The glucose produced more than double this result( ! ) with a +197.7 +/- 31.6 millimoles per kilogram of dry weight.
The amylopectin also produced an impressive increase by +171.8 +/- 37.1, and the maltodextrin produced an increase of +136.7 +/- 24.5 mmol.kg-1 d.w.

4. Conclusion: " In summary, glycogen resynthesis was attenuated following ingestion of starch with a high amylose content, relative to amylopectin or glucose[29]. "

Their conclusion is consistent with Burke et. al who also showed that less resistant, high GI rated CHO markedly replenished glycogen superiorly to low glycemic, resistant G.I. index carbs[6]. This was again confirmed by Coyle et. al. in which he found that high glycemic index foods replenished carbs faster than lower glycemic[10]. However, he also noted that intermediate glycemic foods augmented synthetic rates comparably to high glycemic. Thus, we can conclude from the above studies that moderate to high glycemic carbohydrates produce a greater rate of glycogen replenishment in skeletal muscle.



On a side note: it is vital for the bodybuilder, and athlete in general to utilize his or her weapons properly. Yes, high GI carbs replenish faster, and we will utilize them in this situation. However, for reasons such as maintaining insulin sensitivity, low GI carbs are a powerful weapon in normal dieting( carbohydrate supercomensation is certainly not a normal regimen! ). One must take advantage of times when insulin sensitivity is peaked, such as breakfast and post workout. By wasting these opportunities to utilize high glycemic carbs you are missing out on tremendous, and extremely( scientifically that is ) backed gains! In the near future we will show, that glycogen replenishment is only the tip of the ice burg of the post workout meal.



When I say high glycemic, aside from the post workout I would recommend sticking with starch oriented foods, such as rice, pasta's and sweet potatoes. For a more complete list of foods, I refer you to Joe Kings article here. Of course during the post workout meal, you will utilize Mr. Knowlden's methods laid out in the window of opportunity[32] as well as Venom's recommendations in his in depth discussion on the
subject[56]. During periods of intense glycogen replenishment, you will want to steer clear of fructose saturated foods such as strawberries. It is a well established fact, that such protocols are completely and utterly against everything an athlete wants to accomplish during these periods. In the journal of Nutrition and Metabolism Conlee et. al " compared the effectiveness of glucose and fructose feeding on restoring glycogen content after glycogen was decreased by exercise (90-min swim) or fasting -24 h[9]. " It was found that " After 2 h of recovery from either exercise or fasting there was no measurable glycogen repletion in red vastus lateralis muscle in response to fructose. " However, when supplying glucose there was a significant increase in glycogen storage in both the fasting and training groups. They of course concluded the obvious: " that fructose is a poor nutritional precursor for rapid glycogen restoration in muscle after exercise. " There are several reasons for the above results. One of which is that once fructose is absorbed it must first be escorted to the liver before being converted to glucose. This slows its ability to be utilized tremendously. Further, it first enhances liver stores, rather than muscular glycogen stores. Any protocol which utilizes this for glycogen replenishment is done so despite the vast amount of evidence against it.



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I will say that their program is optimal for glycogen depleting, however. /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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PW Shake( taken after training of course ) - You will utilize a shake that in no way replenishes glycogen stores. This is the one time I would recommend such an anti-progress meal. Whey Protein, flax / safflower mixture, and oatmeal. This is extremely conducive to depletion. Three cups of water.



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Ashkon
01-12-2004, 01:23 AM
Okay, I'll post only the scince behind it, see how it goes from here:

Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
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TW- GH is secreted by exercise up to 60 minutes post exercisewhether you have a large or small spike.


As for your theory of needinh high spikes of insulin to have growth:

Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: &lt; 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.
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quote:
Originally posted by bkman4
Go to JohnBerardi.com, and seach Solving the pw puzzle. That has more studies that say malto/dex is great for our purposes. The reason I take it immediately PW is to take advantage of my increased sensitivity at that time...therefore my body will need a minimum of insulin (THE most anabolic hormone)...What we are really trying to do is spike insulin there, when we are super sensitive to achieve a maximum anabolic state.(that might be unreachable if we didnt use simple carbs in that super sensitive state).

Bobo, telling me to re-read this thread is a bit insulting. It detracts from the rest of your stellar argument. If I'm so off base just tell me where you guys figured out that malto/dex Decreases insulin sensitivity. That seems to be why everyone here recommends against it.

Bobo's responce:
I'm very familiar with John Berardi and he is wrong. Your not thinking about this in the right way. First of all glycogen replenishment is biphasic. The first phase is insulin independent (study clearly states this in the thread) followed by a longer insulin dependent phase that last for hours. Conventional thinking helped by numerous marketing ads tell us we need to replenish glycogen as fast as we can and we need to creat a large spike to accomplish this. They are totally wrong. They have zero studies supporting this. THe studies they use say there is a greater glycogen replenishent (whic DOES NOT increase the RATE)with high GI and that is it. THey conclude in no way that the rate of protein synthesis is increased and just recently studies have shown that aminos, NOT insulin, are what triggers protein synthesis. THe point is that a large spike, or faster spike, is NOT needed.

Exercise induces sensitivity meaning that a lower GI carb will have a more pronounced insulin spike BECAUSE of the sensitivity. A high GI source will have the saem effect. Since there is an insulin INDEPENDENT stage and studies clearly show that not all glucose is being utlilized by the exercise (study clearly states that as well) the need for such a large spike is not needed. Insulin, even hyperinsulinemia, post exercise doe not cause a significant increase in protein synthesis (study clearly states).


As for type II diabetes, your asking for a study that hasn't really been conducted because it would be a lifetime study and the problems with this disease have only been recently realized (10-15 years ago) so most of the information is based on theory. But the theories are sound and logical. Whether resistance is temporary or chroniuc, its not healthy.


I was not trying to insult you but the questions you ask clearly show you haven't taken the time to read this thread, or the link provided that was simmlar in nature over at MM.

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Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: &lt; 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.

THis is why it gets frustrating because I've already posted this yet people still insist insulin is the key, when every study published in the last 6 months say amino's play and much more important part than insulin.

And before you say I recommened no insulin, which would be idiotic, oatmeal will give you a significant insulin spike (maybe even more overrall) but in a more stable and longer lasting way.
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"There are some instances, however, where a food has a low glycemic value but a high insulin index value. This applies to dairy foods and to some highly palatable energy-dense "indulgence foods." Some foods (such as meat, fish, and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin."

The New Glucose Revolution (New York: Marlowe and Company, 2003, pages 57-58

Venom
01-12-2004, 02:36 AM
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Okay, I'll post only the scince behind it


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Finally!

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oatmeal will give you a significant insulin spike (maybe even more overrall) but in a more stable and longer lasting way.

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I seriously hope your joking. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

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And before you say I recommened no insulin, which would be idiotic, oatmeal will give you a significant insulin spike (maybe even more overrall) but in a more stable and longer lasting way.
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"There are some instances, however, where a food has a low glycemic value but a high insulin index

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Fair enough. Let’s take a look!

Oatmeal with a GI of 60 in the insulin index--40!

In contrast, white bread (which is as simple as you get) has a GI of 100 and an insulin index of 100.

Once again, you have proven nothing!

Oatmeal has an extremely low GI, and insulin index. And that was the instant kind! Pure oats is about 20 points below that. And I must again refer to my fiber article, concerning its effects on insulin:

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Insulin sensitivity!



Insulin sensitivity is of great value to bodybuilders. Increased sensitivity promotes a much greater anabolic response to food consumption, while insulin resistance leads to elevated fat storage. In addition, insulin resistance can lead to the most common form of a disease, which inflicts more than 8 million people in the United States known as type 2-diabetes. With this in mind, it has been proven that fiber greatly enhances our bodies’ sensitivity to insulin. How this is achieved, will be shown subsequently. For more on the importance of insulin sensitivity, I refer to the following article, 13 Weeks To Hardcore Fat Burning - " The Diet "



But before we move on, lets discuss what diabetes is. Participants who became diabetic developed non-insulin dependent diabetes (also called adult-onset or type 2 diabetes), the most common form of the disease that afflicts 8 million people in the United States. High blood sugar (glucose) levels in type 2 diabetes results from [6,9]:



Decreased effect of insulin on peripheral tissue (insulin resistance),
Inadequate insulin production to control blood sugar (relative insulin deficiency).
A combined effect of the two. Diabetes occurs when the pancreas cannot produce sufficient insulin to manage blood glucose regulation.


Now, lets look how exactly fiber affects insulin production in the human body. To begin, for nutrients to be absorbed, they must move from the lumen (tube) of the small intestine through a glycoprotein water layer lying on top of the enterocytes (intestinal epithelium, which provides better absorption for intestines). The fiber-associated decreased diffusion rate of nutrients through this layer is probably due to an increased thickness of the unstirred water layer. In other words, the unstirred water layer becomes more resistant to nutrient movement, and without this movement nutrients cannot be absorbed into the enterocyte [12,24,25,26,31].



Another mechanism may also be responsible for decreased nutrient diffusion. Gums appear to slow glucose absorption by decreasing the convective movement of glucose within the intestinal lumen. Convective currents induced by peristaltic (wave like movements, caused by muscular contractions) movements are responsible for bringing nutrients from the lumen to the epithelial surface for absorption. Decreasing the solute movement also may help to explain the decreased absorption of amino acids and fatty acids caused by viscous fiber. Ingestion of viscous mucilaginous fibers such as guar gum, but also pectin and psyllium, have been shown to slow transit (transportation, moving through), delay glucose absorption, lower blood glucose concentrations, and affect hormonal response (such as insulin) to the absorbed nutrient. Such results are of great significance to warriors of the iron jungle. This shows that consuming dietary fiber, will promote a slow, and efficient nutrient absorption rate. Which in turn will resists high rapid bursts of insulin, which leads to fat storage, and resistance. This is also beneficial to individuals with diabetes mellitus and reduce postprandial blood glucose concentrations and insulin needs/response [31,35].



A possible explanation for a potential carbohydrate intake-diabetes link relates to the digestion rates of different carbohydrate sources. Low-fiber processed starches (and simple sugars in soft drinks) digest quickly and enter the blood at a relatively rapid rate (high glycemic index). Dietary fiber slows carbohydrate digestion, thus minimizing surges in blood glucose (in-effect lowering glycemic rate). The rapid increase in blood glucose that accompanies refined processed starch consumption (in contrast to the slow-release forms of high fiber, unrefined complex carbohydrates) increases insulin demand, stimulates overproduction of insulin by the pancreas, and accentuates hyperinsulinemial. Consistently eating such foods may eventually reduce the body's sensitivity to insulin (more resistant), thus requiring progressively greater insulin output to control blood sugar levels. Both bodybuilders, and diabetics would greatly benefit from fiber [35,36].



Here is a scary stat; about 25% of the population produces excessive insulin in response to rapidly absorbed carbohydrates. These insulin-resistant individuals may be at increased risk for obesity if they consistently eat carbohydrates that are absorbed rapidly. This increase in weight occurs because abnormal quantities of insulin facilitate glucose conversion to triglyceride (fat) by the liver, which then becomes stored as body fat in adipose tissue. If these observations prove correct, the obese are affected the most. This group shows the greatest insulin resistance and consequently, the greatest insulin response to a blood glucose challenge. Bodybuilders are not as prone to this disease; due to animalistic training sessions, and dedication to a strict diet. Nevertheless, consumption of fiber (especially if you have a family history for this disease) would help athletes avoid this. And as stated above, the anabolic results of muscular insulin sensitivity are invaluable [6].



Thus, To reduce the risks for type 2 diabetes and obesity, consumption of more slowly absorbed, unrefined complex carbohydrate foods (low glycemic index) provides a form of "slow-release" carbohydrate without producing rapid fluctuations in blood sugar. If rice, pasta, and bread remain the carbohydrate sources of choice, they should be consumed in unrefined form as brown rice and whole-grain pastas and breads, which contain higher contents of fiber. Such a dietary modification would greatly benefit bodybuilders, in their goal for obtaining freak, and maintaining a lean physique.



Dietary fiber also slows the rate of carbohydrate digestion causing slower absorption by the intestine. In addition, fiber may also decrease the total number of calories consumed in subsequent meals. Eating a fiber-rich breakfast, for example, decreased the total caloric intake during breakfast and a buffet-type lunch consumed 3.5 hours later. Dietary fiber also contains anabolic micronutrients, particularly magnesium, which may help to control insulin. Magnesium possibly increases the body's sensitivity to insulin, thus reducing the required level of insulin production [28,33,44].



There are many experiments, which show fiber enhances insulin sensitivity. Juntunen KS et al. has this to say [25], “High-fiber rye bread appears to enhance insulin secretion, possibly indicating improvement of b cell function.” McKeown NM et al. states [31], “The association between whole-grain intake and fasting insulin was attenuated after adjustment for dietary fiber and magnesium.” Concerning diabetes, Tabatabai A, Li S. from the results of several tests stated [26]:



“Dietary fiber shows promise in the management of type 2 DM. The inclusion of sufficient dietary fiber in a meal flattens the postprandial glycemic and insulinemic excursions and favorably influences plasma lipid levels in patients with type 2 DM. Water-soluble fiber appears to have a greater potential to reduce postprandial blood glucose, insulin, and serum lipid levels than insoluble fiber. Viscosity of the dietary fiber is important; the greater the viscosity, the greater the effect. Possible mechanisms for metabolic improvements with dietary fiber include delay of glucose absorption, increase in hepatic extraction of insulin, increased insulin sensitivity at the cellular level, and binding of bile acids. Patients with type 2 DM should increase their dietary fiber intake to 20 to 35 g/d and be aware of the considerations when increasing fiber intake.”



As stated above, magnesium shows great promise for improving insulin sensitivity. Here is a quote form Rodriguez-Moran M, and Guerrero-Romero F. on the results of there experiments [35].



”RESULTS:-At the end of the study, subjects who received magnesium supplementation showed significant higher serum magnesium concentration (0.74 +/- 0.10 vs. 0.65 +/- 0.07 mmol/l, P = 0.02) and lower HOMA-IR index (3.8 +/- 1.1 vs. 5.0 +/- 1.3, P = 0.005), fasting glucose levels (8.0 +/- 2.4 vs. 10.3 +/- 2.1 mmol/l, P = 0.01), and HbA(1c) (8.0 +/- 2.4 vs. 10.1 +/- 3.3%, P = 0.04) than control subjects. CONCLUSIONS:-Oral supplementation with MgCl(2) solution restores serum magnesium levels, improving insulin sensitivity and metabolic control in type 2 diabetic patients with decreased serum magnesium levels.”



Therefore, consuming fiber with starchy carbs such as bread, and having more fibrous sources of carbohydrates for instance oatmeal, will greatly reduce high insulin bursts, and promote more efficient use of this anabolic hormone [25,31,33,44].



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The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

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This is entirely false, and I saw no actually scientific study to support this claim, or a reference by this man, only a sentence stating so. Refer to the pre-contest article discussed in this thread.

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THis is why it gets frustrating because I've already posted this yet people still insist insulin is the key, when every study published in the last 6 months say amino's play and much more important part than insulin.

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This is a complete strawmen. The fact that amino acids play a vital role in protein synthesis adds or subtractes nothing from the anabolism of insulin.

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There was never an argument about High GI carbs being quicker than low GI carbs for glycogen resynthesis ; the argument was about protein synthesis .

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Let me end the argument then. Consider the following extensive study, which took all factors into account.

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Insulin clearly stimulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis in vitro. Surprisingly, this effect has been difficult to reproduce in vivo. As in vitro studies have typically used much higher insulin concentrations than in vivo studies, we examined whether these concentration differences could explain the discrepancy between in vitro and in vivo observations. In 14 healthy volunteers, we raised forearm insulin concentrations 1,000-fold above basal levels while maintaining euglycemia for 4 h. Amino acids (AA) were given to either maintain basal arterial (n = 4) or venous plasma (n = 6) AA or increment arterial plasma AA by 100% (n = 4) in the forearm. We measured forearm muscle glucose, lactate, oxygen, phenylalanine balance, and [3H]phenylalanine kinetics at baseline and at 4 h of insulin infusion. Extreme hyperinsulinemia strongly reversed postabsorptive muscle's phenylalanine balance from a net release to an uptake (P &lt; 0.001). This marked anabolic effect resulted from a dramatic stimulation of protein synthesis (P &lt; 0.01) and a modest decline in protein degradation. Furthermore, this effect was seen even when basal arterial or venous aminoacidemia was maintained. With marked hyperinsulinemia, protein synthesis increased further when plasma AA concentrations were also increased (P &lt; 0.05). Forearm blood flow rose at least twofold with the combined insulin and AA infusion (P &lt; 0.01), and this was consistent in all groups. These results demonstrate an effect of high concentrations of insulin to markedly stimulate muscle protein synthesis in vivo in adults, even when AA concentrations are not increased. This is similar to prior in vitro reports but distinct from physiological hyperinsulinemia in vivo where stimulation of protein synthesis does not occur. Therefore, the current findings suggest that the differences in insulin concentrations used in prior studies may largely explain the previously reported discrepancy between insulin action on protein synthesis in adult muscle in vivo vs. in vitro.

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In this study, the very high insulin concentrations previously shown to stimulate adult skeletal muscle protein synthesis in vitro provoked a similar action in the adult human forearm in vivo. Protein synthesis was strongly stimulated when amino acids were infused at any of the three doses tested. At the lowest dose infused, arterial amino acid concentrations were not changed, but venous amino acid concentrations fell. The latter mimics the cellular concentrations (14), which might also be expected to fall. Despite this, protein synthesis rates doubled (Table 2 and Fig. 2). This contrasts to findings with physiological hyperinsulinemia and euaminoacidemia, which leaves forearm protein synthesis unchanged or even decreased (38, 41). High concentrations of insulin (&gt;1,000 µU/ml) were also achieved in the study by Denne and colleagues (15). They observed that leg muscle proteolysis declined but saw no increase in protein synthesis. However, plasma amino acid concentrations were not maintained in that study, and the decline in amino acid concentrations with hyperinsulinemia may have obscured an effect.
In the present study, steady-state extreme hyperinsulinemia shifted forearm muscle phenylalanine balance from negative to strongly positive. This shift is more marked than reported with physiological hyperinsulinemia in human forearm or leg muscle, where insulin's inhibition of protein degradation accounted for the entire effect (21, 30, 38, 40, 41). In the forearm, raising insulin to four different levels throughout the physiological range (20-125 µU/ml) during euaminoacidemia shifted phenylalanine balance to modestly positive values (~10 nmol • min 1 • 100 ml 1) in all groups, suggesting a plateau effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia to retard proteolysis (38). The greater shift in the current study (even in groups 1 or 2 when plasma amino acid concentrations remained at basal) was primarily due to the marked stimulation of protein synthesis that was not previously seen at physiological insulin concentrations.
In only one human study was muscle protein synthesis reported to increase in response to physiological concentrations of insulin (9). In that study, protein synthesis was measured in leg muscle of six subjects, using both an arterial-venous difference method (as employed here) as well as a tissue biopsy technique. Good internal agreement was obtained between results seen with the arterial-venous difference method and the biopsy technique, both showing an enhancement of muscle protein synthesis by physiological hyperinsulinemia. Contrary to previous (6, 15, 30, 38, 41) or subsequent reports (21), the authors found no evidence for an effect of insulin to restrain proteolysis. No previous human limb balance study (including more than 60 subjects) has seen a stimulation of muscle protein synthesis by physiological hyperinsulinemia using the arterial-venous difference method (21, 27, 38, 41). Most have seen an effect of insulin on whole body and muscle proteolysis. In addition, other studies in both humans (40) and rodents (59) using muscle biopsies and estimating muscle protein synthesis using a variety of methods (including determining the labeling of the aminoacyl-tRNA) have also failed to show an effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia. Thus the results of Biolo and colleagues (9), although internally consistent, are divergent with all other in vivo studies, and we can not currently reconcile their unique findings.
The increases in protein synthesis seen with the higher rates of amino acid infusion (Figs. 2 and 3) indicate that raising plasma amino acid concentrations alone augments protein synthesis. This is in agreement with several previous human studies showing increased rates of whole body (10, 28) or skeletal muscle (7, 8, 46) protein synthesis in response to raised amino acid concentrations with or without added insulin. As these studies augmented amino acid concentrations simultaneously with physiological hyperinsulinemia, it was not possible to assess whether insulin had an independent effect from that of amino acids. We subsequently addressed this experimentally using a double forearm cannulation method. We observed that superimposing local, physiological hyperinsulinemia in one forearm during systemic amino acid infusion did not further stimulate muscle protein synthesis in the insulin-infused arm (21). The amino acid infusion rate (0.015 ml • min 1 • kg 1) in that study was the same as the highest dose used in the present study, and the arterial phenylalanine concentrations were higher than in the present study (113 ± 4 vs. 80 ± 7 µM; see Fig. 3). Therefore, the stimulation of protein synthesis to 90-150% above basal rates with marked hyperinsulinemia in the present study both under basal and hyperaminoacidemic conditions suggests that marked hyperinsulinemia has an effect separate from that of amino acids.
Protein degradation declined modestly in each of the three study groups in the current study (Fig. 2). This change (~20% decline overall) was statistically significant when observations for all three groups were pooled. In the previous human forearm studies, insulin was found to retard proteolysis by 25-40%. As proteolysis is estimated from the dilution of phenylalanine specific activity across the muscle bed, the high blood flows (vide infra) seen during the very high insulin infusion used here likely added variability to this measurement. That protein synthesis, the primary outcome variable, and net phenylalanine balance were significantly stimulated in each of the three study groups attests to a quantitatively greater (~100%) effect on synthesis with the use of high insulin concentrations.
Although the relative change in protein kinetics was similar in all three groups in the current study, the absolute rates of basal protein synthesis and degradation were lower in the 0.004 ml • min 1 • kg 1 group. Gender differences could partially explain this, as all four subjects were female in the 0.004 group, whereas the 0.007 and 0.015 ml • min 1 • kg 1 groups had a mix of male and female subjects.1 However, each subject was compared with his/her own baseline value, and a consistent and significant effect on protein synthesis was still observed in all three groups. If anything, our results may underestimate the effect of marked hyperinsulinemia to stimulate protein synthesis with euaminoacidemic conditions because of the large proportion of females in two of the groups.
It has been suggested that a stimulation of protein synthesis in vivo has been difficult to demonstrate in humans because basal insulin has already maximally stimulated protein synthesis. Three observations suggest that this may not be the case. First, in the current study, very high insulin concentrations do further stimulate protein synthesis. Second, as infusion of growth hormone (20) or of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I; see Refs. 19 and 21) acutely increases forearm muscle protein synthesis, synthesis rates are clearly not at a maximum. Third, in studies of insulin-deficient diabetic humans, acute replacement of insulin did not increase whole body or muscle protein synthesis (44, 47). Collectively, these data suggest that physiological increments in insulin do not augment bulk protein synthesis in humans.
In insulin-withdrawn streptozotocin diabetic rats, replacement of insulin rapidly restores protein synthetic rates in both heart and skeletal muscle (1, 2). Before treatment, these animals are severely catabolic (insulin withdrawn for up to 5 days), and it is quite possible that restoring basal insulin does affect protein synthesis in this setting. This may be a direct effect of insulin or an indirect effect achieved by restoring sensitivity to other growth factors such as IGF-I (31).
Marked hyperinsulinemia combined with amino acid infusion stimulated blood flow more than twofold (100-160%) in each of the three groups in the current study. Both insulin (4) and amino acids likely contributed to this, as generalized hyperaminoacidemia (21) or infusion of arginine (29) increases forearm blood flow. Importantly, physiological hyperinsulinemia in the presence of hyperaminoacidemia does not stimulate blood flow more than hyperaminoacidemia alone (21).
The reported stimulation of limb blood flow with physiological hyperinsulinemia ranges from 10 to 125% (5, 13, 30, 36, 38, 45, 52, 54). This variability involves many factors such as insulin infusion (local vs. systemic and single dose vs. sequential increments in insulin infusion dose), methodology (capacitance plethysmography vs. thermodilution used as well as variability between laboratories in employing a particular method), locale (forearm vs. leg), and muscle content of the limb studied (4, 54). Most studies reporting a stimulation of blood flow above 50% with physiological hyperinsulinemia have used a sequential increase of insulin infusion in the same subject (5, 36, 52).
As our previous studies have extensively used the same procedure of capacitance plethysmography in the forearm, it seems most logical to contrast our current blood flow results with our past results. We previously observed that insulin at five different concentrations within the physiological range did not stimulate blood flow &gt;25%, and this was only in the high physiological range (27). Additionally, we studied the effects of hyperaminoacidemia (0.015 ml • kg 1 • min 1 balanced amino acid infusion) with or without insulin on forearm flow. Physiological hyperinsulinemia did not stimulate blood flow beyond hyperaminoacidemia alone. Of interest, in that study and several others, we noted that local IGF-I strongly stimulated flow when amino acids were elevated or remained at basal levels (21). Thus the two- to threefold stimulation of blood flow in the current study with extreme hyperinsulinemia even when amino acids remained at basal levels is unlike physiological hyperinsulinemia and similar to flow changes provoked by local forearm IGF-I infusion (19, 21).
The stimulation of protein synthesis in the current study is consistent with previous in vitro studies of isolated muscle incubated with insulin at high concentrations. As comparable effects of insulin have generally not been seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations (27, 30, 38, 41, 40, 59), our results suggest that very high insulin concentrations may be required. An exception is in young rats in which in vivo studies have demonstrated a stimulatory action of physiological insulin concentrations on muscle protein synthesis (25, 26). However, these effects are not seen in older animals (3, 11, 39) or, with one exception (9), in adult humans. Thus the muscle's sensitivity to insulin's stimulatory action on protein synthesis may decline with aging.
In the current study, the effects of extreme hyperinsulinemia to stimulate protein synthesis, enhance oxygen consumption, markedly increase blood flow, and induce a strongly positive phenylalanine balance are each similar to the actions of locally infused IGF-I in human forearm (19, 21) and differ from the effects seen with physiological hyperinsulinemia concentrations (27, 30, 38, 41). As the insulin concentrations achieved in the current study were 4-7 × 10 8 M (100-fold above the physiological range), stimulation of the IGF-I receptor by insulin is entirely plausible [dissociation constant (Kd) of insulin for the IGF-I receptor ~10 8 compared with Kd 10 10 for IGF-I (58)]. Furthermore, as the mitogenic effect of insulin (10 6) in vitro is mediated via the IGF-I receptor rather than the insulin receptor (55), an analogous effect with protein synthesis is possible. If this is the case, our results introduce a necessary caution to the interpretation of the many in vitro studies documenting an effect of high concentrations of insulin to increase bulk protein synthesis in adult animals (see Refs. 31 and 35 for reviews). With few exceptions (18, 50, 51), the insulin concentrations used in these studies (generally 2 mU/ml) are in a range in which effects of insulin mediated by the IGF-I receptor or hybrid IGF-I/insulin receptors (48, 49) could complicate data interpretation. As the current study's aim was only to determine if extreme hyperinsulinemia could reproduce in vivo the stimulation of protein synthesis seen with similar concentrations in vitro, further research is needed to elucidate if protein synthesis is indeed being stimulated via IGF-I signaling pathways.
In summary, these results indicate that insulin at high concentrations strongly stimulates muscle protein synthesis in the human forearm. This effect is quite consistent with the action of insulin described in a number of in vitro studies using similar concentrations of insulin but distinct from what is observed with physiological hyperinsulinemia. Therefore, much of the discrepancy previously reported between insulin action on protein synthesis in vivo vs. in vitro may result directly from differences in insulin concentrations used. In addition to stimulating protein synthesis, high-dose insulin resembles the action of IGF-I observed previously (19, 21). As IGF-I receptors can be stimulated by high concentrations of insulin, the present results together with findings from in vitro studies raise the possibility that some or all of insulin's action to stimulate protein synthesis may be mediated by pathways other than the insulin receptor.

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Note that this was in 'Vivo' and demonstrated that high insulin levels were needed to get the job done.

And here are some references to keep your buddies busy (there are plenty more if needed):

1. Ashford, A. J., and V. M. Pain. Effect of diabetes on the rates of synthesis and degradation of ribosomes in rat muscle and liver in vivo. J. Biol. Chem. 261: 4059-4065, 1986[Abstract/Free Full Text].

2. Ashford, A. J., and V. M. Pain. Insulin stimulation of growth in diabetic rats: synthesis and degradation of ribosomes and total tissue protein in skeletal muscle and heart. J. Biol. Chem. 261: 4066-4070, 1986[Abstract/Free Full Text].

3. Baillie, A. G. S., and P. J. Garlick. Attenuated responses of muscle protein synthesis to fasting and insulin in adult female rats. Am. J. Physiol. 262 (Endocrinol. Metab. 25): E1-E5, 1992[Abstract/Free Full Text].

4. Baron, A. D. Hemodynamic actions of insulin. Am. J. Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): E187-E202, 1994[Abstract/Free Full Text].

5. Baron, A. D., H. O. Steinberg, H. Chaker, R. Leaming, A. Johnson, and G. Brechtel. Insulin-mediated vasodilation contributes to both insulin sensitivity and responsiveness in lean humans. J. Clin. Invest. 96: 786-792, 1995[Medline].

6. Barrett, E. J., J. H. Revkin, L. H. Young, B. L. Zaret, R. Jacob, and R. A. Gelfand. An isotopic method for in vivo measurement of muscle protein synthesis and degradation. Biochem. J. 245: 223-228, 1987[Medline].

7. Bennet, W. M., A. A. Connacher, C. M. Scrimgeour, R. T. Jung, and M. J. Rennie. Euglycemic hyperinsulinemia augments amino acid uptake by leg tissues during hyperaminoacidemia. Am. J. Physiol. 259 (Endocrinol. Metab. 22): E185-E194, 1990[Abstract/Free Full Text].

8. Bennet, W. M., A. A. Connacher, C. M. Scrimgeour, and M. J. Rennie. The effect of amino-acid infusion on leg protein turnover assessed by L-[15N]phenylalanine and L-[1-13C]leucine exchange. Eur. J. Clin. Invest. 20: 37-46, 1990.

9. Biolo, G., R. Y. D. Fleming, and R. R. Wolfe. Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal muscle. J. Clin. Invest. 95: 811-819, 1995[Medline].

10. Castellino, P., L. Luzi, D. C. Simonson, M. Haymond, and R. A. DeFronzo. Effect of insulin and plasma amino acid concentrations on leucine metabolism in man. J. Clin. Invest. 80: 1784-1793, 1987[Medline].

11. Dardevet, D., C. Sornet, D. Attaix, V. E. Baracos, and J. Grizard. Insulin-like growth factor-I and insulin resistance in skeletal muscle of adult and old rats. Endocrinology 134: 1475-1484, 1994[Abstract].

12. DeFronzo, R. A., J. D. Tobin, and R. Andres. Glucose clamp technique, a method for quantifying insulin secretion and resistance. Am. J. Physiol. 237 (Endocrinol. Metab. Gastrointest. Physiol. 6): E214-E223, 1979.

13. De Haan, C. H. A., F. M. H. van Dielen, A. J. H. M. Houben, P. W. de Leeuw, F. C. Huvers, J. G. R. De Mey, B. H. R. Wolffenbuttel, and N. C. Schaper. Peripheral blood flow and noradrenaline responsiveness: the effect of physiologic hyperinsulinemia. Cardiovasc. Res. 34: 192-198, 1997[Medline].

14. Del Prato, S., R. DeFronzo, P. Castellino, J. Wahren, and A. Alvestrand. Regulation of amino acid metabolism by epinephrine. Am. J. Physiol. 258 (Endocrinol. Metab. 21): E878-E887, 1990[Abstract/Free Full Text].

15. Denne, S. C., E. A. Liechty, Y. M. Liu, G. Brechtel, and A. D. Baron. Proteolysis in skeletal muscle and whole body in response to euglycemic hyperinsulinemia in normal adults. Am. J. Physiol. 261 (Endocrinol. Metab. 24): E809-E814, 1991[Abstract/Free Full Text].

16. Flakoll, P. J., M. Kulaylat, M. Frexes-Steed, H. Hourani, L. L. Brown, J. O. Hill, and N. N. Abumrad. Amino acids augment insulin's suppression of whole body proteolysis. Am. J. Physiol. 257 (Endocrinol. Metab. 20): E839-E847, 1989[Abstract/Free Full Text].

17. Fluckey, J. D., T. C. Vary, L. S. Jefferson, W. J. Evans, and P. A. Farrell. Insulin stimulation of protein synthesis in rat skeletal muscle following resistance exercise is maintained with advancing age. J. Gerontol. B Psychol. Sci. Soc. Sci. 51: B323-B330, 1996.

18. Frayn, K. N., and P. F. May****. Regulation of protein metabolism by a physiological concentration of insulin in mouse soleus and extensor digitorum longus muscles. Biochem. J. 184: 323-330, 1979[Medline].

19. Fryburg, D. A. Insulin-like growth factor I exerts growth hormone- and insulin-like actions on human muscle protein metabolism. Am. J. Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): E331-E336, 1994[Abstract/Free Full Text].

20. Fryburg, D. A., R. A. Gelfand, and E. J. Barrett. Growth hormone acutely stimulates muscle protein synthesis in normal humans. Am. J. Physiol. 260 (Endocrinol. Metab. 23): E499-E504, 1991[Abstract/Free Full Text].

21. Fryburg, D. A., L. A. Jahn, S. A. Hill, D. M. Oliveras, and E. J. Barrett. Insulin and insulin-like growth factor-I enhance human skeletal muscle protein anabolism during hyperaminoacidemia by different mechanisms. J. Clin. Invest. 96: 1722-1729, 1995[Medline].

22. Fukagawa, N. K., K. L. Minaker, J. W. Rowe, M. N. Googman, D. W. Matthews, D. M. Bier, and V. R. Young. Insulin-mediated reduction of whole body protein breakdown: dose-response effects on leucine metabolism in postabsorptive man. J. Clin. Invest. 76: 2306-2311, 1985[Medline].

23. Fukagawa, N. K., K. L. Minaker, V. R. Young, and J. W. Rowe. Insulin dose-dependent reductions in plasma amino acids in man. Am. J. Physiol. 250 (Endocrinol. Metab. 13): E13-E17, 1986[Abstract/Free Full Text].

24. Fulks, R. M., J. B. Li, and A. L. Goldberg. Effects of insulin, glucose, amino acids on protein turnover in rat diaphragm. J. Biol. Chem. 250: 290-298, 1975[Abstract].

25. Garlick, P. J., and I. Grant. Amino acid infusion increases the sensitivity of muscle protein synthesis in vivo to insulin. Biochem. J. 254: 579-584, 1988[Medline].

26. Garlick, P. J., V. R. Preedy, and P. J. Reeds. Regulation of protein turnover in vivo by insulin and amino acids. In: Intracellular Protein Catabolism, edited by E. A. Khairallah, J. S. Bond, and J. W. C. Bird. New York: Liss, 1985, p. 555-564.

27. Gelfand, R. A., and E. J. Barrett. Effect of physiologic hyperinsulinemia on skeletal muscle protein synthesis and breakdown in man. J. Clin. Invest. 80: 1-6, 1987[Medline].

28. Gelfand, R. A., M. G. Glickman, R. Jacob, R. S. Sherwin, and R. A. DeFronzo. Removal of infused amino acids by splanchnic leg tissues in man. Am. J. Physiol. 250 (Endocrinol. Metab. 13): E407-E413, 1986[Abstract/Free Full Text].

29. Giugliano, D., R. Marfella, G. Verrazzo, R. Acampora, L. Coppola, D. Cozzolino, and F. D'Onofrio. The vascular effects of L-arginine in humans: the role of endogenous insulin. J. Clin. Invest. 99: 433-438, 1997[Abstract/Free Full Text].

30. Heslin, M. J., E. Newman, R. F. Wolf, P. W. T. Pisters, and M. F. Brennan. Effect of hyperinsulinemia on whole body and skeletal muscle leucine carbon kinetics in humans. Am. J. Physiol. 262 (Endocrinol. Metab. 25): E911-E918, 1992[Abstract/Free Full Text].

31. Jacob, R., X. Hu, D. Niederstock, S. Hasan, P. H. McNulty, R. S. Sherwin, and L. H. Young. IGF-I stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in the awake rat: permissive role of insulin and amino acids. Am. J. Physiol. 270 (Endocrinol. Metab. 33): E60-E66, 1996[Abstract/Free Full Text].

31a. Jahn, L. A., E. J. Barrett, T. Spraggins, M. Genco, L. Im, and D. A. Fryburg. Effect of gender on forearm muscle metabolism (Abstract). Med. Sci. Sports Exercise, Suppl. 5: 93, 1997.

32. Jefferson, L. S., J. O. Koehler, and H. E. Morgan. Effect of insulin on protein synthesis in skeletal muscle of an isolated perfused preparation of rat hemicorpus. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 69: 816-820, 1972[Medline].

33. Jefferson, L. S., J. B. Li, and S. R. Rannels. Regulation by insulin of amino acid release and protein turnover in the perfused rat hemicorpus. J. Biol. Chem. 252: 1476-1483, 1977[Abstract].

34. Karinch, A. M., S. R. Kimball, T. C. Vary, and L. S. Jefferson. Regulation of eukaryotic initiation factor-2B activity in muscle of diabetic rats. Am. J. Physiol. 264 (Endocrinol. Metab. 27): E101-E108, 1993[Abstract/Free Full Text].

35. Kimball, S. R., T. C. Vary, and L. S. Jefferson. Regulation of protein synthesis by insulin. Annu. Rev. Physiol. 56: 321-348, 1994[Medline].

36. Laasko, M., S. V. Edelman, G. Brechtel, and A. D. Baron. Decreased effect of insulin to stimulate skeletal muscle blood flow in obese man. J. Clin. Invest. 85: 1844-1852, 1990[Medline].

37. Lin, T. A., X. Kong, T. A. J. Haystead, P. Arnim, G. Belsham, N. Sonenberg, and J. C. Lawrence. PHAS-1 as a link between mitogen-activated protein kinase and translation initiation. Science 266: 653-656, 1994[Medline].

38. Louard, R. J., D. A. Fryburg, R. A. Gelfand, and E. J. Barrett. Insulin sensitivity of protein and glucose metabolism in human forearm skeletal muscle. J. Clin. Invest. 90: 2348-2354, 1992[Medline].

39. McNulty, P. H., L. H. Young, and E. J. Barrett. Response of rat heart and skeletal muscle protein in vivo to insulin and amino acid infusion. Am. J. Physiol. 264 (Endocrinol. Metab. 27): E958-E965, 1993[Abstract/Free Full Text].

40. McNurlan, M. A., P. Essen, A. Thorell, A. G. Calder, S. E. Anderson, O. Ljungquist, A. Sandgren, I. Grant, I. Thader, P. E. Ballmer, J. Wernerman, and P. J. Garlick. Response of protein synthesis in human skeletal muscle to insulin: an investigation with L-[2H5]phenylalanine. Am. J. Physiol. 267 (Endocrinol. Metab. 30): E102-E108, 1994[Abstract/Free Full Text].

41. Moller-Loswick, A. C., H. Zachrisson, A. Hyltander, U. Korner, D. E. Matthews, and K. Lundholm. Insulin selectively attenuates breakdown of nonmyofibrillar proteins in peripheral tissues of normal men. Am. J. Physiol. 266 (Endocrinol. Metab. 29): E645-E652, 1994[Abstract/Free Full Text].

42. Morgan, H. E., L. S. Jefferson, E. B. Wolpert, and D. E. Rannels. Regulation of protein synthesis in heart muscle. II. Effect of amino acid levels and insulin on ribosomal aggregation. J. Biol. Chem. 246: 2163-2170, 1971[Abstract/Free Full Text].

43. Mosoni, L., M. Houlier, P. P. Mirand, G. Bayle, and J. Grizard. Effect of amino acids alone or with insulin on muscle and liver protein synthesis in adult and old rats. Am. J. Physiol. 264 (Endocrinol. Metab. 27): E614-E620, 1993[Abstract/Free Full Text].

44. Nair, K. S., G. C. Ford, and D. Halliday. Effect of intravenous insulin treatment on in vivo whole body leucine kinetics and oxygen consumption in insulin-deprived type I diabetic patients. Metabolism 36: 491-495, 1987[Medline].

45. Natali, A., G. Buzzigoli, S. Taddei, D. Santoro, M. Cerri, P. Pedrinelli, and E. Ferrannini. Effects of insulin on hemodynamics and metabolism in human forearm. Diabetes 39: 490-500, 1990[Abstract].

46. Newman, E., M. J. Heslin, R. F. Wolf, P. T. W. Pisters, and M. F. Brennan. The effect of systemic hyperinsulinemia with concomitant infusion of amino acids on skeletal muscle protein turnover in the human forearm. Metabolism 43: 70-78, 1994[Medline].

47. Pacy, P. J., K. S. Nair, C. Ford, and D. Halliday. Failure of insulin infusion to stimulate fractional muscle protein synthesis in type I diabetic patients. Diabetes 338: 618-624, 1989.

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49. Pessin, J. E., and A. L. Frattali. Structure-function properties of insulin/IGF-I hybrid receptors. In: Molecular Biology of Diabetes, edited by D. LeRoith, and B. Draznin. Totowa, NJ: Humana, 1994, pt. II, p. 413-426.

50. Stirewalt, W. S., R. B. Low, and J. M. Slaiby. Insulin sensitivity and responsiveness of epitrochlearis and soleus muscles from fed and starved rats. Biochem. J. 227: 355-362, 1985[Medline].

51. Sugden, P. H., and S. J. Fuller. Regulation of protein turnover in skeletal and cardiac muscle. Biochem. J. 273: 21-37, 1991[Medline].

52. Tack, C. J. J., A. E. P. Schefman, J. L. Willems, T. Thien, J. A. Lutterman, and P. Smits. Direct vasodilator effects of physiological hyperinsulinemia in human skeletal muscle. Eur. J. Clin. Invest. 26: 772-778, 1996[Medline].

53. Tessari, P., R. Trevisan, S. Inchiostro, G. Bioli, R. Nosadini, S. V. De Kreutzenberg, E. Duner, A. Tiengo, and G. Crepaldi. Dose-response curves of effects of insulin on leucine kinetics in humans. Am. J. Physiol. 251 (Endocrinol. Metab. 14): E334-E342, 1986[Abstract/Free Full Text].

54. Utriainen, T., R. Malmstrom, S. Makimattila, and H. Yki-Jarvinen. Methodological aspects, dose-response characteristics and causes of interindividual variation in insulin stimulation of limb blood flow in normal subjects. Diabetologia 38: 555-564, 1995[Medline].

55. Van Wyk, J., D. Graves, S. Casella, and S. Jacobs. Evidence from monoclonal antibody studies that insulin stimulates deoxyribonucleic acid synthesis through the type I somatomedin receptor. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 61: 639-643, 1985[Abstract].

56. Watt, P., Y. Lindsay, C. Scrimgeour, P. Chien, J. Gibson, D. Taylor, and M. Rennie. Isolation of aminoacyl-tRNA and its labeling with stable-isotope tracers, use in studies of human tissue protein synthesis. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 88: 5892-5896, 1991[Abstract].

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Venom
01-12-2004, 02:46 AM
And on your costil reference (which showed zero evidence to prove your point) guess what the date was? 1985! And what was the date of my journal, 'September 2002' Try and keep up to date next time, that's two decades behind.

Ashkon
01-12-2004, 02:50 AM
one thing i'm certain of, is that i feel a much greater soreness the following day since i'v been taking oatmeal. The soreness was not as great as when i consumed simple carbs pw. I'm leaning towards dex/melt

Venom
01-12-2004, 02:52 AM
Also, we have not even touched on the utter simplicity, and ridiculous of their recommendations.

They do not even take into consideration oxidive stress, oral dehydration, electrolyte balance, among other necessities. I implore to study these journal entries:

Acute &amp; Chronic Endocrine Responses to Exercise Induced Disruptions in Homeostasis Part One - Exercise Endocrinology Principles and Catecholamines (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/exerciseendocronology1.htm)

Effect of Plasma Volume on Myofibril Hydration, Nutrient Delivery, and Athletic Performance (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/hydration.htm)

Role of Anaerobic Post-Workout Antioxidant Supplementation in Correspondence to Exercise Induced Oxidative Stress. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine03/freeradicals.htm)

Along with the others mentioned above, and our nutrition section.

Venom
01-12-2004, 02:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
one thing i'm certain of, is that i feel a much greater soreness the following day since i'v been taking oatmeal. The soreness was not as great as when i consumed simple carbs pw. I'm leaning towards dex/melt

[/ QUOTE ]

Good job! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

mr.selfdestruct
01-12-2004, 03:05 AM
SHUT DOWN! Holy crap thats a lot of references! Good job Venom, you show those ignorant *******s who's best. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Venom
01-12-2004, 03:13 AM
lol /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Arkades
01-12-2004, 08:23 AM
Where do you start out if you want to learn like the basics of bodybuilding, and then progress further into the more advanced stuff later?

frankenstein
01-12-2004, 10:09 AM
you guys really know your s**t. color me impressed. anyone notice that the guys arguing also run a steroid website. for me, it totally disqualified anything they said. (well that AND the fact that you ripped their opinions (not facts) to shreds. thank GOD that there is ABC to dole out FACTS, not perpetuate opinions that become myths that people try to pass off as the truth.

"just a couple of squirts a day". ugh.

PsychoJr
01-12-2004, 11:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Hard to know what to believe these days, but I trust the mods here (and that's a big deal, considering I'm trusting them with MY body!).

[/ QUOTE ]

And you can trust them with your soul too!

[ QUOTE ]
That kind of garbage can influence people on other boards, but you cannot slip that trash past us here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Drat, we've tried!

Ashkon
01-12-2004, 02:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hard to know what to believe these days, but I trust the mods here (and that's a big deal, considering I'm trusting them with MY body!).

[/ QUOTE ]

And you can trust them with your soul too!

[ QUOTE ]
That kind of garbage can influence people on other boards, but you cannot slip that trash past us here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Drat, we've tried!

[/ QUOTE ]

opinions could be actually quite helpfull. I agree that bb.com's forum members are alot less experienced and amatures, but for an experienced person such as I, I will not illiminate the oatmeal untill i tried dex/mel + whey and i felt more recovered and refreshed on my following workout. For those that thought they "shut me down", you did not. I was open minded on this subject and the reason I favored abc to discuss this issue was for futher knowledge towards it since the oat yet didn't make much sence to me.

Also, this discussion has become very popular not only in bb.com forumes but other forums such as avantlabs.

I am sure that those of you who consider taking dex/melt over oat has never tried taking oat instead and have not experienced the effects. Let us put science aside since we may still have not cleared out all the desired pathways for the recovery post workout and pray that Ashkon will feel refreshed and satisfied after his today's crazy ham/quad workout. Since i'v tried both, i'll make sure i'll post my results at most in several days. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

chaw.

unreal
01-12-2004, 03:34 PM
a complete joke, way to rip it apart Yu!

Venom
01-12-2004, 03:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Where do you start out if you want to learn like the basics of bodybuilding, and then progress further into the more advanced stuff later?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just start reading JHR.

Tuf
01-12-2004, 03:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that those of you who consider taking dex/melt over oat has never tried taking oat instead and have not experienced the effects.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have. I had a complex carb + protein post-workout for months. However, after reading the "Window of Opportunity," I felt it would be completely ignorant for me to continue and I immediately started to follow the protocol in the article.

[ QUOTE ]
2. You will get fat.(PS- I've spiked my way to 7% BF!)

[/ QUOTE ]
Like OldSchool, since I started spiking my insulin post-workout, I have consistently decreased my body fat percentage, whether cutting or bulking. I dropped between seven and eight percentage points in about ten months, and that timeframe included two bulk cycles.

AndrewWard
01-12-2004, 04:25 PM
ABC ARE THE KING OF BODYBUILDING INFORMATION!
HAIL, HAIL, HAIL
lol

ZachE84
01-12-2004, 04:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I am sure that those of you who consider taking dex/melt over oat has never tried taking oat instead and have not experienced the effects. Let us put science aside since we may still have not cleared out all the desired pathways for the recovery post workout and pray that Ashkon will feel refreshed and satisfied after his today's crazy ham/quad workout. Since i'v tried both, i'll make sure i'll post my results at most in several days. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

No, lets not put science aside. Just because you may feel more refreshed, etc, means nothing. Smoking weed makes you feel good...your point just makes no sense.

Adam Knowlden
01-12-2004, 06:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No, lets not put science aside.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If you want to convince us we want scientific evidence not your personal emotional state post workout.

Tuf is documented proof of a spike post workout.

[ QUOTE ]
I will not illiminate the oatmeal untill i tried dex/mel + whey and i felt more recovered and refreshed on my following workout.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just note that this is a personal choice, not backed by any science.

[ QUOTE ]
For those that thought they "shut me down", you did not

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do what you want, I could care less. It's your body, I'm not trying to "shut you down". I'm not making a profit or selling anything to persuade you, I'm telling you what the science shows. JHR has stated that everything we present is scientific, and as such scientific statements can change if other evidence presents itself. If that is the case here present it.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, this discussion has become very popular not only in bb.com forumes but other forums such as ([---]).


[/ QUOTE ]

Also stating other sites discuss the topics means little to your arguement.

Another fault is that many of these sites illogically associate: <font color="red">Drugs/Prohormone discussion = advanced body building </font>. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that those of you who consider taking dex/melt over oat has never tried taking oat instead and have not experienced the effects.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! That's quit an assumption to make. You are talking to many experienced lifters here who have tried about every body building diet known.

[ QUOTE ]
Let us put science aside

[/ QUOTE ]

No thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
we may still have not cleared out all the desired pathways for the recovery post workout

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there are more studies to be done, within studying the proper dosaging and timing of quality high GI carbs post workout.

Certainly fat and fiber is not the way.

President Wilson
01-12-2004, 09:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Let us put science aside

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the only way a person can utilize these wholly unsupported protocols( fat, fiber, oatmeal etc. PW ).

aquariyums
08-09-2005, 06:01 PM
Maybe, but they have the cheapest prices on supplements around. I've been doing buisness with them for years and don't plan to change.

JonniP
08-09-2005, 06:34 PM
Man i stopped looking at other sites a loooonng time ago! ABC has articles that are way to deep to be nonsese, if yall supplied to the UK thats United Kingdom /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif id buy from you too !

Kasaz
08-09-2005, 06:44 PM
Just so you know xxx.com does not even come close to the cheapest supplements around. Trust me before I decided to buy from this site regardless of the increased price to pay them back for all of the great info I recieved I could take the bodybuilding.com supplements and get another 5% off. Of course I could get 5% off of the cheapest supplements on the net as long as I had a link. So that site isn't worth going to for bad info or supplements.

Adam Knowlden
08-09-2005, 09:47 PM
Thanks for the kind words fellas, but lets not bash other bodybuilding sites. It doesn't demonstrate a professional tone for ABC.

To all of our customers, thank you.

Your purchases are what is making this site possible.