Where was Jesus during...

[FJ0]

Question for all you theologians... /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The question has come upon a few of my boys in our bible study when we have discussions about things we don't understand about the Bible. Many of us were unsure as to where Jesus was during the 3 days he was dead.

Some of us say he was in hell because he was paying for the sins of man that he took upon himself, and defeated Satan.
I say he couldn't have been, because he told the dude next to him on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise." He couldn't say that if He wasn't gonna be there Himself.
Some say that heaven hasn't been established yet and God's timetable is different from ours so today may mean something else.
Others say he went to hell for a few hours and got the key (somethin like that).
Others say he went straight to heaven.


Can anyone shine any light on this gray subject?

Another question similar to that, where was Lazarus during the 4 days he was dead?

Thanks a lot

[Adam Knowlden]

Here is a quick overview. I can get more detailed later.

The blood of bulls and rams does not wash away sins, it covers it up.

Before Jesus died, no one was in heaven. For God can not dwell in the presence of sin.

Everyone went to hades. Hades is like the local jail. Gehenna is the final prison, the lake of fire.

But there is a comfort side and a torment side in hades.

Jesus descended to hades preached to the prisoners and took those were covered by the blood of bulls and rams to heaven.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Before Jesus died, no one was in heaven. For God can not dwell in the presence of sin.

Everyone went to hades. Hades is like the local jail. Gehenna is the final prison, the lake of fire.

But there is a comfort side and a torment side in hades.

Jesus descended to hades preached to the prisoners and took those were covered by the blood of bulls and rams to heaven.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Gehena is the lake of fire, the final resting place for all sinners, but hades is where all sinners are right now. Like O.S said, there used to be inhabitants in the comfort side of hades, that's where Abraham and Lazereth were. But Christ went there, and lead captivity captive!

Psalms 68:15-21
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:2-11
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

And Jesus said:

Matthew 12:38-40
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Here is another awesome prophecy on Christ descending into Hades to free the captives.

Proverbs 30:1-6
1 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal, 2 Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man. 3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy. 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name [I know the answer. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif ], if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

And Paul quotes this too:

Romans 10:6-11
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So now, the only people in hades are sinners, waiting to be placed in the lake of fire, or Gehenna.

You won't notice this in an English version though, because they use the words Gehena and hades interchangeably; you have to look in the Hebrew and Greek.

In revelation we see those in hell--hades--evacuated, judged and going to Gehenna--the lake of fire:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Here is a quote from the man, Jack DR. JACK VAN IMPE explaining this:

Verse 11-15: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, fromwhose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no placefor them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and thebooks were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in thebooks, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were init; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and theywere judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were castinto the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not foundwritten in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again John says, I saw. The term is found thirty-seven times in this book.What a privilege was his! This time he views the gloomiest hour of history—the judgment of the wicked—as well as Christ sitting upon a white throne.White is the symbol of purity, justice, and holiness in Scripture. Thoughyour sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow (Isaiah 1:18). His wifehath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayedin fine linen, clean and white (chapter 19, verses 7 and 8).

Since "white" stands for all that is honorable and right, what does itsymbolize? Integrity—for Christ, Who is the truth (John 14:6), is himselfthe Judge. Notice that the term is Great White Throne. This pictures a greatjudgment that is about to fall on those who have rejected the "so greatsalvation" question (see Hebrews 2:3).

How does one know that the tender, loving Jesus is the One who sits upon thethrone as Judge? The answer is found in John 5:22: For the Father judgeth noman, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. Again, the Father hathgiven him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man(John 5:27). The One raised from the dead—the Lord Jesus Christ—is theJudge, according to Acts 17:31: [For] he hath appointed a day, in the whichhe will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised himfrom the dead. That moment is now before us!

What a solemn scene as unregenerate mankind comes face to face with God forthe investigation of all their evil deeds. Every transgressor is present:presidents and paupers, high society snobs and skid row derelicts. Yes, thisgroup includes every Christ-rejecter of the ages, small and great, rich andpoor, free and bond. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in thewhich all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life [the firstresurrection]; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of****ation [the resurrection for judgement] (John 5:28,29). Make no mistakeabout it, there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just andunjust (Acts 24:15).

As the unsaved stand before a holy God, the books are opened. Yes, He hasrecord of every wicked deed sinners have ever committed. Nothing remainshidden. Adultery, abortion, drunkenness, drug addiction, harlotry, hatred,lawlessness, murder, rebellion, sexual promiscuity, wife-swapping, and everyother abominable practice is then exposed in detail.

How is all this possible? God is both omniscient (all knowing) andomnipotent (all-powerful). The psalmist said in chapter 139, verses 1 and 2,0 Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting andmine uprising. God knows everything about every member of the human race.God adds, I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them(Ezekiel 11:5). I know when you have eyes full of adultery, and that cannotcease from sin (2 Peter 2:14). I know when your tongue is about to curse,For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest italtogether (Psalm 139:4). I the Lord search the heart (Jeremiah 17:10). Thisstatement is extremely important, For out of the heart proceed evilthoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness,blasphemies (Matthew 15:19).

God’s books will be totally accurate because He sees every move humans make:The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth (2 Chronicles16:9). All things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom wehave to do (Hebrews 4:13). That aborted fetus flushed into oblivion, thatsex act in a parked car or motel room, that crooked deal for illegalgain—everything is indelibly inscribed in the journal of the Almightybookkeeper. One cannot hide from God, whoever He may be! Furthermore, nomistakes will be made, for the dead will be judged out of those things whichwere written in the books, according to their works. We also see that everyunbeliever will be present, for the bodies come forth from land and sea andthe souls come from Hades (or hell). Then, body, soul, and spirit arereunited to stand before God.

Many have never realized that there is a time when the wicked are releasedfrom hell. This is not a new doctrine or man-made theory. (Order myfull-length audio cassette, "Hell Without Hell," for a thorough study ofthis subject.) However, for the moment, let’s examine a few facts regardingthis teaching.

The New Testament contains two Greek words—Hades and Gehenna—both of whichare translated hell in our English Bible. [A free complete study is onlineon our website called Hell ] The LordJesus Christ used both words repeatedly. Why two words? Are there twoplaces? Yes! A simple illustration will help us understand.

Everyone knows the difference between a local jail and a penitentiary. Whenan individual is arrested for a crime, he is not placed in the penitentiaryuntil he has had a trial. Instead, he is locked up in the local jail (cityor county), where he awaits his trail. Then, upon being found guilty, he istransferred to the penitentiary, where he serves his sentence. The nextstatement is of extreme importance. Get it! When Jesus used the word Hades,He referred to the local jail—the place where the sinner is bound until thejudgment morning. Then, on Judgment Day, the sinner comes out of the localjail (Hades), stands before the Judge (the Lord Jesus himself), is foundguilty, and is subsequently transferred to the final penitentiary of souls(Gehenna). The lake of fire is usually synonymous with Gehenna.

The eleven instances where Christ mentioned Hades are as follows: Matthew11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:22,23; Acts 2:27; 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55;Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13; and Revelation 20:14.

Gehenna is mentioned twelve times by the Savior: Matthew 5:22; 5:29; 5:30;10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43; 9:45; 9:47; Luke 12:5; and James 3:6.

After studying the twenty-three texts, one ob-serves that verses 13 and 14of our present study now make perfect sense: Death [the grave] and hell[Hades] delivered up the dead which were in them. The plural pronoun "them"indicates two places: the grave and Hades—one for the body and the other forthe soul. Next they were judged every man according to his works (that’s thetrial). Then death and [Hades—Greek] were cast into the lake of fire[Gehenna—the final penitentiary].

Why are they transferred? Gehenna differs from Hades in that Gehenna is aplace where there are degrees of suffering. After one has been examined andjudged as to how much light he had (how often he heard the message ofsalvation and rejected it), he is assigned to this place called Gehenna,where there are degrees of suffering according to one’s light and works.Thus, the final hell will differ for all, depending on one’s evil deeds andthe number of times he rejected Christ’s offer of love.

Now we understand Romans 2:5 a little better: But after thy hardness andimpenitent heart treasurest up [storest up, savest up] unto thyself wrathagainst the day of wrath. This is why it shall be more tolerable [morebearable, more endurable] for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, thanfor [Capernaum] (Matthew 11:24). What was Capernaum’s sin? Capernaum hadgreater light since Christ visited the city and preached to her citizens.This is also why the Pharisees receive the greater ****ation (Matthew23:14).

Clearly, sinners are raised from death and Hades, judged by Christ at theGreat White Throne, and then transferred to Gehenna. The "good news,"how-ever, is that none of this happens to those who are trusting in themerits of the shed blood of Jesus. When one trusts Christ, his name iswritten in the book of life. The judgment just discussed is only for thosewhose names are not found inscribed in the book (see verse 15). If one issaved, he need never be concerned about hell as his eternal destiny, for hethat believeth on [Christ] is not condemned (John 3:18). He is also passedfrom death unto life (John 5:24). Thus, there is therefore now nocondemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Amen.

The great judgment is only for those who participate in the finalresurrection which occurs after the 1,000-year or millennial reign of Christupon earth. Those who were raised prior to the Millennium are eternallysecure, for blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:on such the second death hath no power (verse 6).

[Venom]

And now if a beleiver dies, they will be in heaven with the Lord in a snap, because of the blood of Christ!:

2 Corinthians 5:1-11
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

[bigpoppadiesel]

so then before jesus came around does that mean that everyone went to hades, regaurdless of wether or not they lived good lives just because christianity hadnt been invented yet?

[alanlws16]

As long as this thread is bumped I had a question. Where was Enoch?? It says he walked with God, but it doesn't mention where he went. I would think he went to heaven?? So couldn't there have been people like Enoch that were in heaven during this time??

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
so then before jesus came around does that mean that everyone went to hades, regaurdless of wether or not they lived good lives just because christianity hadnt been invented yet?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Christianity has always been around, its an extension from Judaism.
2. Yes everyone went to Hades, but not because of your reason. But rather because they could not go to heaven until Jesus died, and took away their sins.
3. People like Abraham were on the comfort side in Hades, which Jesus referred to as, "Paradise" and sinners were in the torment side, of which, you can see some detail in, with the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
As long as this thread is bumped I had a question. Where was Enoch?? It says he walked with God, but it doesn't mention where he went. I would think he went to heaven?? So couldn't there have been people like Enoch that were in heaven during this time??

[/ QUOTE ]


Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

God took him up to heaven with him, so he was exempted from this, similar to Elijah, and the rapture to come.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Some believe he is one of the two people described here in the Revelation:

Revelation 11:3-13
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

And in Zechariah:

Zechariah 4:1-14
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, 2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof...11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

[Adam Knowlden]

The bible says the blood of Jesus allows us to sit in the heavenly realms with God. Only kings sit in the presence of a king.

Here we see before Christ died, Isaiah, the great prophet overriden with guilt from the mere presence of God, let alone living with God and sitting with Him. His sin and the sin of Israel made him ashamed to even be in the presence of a Holy God.

We see the alter of Jesus pruging His sin, so he can take God's Holy Presence:

<font color="red"> 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.


</font>

[alanlws16]

[ QUOTE ]


Some believe he is one of the two people described here in the Revelation:

Revelation 11:3-13
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.



[/ QUOTE ]

So the prophets that are going to come after the rapture could possibly be Enoch and Elijah?? Or would this be before the rapture?? Ive read revalations like 4 or 5 times and have trouble understanding...

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]

So the prophets that are going to come after the rapture could possibly be Enoch and Elijah?? <font color="red"> Yes, many believe that. </font> Or would this be before the rapture?? <font color="red"> It's well after the rapture. </font> Ive read revalations like 4 or 5 times and have trouble understanding... <font color="red"> It is a very complex book. But read our bible studies. O.S made several ones on revelation. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Great thread guys! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Old School and Venom put on a seminar. Outstanding!

[Adam Knowlden]

Good questions alaws. Defenietly read the prophecy series in the bible study links.

I also wanted to add more about why we could not enter heaven before Christ died.

Christ left to prepare a place for us.

<font color="red"> 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.</font>

What place is he preparing?

We get more details of this place from the book of the Revelation of Jesus.

<font color="blue"> 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

</font>

Why had Jesus not prepared this place before His sacrifical death?

<font color="blue"> 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


</font>

We have a more prefect sacrifice:

<font color="green"> 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

</font>

Because of this we will not have to be ashamed when we see God.

<font color="brown"> 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

</font>

We can come boldly because the holiness and righteousness of Chirst is imputed on us through the gift of salvation.

God's mercy has extended from the Garden of Eden to the present, this is proved by the cross, Noah's Flood, Sodom, Egypt, and many other great trials God lead the children of Israel through.

Here God is fortelling the coming of The Lord immediately after Adam and Eve had sinned, and brought the curse of sin and death on humainity:

<font color="red"> 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

</font>

The heel of Jesus was bruised on the cross but because of the cross Satan is under the feet of Christ and all Believers, crushing his head.

During the times before Jesus died, the people could not come to God, they had to have a high priest intercede for the them. But God's grace still was as strong as it always was, the Lord does not change.

<font color="blue">1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
</font>

But with the death of Christ, we have a new High Priest who interceds and prays for us. And can reconcile our sins before God.

Because of this he is given authority to destroy sin and death.

<font color="brown">26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
</font>

<font color="brown"> 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
</font>

And he will do so, as Adam brought death into the world, Jesus will destory death.

<font color="purple"> 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

</font>

<font color="#666666"> 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


</font>

Here at the Great White Throne Judgement death, the last enemy, is finally destroyed.

<font color="blue"> 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

</font>

[Venom]

That was awesome O.S /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[alanlws16]

Thanks Oldschool and Venom. Ill probably have more questions to come so be ready LOL!!

[William Ustav]

Incredible answers, guys! I just read them - top-notch stuff! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

One question to bite on - Everyone that believes in Jesus goes to heaven. But, doesn't God judge these people as well more thoroughly? Let's give a hyptothetical example.

One man believes in Jesus, but sins. He repents and asks for forgiveness. He repeats it again. He sins even more, etc, etc. But still gets forgiveness. I get that. But doesn't all of these sins count in at all?

Or is that were "Humans are all sinners" come in? It's cool to think about it, knowing that you have an Almighty Father who always forgives you, no matter what.

People at school, when I get into these debates, always ask me how God can be so cruel to the non-believers. This is in my opinion the EASIEST question, bar-none. God gives everyone a chance, but when he rejects God and turns his back on Him, he has already made a choice. Eternal life with God or Hell on earth AND in Hell /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif It's simple. They've made their choices.

People of today are very selfish, and I can understand why they have such a hard time trying to avoid sin - they are just too comfortable. They only care about themselves, and say "I belive in God. But I don't believe in the Bible."

Sick /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
He sins even more, etc, etc. But still gets forgiveness. I get that. But doesn't all of these sins count in at all?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you have seen our posts concerning willfully sinning, and know God is not mocked. Also, Old school covers this on his article called, "authentic faith." So first clarify to your friends what true faith is.

However, I believe you are asking, are there degrees of punishment in hell, and are there rewards in heaven right? Most certainly there are!

Now if you are a true believer, your sins will be separated from you, as far as the east is from the west, period. But, if you are not living up to our full potential, you will be greatly hindering your walk with Christ on earth, and some will be saved as by fire, without any rewards in heaven.

Read this thread for salvation, and rewards, here. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=601139&amp; Forum=bodybuilder&amp;Words=rewards%20in%20heaven&amp;Matc h=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=6month s&amp;Main=601110&amp;Search=true#Post601139)

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]



However, I believe you are asking, are there degrees of punishment in hell, and are there rewards in heaven right? Most certainly there are!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... isn't that very close to what Mormons believe?

[ QUOTE ]

But, if you are not living up to our full potential, you will be greatly hindering your walk with Christ on earth, and some will be saved as by fire, without any rewards in heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

But everyone sins - swearing, saying something bad about someone, etc ? /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Read this thread for salvation, and rewards, here. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=601139&amp; Forum=bodybuilder&amp;Words=rewards%20in%20heaven&amp;Matc h=Entire%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=6month s&amp;Main=601110&amp;Search=true#Post601139)


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that must be a new study! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I haven't seen it before!

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... isn't that very close to what Mormons believe?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter what anyone says. What does God say? That's all the counts. Read the link I gave.

[ QUOTE ]
But everyone sins - swearing, saying something bad about someone, etc ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, I am not sure what the question is though?

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... isn't that very close to what Mormons believe?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter what anyone says. What does God say? That's all the counts. Read the link I gave. <font color="red"> You bet I will, friend! Thanks! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font>

[ QUOTE ]
But everyone sins - swearing, saying something bad about someone, etc ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, I am not sure what the question is though? <font color="red"> What I'm aiming at is - does every sin count the same? Wouldn't ALL christians go to the same place in that case in heaven? </font>


[/ QUOTE ]

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm aiming at is - does every sin count the same? Wouldn't ALL christians go to the same place in that case in heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I think that link will help clarrify on what I mean by rewards. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[William Ustav]

Thanks, bro'! I'll print it out from school tomorrow!

[Adam Knowlden]

Defenietly re-read the quote Venom gave from Dr. Van Impe. He clears up degrees of hell well.

The unsaved will be judged according to their works--which we know is futile, but will determine degrees of punishment.

The Christian will be judged and rewarded with how well he/she fulfilled their purpose in life.

[Son of Shem]

[ QUOTE ]

1. Christianity has always been around, its an extension from Judaism.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just a question of technicality.. How could you say that Christianity has always been around? Even though it IS an extension of Judaism, Judaism has not always been around.

[alanlws16]

[ QUOTE ]
Defenietly re-read the quote Venom gave from Dr. Van Impe. He clears up degrees of hell well.

The unsaved will be judged according to their works--which we know is futile, but will determine degrees of punishment.

The Christian will be judged and rewarded with how well he/she fulfilled their purpose in life.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean degree of punishment? Aren't all believers thrown in the lake of fire?

How does a Cristian know his porpose in life?

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean degree of punishment? Aren't all believers thrown in the lake of fire?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, believers are not thrown into the lake of fire. Unbelievers are.

Read the exert Venom gave in his initial post by Dr. Van Impe. It explains it all.

The degrees will be judged by the unbelievers works, and how often they rejected God's call in their life.

[ QUOTE ]
How does a Cristian know his porpose in life?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my study guides in the purpose of life thread in my bible study link.

I'm putting up the next part in December after the mag is out.

as far as Christianity, read our bible study, "How to use the Word of God part One". You will see that monotheism is the most ancient form of worship, and that before the dispersion from the plains of Shinar the world worshipped the One True God. After the dispersion, man invented other Gods. That is why God raised up Abraham and the nation of Israel to be His light to the world. WHere as today, Christians are to be the light of the world and the bearers of the message of salvation.

[alanlws16]

[ QUOTE ]

No, believers are not thrown into the lake of fire. Unbelievers are.



[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry typo. Thanks man.