baptism

[mama2Six]

I was raised Catholic, baptised as an infant, confirmed when I was 12. I have almost always believed (brief anger stint where I was an agnostic) in God, but until this past year I never persued a personal relationship with him. I tried to follow the "rules" but it was out of fear, not a WANT. I am wondering if I should get baptised again? My Pastor says yes since it wasn't my decision but I think since I was confirmed and it was my decision - it makes up for the infant baptism thing. Pastor says it really wasn't my decision since that was what ALL of us did in my class that year. I guess he has a point, but I did believe in God at that time. My understanding was that once you were Baptised a Christian, even if you changed "religions" you were not to be baptised again. Just curious what you guys think.
Amy

[Patyal68]

Being Catholic, that will bring up a lot of controversy. I have experience on that. I was raised Catholic and never had a relationship with the Lord. Attended Church just to please my family, but never enjoyed going to the services.

Last year was very bad for me. Lots of depression, anger, frustration and many other crappy stuff. Today I see all that was used by the Lord to pursue me to come back to Him. I did so and started attending services in March of this year in a Christian Church. I just can tell, I loved it since the first day I joined. For the first time I was able to feel what it means to accept Jesus Christ in your heart and felt the need to declare that in public.

So, I was baptised again on May of this year. Why? Because when I was originally baptised I never did a concious decision of it, nor understood the meaning and importance of living on Christ. Because of that, I screwed up big time and went on my own. Being Baptized again meant to be concious of this important step, accept and declare in public my decision and most important be saved by Christ.

We can't be saved until we accept to live in Christ. If you were baptised before but were not living in Christ, then your first baptism means nothing to the Lord's eyes. Just my personal experience /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[mama2Six]

Paty,
I too have left the catholic church much to my Mothers heartache :-( There is a passage somewhere in the Bible that talks about fighting with family over God and man was it true in my life. She slapped me across the face, called me a heathen, cried and didn't speak to me for MONTHS when I left. Now she accepts it.
Your experience sounds JUST like mine. It is a hard thing for me to UNLEARN what I spent so many years learning.
Amy

[Patyal68]

Well, the decision was hard for me too. My Mom was all crying on the phone, telling me God was going to punish her and asking me what she had done wrong with me, etc.

However, keep in mind that we must live on God's word, not on men's law. So, what your family and friends might not be able to accept or understand, does not mean is wrong. Keep the Lord FIRST in all you do and He's so magnificent he will make your wrongs right and will bring peace to your relatives. You just keep strong in your faith and it will come. I can tell /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Wildcat]

The real answer is how you feel in your heart. I personally believe that baptized once is baptized forever. You don't *need* to be baptized again, but you *may* be baptized again if you feel it's necessary to make that testimony to yourself, God, and/or your congregation, and renew your commitment to God in that way.

I had a rebirth of faith similar to yours. Even though I was baptized as an infant and confirmed at 13, both long before my significant falling out of faith in high school and college, I still claim that original baptism and confirmation. I may have fallen away from God, but God did not fall away from me. I believe I do not need to be re-baptized. I suppose it helpt that the churches I've joined after I left the Catholic Church did not make any big deal of it; they've accepted my Catholic baptism without question.

I really do think it's a matter of your conscience before God, not any particular church or denomination rules.

[Patyal68]

Just for the record, my Church didn't question my previous baptism. It was a voluntary action. I felt the need of it and for me that was what the Lord was "inviting" me to do. I think it depends on everyone's circumstances more than the Church acceptance to our previous baptism. I agree with you "the answer is how you feel in your heart", This is an act of Faith, and faith can only come from our own heart.

As I said before, being baptised, for me, meant to live in Christ. I was not, so took the decision to start-over and not go back to sin again.

[Tuf]

Amy, I think you can find the answers you are seeking if you look to the Word.

Christian baptism by immersion in water is a public identification with Jesus Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. It is not a requirement for salvation, but it is commanded of all believers and is for believers only. Here are some verses:
<font color="red">Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.</font>
<font color="blue">Acts 2
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.</font>
<font color="green">Acts 2
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.</font>

Scripture demonstrates that a person was baptized after receiving forgiveness of sin by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Baptism is a symbol of our death, burial, and resurrection to new life that we are given when we become a new creation in Christ.
<font color="orange">Colossians 2
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.</font>
<font color="purple">2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.</font>
<font color="brown">Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.</font>

[schless]

[ QUOTE ]
Baptism is a symbol of our death, burial, and resurrection to new life that we are given when we become a new creation in Christ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, as a Lutheran, I believe that it is IN/DURING baptism that we become a new creation in Christ. Rather, this new creation, this death to sin and birth into Jesus' forgiveness, occurs as a gift from God, during baptism, when water and Word are applied. I don't have to "do anything" to receive it, and it is more than just a symbol but rather an actual gift from God. Which is why infant baptims "counts," if you will, and does not need to be redone later. Just as a doctor gives an infant an immunization w/o the agreement/cooperation of the infant, the immunization is no less effective, and does not have to be regiven later, when the infant becomes an adult who can decide for him/herself. So it is with Baptism. It is a gift from God, given freely, so that we may be one with Him.

Jesus died on the cross for all my sins - past, present, future. If it were up to me to "do something" in order to receive salvation, then I would have no need for Jesus Christ. But since I can not do it of my own accord, my Savior, out of his great love for me, does it on my behalf. He forgives me on the cross, he cleanses me in Baptism, he fortifies me with his Holy Supper. It's all him, all the time. Pure gift, pure grace, while I am yet a sinner.

Thanks be to God!

P.S. I was raised Catholic as well. Became Lutheran 7 yrs ago.

[Tuf]

Hi Schless. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am not very familiar with the Lutheran church. Are you saying that you do not believe that the Bible teaches that regeneration is an instantaneous change from spiritual death to spiritual life?

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that you do not believe that the Bible teaches that regeneration is an instantaneous change from spiritual death to spiritual life?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you referring to being a born-again christian, tuf?

I do not follow any "laws" of catholic or lutheran churches. It is enough to love God, and repent your sins. I was baptized when I was little, but I didn't really start being with God until these later times. And God loves me, and likes what I do. I see no reason to go and be baptized right now, since I already am. If that made any sense, lol. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[schless]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Schless. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am not very familiar with the Lutheran church. Are you saying that you do not believe that the Bible teaches that regeneration is an instantaneous change from spiritual death to spiritual life?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey girl! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Actually, I'm saying that I DO believe that we go instantly from death to life at the moment of baptism. Going back and rereading your post, I think I may have misunderstood it the first time. I read it to mean that we had to first receive forgiveness and accept Christ, becoming a new creation through those means, and then we could get baptized. I believe that all those things occur simultaneously at the moment of baptism. We die, Christ forgives, and we are born again in Him through baptism.

Does that clarify it a bit?

[Patyal68]

Hey Schless, so in your opinion, and according you your beliefs, if a person "receive forgiveness and accept Christ, becoming a new creation through those means", shall he declare this by being baptized again?

Just to clarify I'm talking about the person who was baptised when being a child, but lived in sin until certain point. Then humbled to the Lord, confessed his/her sins and has the opportunity to be baptised again. Does that change your thinking?

[schless]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Schless, so in your opinion, and according you your beliefs, if a person "receive forgiveness and accept Christ, becoming a new creation through those means", shall he declare this by being baptized again?

Just to clarify I'm talking about the person who was baptised when being a child, but lived in sin until certain point. Then humbled to the Lord, confessed his/her sins and has the opportunity to be baptised again. Does that change your thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Patyal. I don't think I'm articulating very well. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Always harder to do in the written word than just chatting! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif According to my beliefs, baptism alone is the means by which we become a new creation. And being a new creation is all-encompassing. We are forgiven and become one with Christ simply by the act of baptism itself. Water and Word placed upon us during baptism achieves that for us. The Holy Spirit enters in, we are forgiven, and are one with Christ. There is nothing I have to do but show up and be baptized. As such, it is not necessary to do it again. Christ did it right the first time! It took!

Now, I am baptized, and am a forgiven sinner. But it does not mean I sin no more. So, though baptized, I still live in sin, but live also in grace. I sin, repent, and am forgiven, but I sin nonetheless. So I am both saint and sinner at once. Saint in the fact that I am cleansed and made new by Christ in the waters of my baptism, and sinner in the fact that I am a human being who's very nature it is to sin.

So there's no need for me to keep getting baptized. The Lord accomplished his task the first time around. The gift was given to me as an infant and is with me still today.

[10forty2]

I feel that Jesus should be the example for everything in our lives, baptism included. Follow with me....

Jesus is the Christ from which we derive the Christian faith. Jesus suffered and died for us to be able to claim the promise of eternal life with Him and God.

In order to be saved one must confess and believe in Jesus as the one and only Savior, the one and only Son of God born of immaculate conception who died on a cross and was resurrected on the third day. As the Bible says "We are saved by grace through faith and not by works, lest any man should boast."

Jesus' example of baptism was that a person be baptised as a public profession of the faith that has already been established and a symbol of his/her dying an old life, and resurrecting a new life. When you arise from the waters you are symbolically clean from your former life of sin. Your sins have been washed away as promised.

As a lifelong Southern Baptist I have been taught and have believed in the importance of baptism by immersion as in the example of John the Baptist in the bible; however, I do not believe that baptism does anything to make you a Christian. It is a symbol only...

With that said, I do not believe that being sprinkled as a baby does anything for the baby, rather it is a symbol of the parents' choice to raise the child in a Christian manner. If it did, then there would be no need to voluntarily accept Christ later.

Sorry Schless ( and I truly mean no harm towards you here), but I do not agree with your analogy of the innoculations. That's two entirely different things. Being a Christian is a TOTALLY voluntary thing that MUST be done of one's own free will. A baby has no choice in the matter of being sprinkled. A teenager or adult has enough cognizance to realize the choice he/she has made. That's what Christ wants. That's what God wants....They want us to choose them of our own free will. That's why they gave us that choice and that's why our choice to follow Them will be so richly rewarded.

Hope I didn't offend anyone, but that's what I believe.

[Patyal68]

[ QUOTE ]
... Now, I am baptized, and am a forgiven sinner. But it does not mean I sin no more. So, though baptised, I still live in sin, but live also in grace. I sin, repent, and am forgiven, but I sin nonetheless. So I am both saint and sinner at once. Saint in the fact that I am cleansed and made new by Christ in the waters of my baptism, and sinner in the fact that I am a human being who's very nature it is to sin.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree in a sense. See... I'll point out my specific case here. I was baptised being a child, however due to several disfunctionality at home at got mad with the Lord. I did refuse to follow him, trust him and honor him. On the contrary, I was aware of my sins but didn't repent of them. I did all sort of bad stuff and started following Satan. Now, Satan put me down, exhausted me and made me see life as non-sense. It came a point in my life that nothing had a meaning and future was not appealing to me. In my opinion, that's how Satan enjoys trapping people. So anyway, it was when I went so down that I humbled to the Lord, confessed my sins and asked for forgiveness. The strength I got was so immense that for me was to be reborn and have a second chance.

Therefore, yes I was saved from original sin when I was first baptised. However, I enjoyed living in sin till the point things went out of control and recognized I was powerless, but I needed Him. That's when I was saved again, that's why I decided to get baptised again.

[ QUOTE ]
So there's no need for me to keep getting baptized. The Lord accomplished his task the first time around. The gift was given to me as an infant and is with me still today.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also agree here. Baptism is not a game. I don't pretend to be re-baptised again and again. But I got the commitment to live in Christ until I got baptised this year. So, yeah, sin is something I struggle every day with. As I see it, being baptised again involves awarenes and not procure sin on purpose.

Don't know... still think the Lord invites everyone and we will respond according to our heart and particular situation.

[schless]

Hey 10forty2! Absolutely no offense taken. We all have our beliefs and they are as varied as we are as individuals. I think it's great that we can speak them here, agree to disagree, and do so with respect and courtesy toward one another. I don't agree with you either, but that's OK, right? In the big scheme of things, and on the last day, you and I, as believing, faith-filled Christians, will be together in heaven. And that's what it's all about anyway! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Venom]

Here is a good thread on baptism and being born again, here. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=532233&amp; Forum=bodybuilder&amp;Words=baptism&amp;Match=Entire%20Phr ase&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=6months&amp;Main=531855&amp; Search=true#Post532233)

[Adam Knowlden]

Awesome post Venom! Jack is the man! I especially liked this part:

[ QUOTE ]
This plain, simple, logical statement from God should "put to bed" once, for all, and forever the nonsense taught by reincarnationists. They believe that after death one is "reborn" as a human, cow, dog, or ant. (Don't step on an ant because it might be your Aunt!) Wow! If one wants to believe fairy tales, that's his business. But please do not use the Bible to propagate such heresy. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

And good for you Patty!

That is cool you want to recommit your life and show that by public baptism. It isn't required for salvation. Romans 10 is clear on salvation, but it is awesome to publically recognize your desire to follow Christ.

[Patyal68]

Ahem, OldSchool. I think you got the wrong name. I have already been baptised, It's Amy the one who is considering this big decision. And yes, its awesome!!

[Adam Knowlden]

er..oops! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Well we're all brothers and sisters right! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Nuke!]

[ QUOTE ]
er..oops! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Well we're all brothers and sisters right! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, that cracked me up!!!!

this is a great thread BTW, my btothers and sisters

[Venom]

Jack is definitely the man. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
That is cool you want to recommit your life and show that by public baptism. It isn't required for salvation. Romans 10 is clear on salvation, but it is awesome to publically recognize your desire to follow Christ.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed; I say go for it Amy. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And great verses by Tuf to. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[mama2Six]

WOW - so many different opinions, yet nobody is offended. I LOVE ABC!! Where else can you discuss things like this in an OPEN way?

I read Tuff's verses and it says nothing about my situation. If I were never baptised and confirmed I wouldn't have any "issues". To be honest, I think when I think about it, I *NEED* to be baptised. Maybe my "loyality" to my upbringing is what is holding me back. In my mind I wasn't a Chiristian until this year, I was a Catholic. Following Catholic rules, not God's. I had never even really read any of the bible until this year. I didn't know much about God but knew the laws well. I just answered my question didn't I?
Amy

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]

I read Tuff's verses and it says nothing about my situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tuf summed it up well here:

[ QUOTE ]
Scripture demonstrates that a person was baptized after receiving forgiveness of sin by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Baptism is a symbol of our death, burial, and resurrection to new life that we are given when we become a new creation in Christ.


[/ QUOTE ]

The scriptures she showed demonstrated this.

This is a great verse to add to Tuf's list:

Acts 8:26-40
26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Check out Phillips response:

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Like Tuf said, "Scripture demonstrates that a person was baptized after receiving forgiveness of sin by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" Phillips said that before being baptized, he needed to accept Christ.

And after his confession, Phillip baptized him:

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

[mama2Six]

Venom,
I get what you guys are saying and maybe it's my Catholic upbringing that has me not seeing what you are in those verses. I was baptised as an infant and then confirmed my baptism as a young teenager. In the Catholic church this is like the 2nd step to baptism. The baptism was my parents decision, the confirmation was mine. This is where I get confused. I didn't decide it as an infant but did as a young teenager. Although what I was agreeing to was different (by what I was taught) than what is in the bible. In my misguided mind, I was agreeing to the fact that God did exist, Jesus was his son and died for us and I had to good or he would send me to hell. You have NO idea how far off almost EVERYTHING I learned about God was :-( I sometimes wish I had never been raised Catholic, this wouldn't be so confusing to me. I didn't even know how to pray (without a pre-made prayer) or what saved even meant. I always envied my Mother's "faith" but now I feel sorry for her, she is missing SO much of what God has for her!
Amy

[mama2Six]

I should proablly apologize to any Catholics reading this. Maybe my parish was just strange but what I experienced is just that. So, I hope I did not offend anyone! I was lead wrong and I must admit I have some bad feelings.
Amy

[Adam Knowlden]

It sounds to me that you are asking for baptism in the spirit. Something I feel is a seperate act than being saved.

<font color="red"> 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
</font>

<font color="blue">16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


</font>

Now I am going all non-denominational on you guys!LOL /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[William Ustav]

LOL, this has become a great thread with so many different opinions. But to me it seems as if all these opinions can be backed by scripture - so which one is "correct"?

Or let's put it this way - does it really matter? Jesus makes it very clear that it is our hearts that have the most value. Sure being baptised is good, but maybe it's not that vital, especially not if you were already baptized as an infant.

Any thoughts? /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[10forty2]

[ QUOTE ]
Or let's put it this way - does it really matter? Jesus makes it very clear that it is our hearts that have the most value. Sure being baptised is good, but maybe it's not that vital, especially not if you were already baptized as an infant.

Any thoughts? /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was trying to say in a long, drawn-out explanation. It's what's in your heart that matters and Jesus knows what's there even better than we do!

And Schless...thanks for not taking offense to my comments. I definitely look forward to one day meeting you and all the other wonderful believers of ABC on those golden streets and heading to the Lord's Gym for a Heavenly workout consisting of praise and worship to our Father!"

[William Ustav]

Definitely, tenforty!!! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[schless]

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely look forward to one day meeting you and all the other wonderful believers of ABC on those golden streets and heading to the Lord's Gym for a Heavenly workout consisting of praise and worship to our Father!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for this! Just gave me a glorious picture to carry with me in my mind and heart today! Awesome!

[RichW]

This is a great thread!
I believe that baptisim is an outward sign of a decsision made to follow Christ! The actual baptism is a symbol. Is it the water that cleanses us? No! It is the blood of the Lamb that was shed for us that makes us clean!
I think baptism is an important sign to the rest of the world that we are confessing our belief in Christ to others.
However, I don't think that people should get hung up in sacrements like baptisim. Our salvation is not dependant on sacrement but in faith and trust in Christ.
I am certainly not saying we shouldn't get baptised! I think we should. But wether we do or not is not as important as the relationship we have with Christ.
I hope I said that right! Like Schless said, it's easier to chat than to write sometimes!:D

[Patyal68]

Hey Amy,
All you said about how you feel and how you are struggling reminds me of myself when I decided to go for it. I trust Catholics in this site don't feel offended, because what you said is exactly what happens being Catholic. I didn't know how to pray either. For me, God was someone you couldn't address directly but actually had to either confess and talk to the Priest, or choose one of the many Saints and Virgins, who would act on our behalf to the Lord. The main difference for me has been to be able to talk to Christ directly. No need of Saints to get my prayers to the Lord.

So, all said here has been very respectful to everyone's beliefs. I personally liked the way 10forty2 and Tuff described the meaning of Baptism. I'm not very knowledgeable on the Bible verses, but I'm learning. So all I can add here is get quiet time with the Lord, pray and listen to your heart. That's where you'll get the answer /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Tuf]

[ QUOTE ]
I get what you guys are saying and maybe it's my Catholic upbringing that has me not seeing what you are in those verses. I was baptised as an infant and then confirmed my baptism as a young teenager. In the Catholic church this is like the 2nd step to baptism. The baptism was my parents decision, the confirmation was mine. This is where I get confused. I didn't decide it as an infant but did as a young teenager. Although what I was agreeing to was different (by what I was taught) than what is in the bible. In my misguided mind, I was agreeing to the fact that God did exist, Jesus was his son and died for us and I had to good or he would send me to hell. You have NO idea how far off almost EVERYTHING I learned about God was :-( I sometimes wish I had never been raised Catholic, this wouldn't be so confusing to me. I didn't even know how to pray (without a pre-made prayer) or what saved even meant. I always envied my Mother's "faith" but now I feel sorry for her, she is missing SO much of what God has for her!

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, I don't know how to make this any clearer than Venom and OldSchool did in their posts and the link Venom provided, but I will try to offer some more examples.

It is vital to determine truth by what the Bible teaches us rather than man or even church traditions. Let's first look again at a summary of baptism in the New Testament:

<font color="green">1. Examples are given throughout the New Testament of the apostles baptizing people upon their confession of faith in the Lord Jesus.

2. The book of Acts gives us many descriptions of instances when believers were baptized, beginning in Acts 2.</font>

However, there are no explicit biblical instances of infants being baptized in the New Testament. Let's take a look...

In Acts 10 we see the first recorded instance of a household being baptized. Cornelius and the Centurion summon Peter and he returns to them, preaches the good news, the Holy Spirit comes upon them, and then they are baptized. Some contend that there was a strong possibility that this “household” must have included children and possibly even infants; however, with a proper examination of the text, we can see that Cornelius’ house was filled with people, possibly friends and relatives that had come to hear Peter speak (Acts 10:27). Now, verse 44 states, <font color="red">“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.”</font> The Gentiles heard them speaking in tongues and praising the Lord. Then Peter said, <font color="red">“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have,”</font> and he ordered that they be baptized. Here the text seems to indicate that only those who heard the message and received the Spirit were baptized; not every member of Cornelius’ household. This would not likely include the baptism of infants if they were present.

Okay, one more: Acts 16:30-34 says, <font color="red">“and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.”</font>
It is possible that there were infants in the Philippian jailor's household; there is no explicit support in the text for or against their presence. Take note though of the fact that Paul and Silas spoke the word to all who were in the house. All were then baptized, and then he and all his household rejoiced in the in the Lord. So, is likely that the Word was preached to infants in the arms of their parents and that, as a result, those infants rejoiced in the Lord? This doesn't seem to be the most plausible explanation.

There are others, but I just wanted to show you a couple of instances to reinforce that <font color="purple">it is unlikely that infant baptism was a practice in the New Testament church</font>, even with the baptisms of households. The earliest documents from the church fathers also appear to indicate that baptism was only for believing adults. It wasn't until the early 3rd century that conrete evidence of infant baptism even existed. So, it is likely that the baptism of infants began to be practiced in the late second century and wasn’t completely accepted as the church norm until some time significantly later.

I think one of the key points that we are trying to communicate is this:

<font color="blue">The Bible shows that a person was baptized after receiving forgiveness of sin by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.</font>

Now, is it likely that an infant has the ability to recognize their depravity and to understand the death of Jesus Christ on the cross for their sins? Is it likely that they would then be able to accept him as their personal Lord and Savior? There is no doubt in my mind that this cannot be the case. As we have emphasized, baptism is for those who have accepted Christ.

I also think it would be amiss to not emphasize again the means of salvation:

<font color="orange">Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.</font>

<font color="blue">Acts 16
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.</font>
The Bible does not indicate that baptism is a requirement for slavation.

What was Paul sent to do?
<font color="green">1 Corinthians 1
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.</font>
If water baptism was a requirement for salvation, Christ would have sent Paul to baptize.

Amy, I think it would be great if you chose to make a public confession of your faith and commitment to follow Jesus by being baptised again. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I hope the things we have all discussed have helped you to better understand it's purpose and significance.

[junfan68]

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds to me that you are asking for baptism in the spirit. Something I feel is a seperate act than being saved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not agree with this.

I believe once we are saved, the Spirit is with us.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message
of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also
believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy
Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of
our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of
God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one
body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or
free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

2 Peter 1:3
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us
everything pertaining to life and godliness,
through the true knowledge of Him who called us
by His own glory and excellence.

And probably the most clear is:

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also
you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one
Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father
of all who is over all and through all and in all.


PS~ Not trying to start an arguement here, but just wanted to state my opinion and why I believe it.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not agree with this.

I believe once we are saved, the Spirit is with us.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The Spirit convicts them of sin, convinces them of righteousness, and dwells within them (John 6:44; 14:17; Roman 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13). No one becomes a Christian without this gracious work of the Holy Spirit.

However, there is an additional and distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit called the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Baptism is an empowering gift from God the Father that is promised to every believer (Matthew 3:11; Luke 11:13; 24:49; Acts 2:33, 38). It helps the Christian to live a holy life and also brings a new devotional attachment to Jesus Christ, making Him very real and precious. The primary purpose of the Baptism is to give greater power for witnessing (Acts 1:8). Other benefits include a greater joy in spiritual service, and a heightened sense of one's mission to the world.

Receiving eternal life does not depend on being baptized in the Holy Spirit; for salvation is by grace through faith alone (Habakkuk 2:4; John 6:28, 29; Galatians 3:6; 5:6; Ephesians 2:8). It is a gift purchased for us by Christ when He was crucified. All we have to do is accept the gift. Just as the repentant thief on the cross next to Jesus was assured of entering paradise that very day we too are assured a place in heaven with the Father if we believe in Jesus Christ. It is most unfortunate that some have said, "Unless you have spoken in tongues you will not go to heaven." This is not true. It is contrary to the Scriptures.

At the same time, although the Bible does not say the baptism in the Spirit is required for salvation, it does tell us that Christ commanded His first followers to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8). The Bible commands us to "be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18). This personal encounter with the Holy Spirit should be sought and cherished by every believer. With it comes a new and fuller dimension of spiritual understanding and a flow of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:9-13).

As with the reservoir, this power-generating experience is not intended to be a one-time occurrence. It is to be an ongoing process. When our spiritual power runs low, we need to return to the Source and let the blessed Holy Spirit pour into us again, bringing fresh power. This happened to the early followers of Jesus. They had already been baptized in the Spirit; but later on, when persecution arose, they needed a new surge of spiritual power; so they prayed to the Lord once again and "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 4:31).

As the Spirit-filled believer serves the Lord, there is an expenditure of spiritual power. It becomes necessary for him to open himself afresh to the Holy Spirit in order that his power may be replenished. The command in Ephesians 5:18 is literally, "Keep on being filled with the Spirit." Here lies the secret of Spirit-filled living. The Spirit-filled life is a continuous process of receiving and giving, of being filled and sharing with others, of recieving power from God and spending it in gospel service.

Exerts from http://www.ag.org/top/beliefs/baptism_hs/baptmhs_00_questions.cfm

[junfan68]

[ QUOTE ]
So do I. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, no question we have much more in common than we do differences.

[ QUOTE ]
commanded His first followers to wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon them (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8). The Bible commands us to "be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's important to remember the context in which this was said. Remember, this (Pentecost) was the first time the Spirit "arrived on the scene". Of course he said wait, because the Spirit had not come when he said that.

Here is where I'm not sure what you mean exactly: I believe that from the moment we accept Christ, we have all of the Holy Spirit. The only thing that keeps us from realizing the power of the Holy Spirit is our sinful selves. In other words, all of the Spirit is there within us, all of the time, but we supress it to various degrees at various times.

It seems you are saying that the Holy Spirit actually descends upon us multiple times as we ask for it by prayer, after we have expended our "power" during the course of ministry work, etc. Is that what you are saying?


Does my question make sense?

TIA,
******

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
This personal encounter with the Holy Spirit should be sought and cherished by every believer. With it comes a new and fuller dimension of spiritual understanding and a flow of spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:9-13).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I've experienced these past days!!! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey Juan fan!

We can see many instances where baptism of the Holy Spirit had occured after salvation. It is indeed necesarry for salvation that the Holy Spirit enter us, and this happens when we call upon the name of the Lord. Baptism in the Spirit is not required for salvation. It is simply a gift from God to any believer who asks! I'll explain more later, but study this passage for now:

<font color="green"> 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.


</font>

[Venom]

That was a great verse O.S!

[junfan68]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Juan fan!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's ******...but I guess you knew that. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


Well, you did not answer my question.

I'll re-phrase it in case it was not clear:

Do you believe that we receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord &amp; Savior, or do you believe they are separate events?

Or, I guess it could be asked this way:

Do you believe that you can be saved and not have the Holy Spirit in you?

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
It's ******...but I guess you knew that.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops. I was in a hurry. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you did not answer my question. Do you believe that we receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord &amp; Savior, or do you believe they are separate events?


[/ QUOTE ]

I must be missing something, I think I did answer both of those questions already.

[ QUOTE ]
It is indeed necesarry for salvation that the Holy Spirit enter us, and this happens when we call upon the name of the Lord. Baptism in the Spirit is not required for salvation. It is simply a gift from God to any believer who asks!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't believe in baptism of the spirit, that is fine with me! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The bible calls for unity in Christ, not uniformity!

Later!

[junfan68]

10-4, Old School.

Well, just so you know, the reason I asked those questions again (in a yes or no fashion), was because a friend &amp; I (he's a member of ABC too) had different interpretations of what you were saying....that's all.

[Nuke!]

Don't worry ******, lunch won't cost you that much, I'm not bulking /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yes the Holy Spirit enters you when you ask the Lord in your heart. They are 3 in one, so if you get one you get all three!

The key is understanding we are made of a body, soul, and spirit. Getting baptized in the Holy Ghost is giving the Lord complete control of your mind, will, and emotions--the soul.

[William Ustav]

[ QUOTE ]
They are 3 in one,

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif That's what I call a good deal /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif