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Venom
08-03-2003, 02:09 PM
For part 1-2 go here, How to use the Word of God Part 1- Accuracy of Scripture and Salvation (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=590954& Forum=bodybuilder&Words=How%20to%20use%20the%20Wor d%20of%20God%20Part%201&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Sear chpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1week&Main=590954&Search=tru e#Post590954), How to use the Word of God Part II- Biblical analysis (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=598551& Forum=bodybuilder&Words=How%20to%20use%20the%20Wor d%20of%20God%20Part&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpa ge=0&Limit=25&Old=1month&Main=598551&Search=true#P ost598551)

Enjoy!

God's Word stands on it's own.

[ QUOTE ]
We know from Moses that the world was not in existence before 6,000 years ago' He [Moses] calls 'a spade a spade,' i.e., he employs the terms 'day' and 'evening' without allegory, just as we customarily do' we assert that Moses spoke in the literal sense, not allegorically or figuratively, i.e., that the world, with all its creatures, was created within six days, as the words read. If we do not comprehend the reason for this, let us remain pupils and leave the job of teacher to the Holy Spirit.

-Martin Luther, Lectures on Genesis



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When Darwin introduced the theory of evolution over a hundred years ago, there were many attempts on the part of the church to "fit" the theory in the bible. Out of these attempts arose several different view points of the Genesis account of creation. These view points usually tried to incorporate evolution and long ages into the Biblical account.

The variations can be divided into 3 categories:

1. Theistic evolution

2. The Day-Age theory

3. The Gap theory.

Willson's Fifth Reader, written in 1861, gives us a glimpse of these explanations.

"It is believed by most geologists that the earth was at one time a molten mass, surrounded by an atmosphere filled with dense gases and vapors; and that, as the outer portions cooled, forming the rocks and the dry land, the vapors, condensing and falling in showers, formed springs, rivers and the waters of the oceans. This is the geological theory of the gradual calling of order out of chaos, after the great work of creation had been completed.

It is maintained that this view of the early condition of our globe, and of the successive changes that subsequently occurred in it during thousands and perhaps millions of years prior to the creation of man, does not at all conflict with the scriptural account of creation. The scriptural account, as paraphrased by a modern commentator, would read thus: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was desolate. Afterward, the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters;" thus allowing the possibility of even millions of years between the first act of creative power and the six days' work of arranging the universe.

Different opinions long prevailed among the learned with regard to the nature, the extent of time, and the date of the six days' work of creation, for the Bible gives us no explanation on these points; but by most of the learned of the present day, and by all eminent geologists, the "six days" are understood to be indefinite periods of time, as it is said that, with the Almighty, "a thousand years are to be reckoned but as one day." It seems reasonable to suppose that they may have been prophetic periods looking into the past, and seen in vision by the inspired historian."

Willson's explanation in 1861 shows that the church had already compromised with evolution two years after Darwin published his theory.

According to this idea, the creation was actually a re-creation out of chaos; presumably caused by the destruction of a previous world ruled by Satan and the dark angels. The "gap" theory, as some people called it, tried to stretch the period between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 into millions or billions of years.

Another attempt to stretch out the creation period was the redefinition of the word "day" to mean "age" as an indefinite span of time. The Willson Reader had the distinction of trying to incorporate both theories, attempting to maintain a literal interpretation of Genesis while holding to an evolutionary geologic view. This points out that the basic issue still hasn't changed a whole lot.

Ultimately there is only two possibilites for the origin of the universe.

1. In the beginning dirt
2. In the beginning God

Life and the universe either created itself, or it was created. There is no other option.

There are offshots of the two however,

1. Macroevolution-
Molecules to man. Atheistic.

2.Theistic Evolution-
God intervened and helped evolution along. Unbelief in a literal Genesis.

3. The Gap Theory-
Theistic. Ruin-reconstruction.

4. Day-Age Theory-
Theistic. Long ages instead of days.

5. Literal Six Day Creation-
Theistic. No attempt to reconcile evolution with the Bible.


These theories or combinations of them are the only alternatives. For example, the idea that space aliens imported life from another planet is really another version of macroevolution, with the time factor pushed back into oblivion.

In 1884, L. T. Townsend wrote a book called "The Bible and The Nineteenth Century." In it, he offered quite a bit of wisdom which we could apply today2

"From very early times to the present, men have declared that the teachings of the Bible--not its supposed, but its actual teachings--and the teachings of science are in conflict. And we are willing to admit that Bible-writers and scientific men more than once have not been in agreement.

But this admission does not with it the confession that the Bible is necessarily wrong. For, if science were wrong and the Bible right, there would be a conflict just the same as if the reverse were true. Does anyone suppose that science has always been free from error, or always in agreement with itself?

"It is now thirty-five years' says Sharon Turner, 'since my attention was turned to these considerations. It was then the fashion of science, and of a large part of the educated world, to rush into a disbelief of all written revelation: and several geological speculations were directed against the Bible. But I have lived to see the most hostile of these destroyed.' At the date here referred to, there were conflicts between the teachings of science and those of the Bible; that is the errors of science and the truths of the Bible. The Bible can hardly be condemned for not harmonizing with error, though the error is in strictest scientific garb, and is supported by able scientific authorities.

Dr. Townsend continues to caution the reader that many scientific opinions of the day were not established, and could change with further research.

"We must not, therefore, decide matters hastily. We must be sure at least of two things, before pronouncing against the correctness of biblical statement; namely, correctness of interpretation and the firm establishment of scientific fact.

Had this rule governed skeptical thought and expression during the last half century, much that has been said against the Bible would not have been spoken."

Why haven't we learned from the mistakes of the past? Every time scientists find a new fossil, we think it is proof that life evolved. But if we examine the evidence closely and start with different assumptions, we find that the evidence is not in conflict with the Bible, but with evolution. An example is the so-called horse series, which on the surface appears to prove evolution. Closer examination finds evidence contradicting evolution.

These creationist world views compromised with certain aspects of evolution by examining the wording and interpretation of Genesis to make it fit the concept of long ages. In recent times, though, creation scientists reject long ages because of the scientific evidence, not because of theology. There is no need to warp scripture to fit a warped science. A brief examination of the Gap Theory and the Day-Age theory reveal many scientific and theological problems.

PROBLEMS WITH THE

DAY-AGE THEORY

The attempt to make the word "day" referring to the six days of creation mean an "age" millions of years long fails many important tests. Some of the numerous objections to this theory follows:3

1 If the Hebrew word "yom" meant "age" instead of "day", why did the phrase "evening and morning" appear in the account? It would be hard to put an evening and a morning on an age. The word was clearly defined when it was first used, when in Genesis 1:5 it referred to an evening and a morning.

2. In Exodus 20:11, the Scripture says that "in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is." This reference is from the Ten Commandments, where God commanded rest on the seventh day. The verse can't refer to six "ages" and the Sabbath "day" using the same word to mean two different things in the same sentence.

3. If the writer of Genesis wanted to convey the idea of long ages, he could have used the word "olam" meaning a long indefinite span of time, instead of "yom."

If the main purpose of the day-age theory is to try to fit the geologic ages into the six days of creation, there are so many contradictions between the two accounts that it fails miserably, even if a Biblical paraphrase would permit it. Compare the two accounts:

BIBLICAL ACCOUNT(B)

EVOLUTION(B)


B- Earth covered with water from the beginning.
E- Water gradually oozed out of the interior over long ages.

Genesis 1:7 speaks of a firmament separating two expanses of water.

Completely rejects this concept.

B-First life was on land.
E-Life was in the Oceans.

B-Fruit trees developed first, then fish.
E-Fish and other marine organisms developed before fruit trees.

B-One of the first created animals mentioned in the Bible was the whale (Genesis 1:21).
E-The first organisms were the protozoa.

B-Animals reproduced "after its kind".
E-Slow ascent of all organisms from a common ancestor.

B-Six days of creation.
E-No such six fold division occurs in the geologic record.


The book, "Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science" by Henry M. Morris outlines many additional problems created when people try to reconcile the six days of creation with long ages. Even if the "day" mentioned in Genesis was "as a thousand years," six thousand years isn't enough time to fit the geologic ages. Even six million years won't work. The natural reading of Scripture just does not permit this interpretation.

THE GAP THEORY

The gap theory trys to fit five billion years of earth history between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Proponents of this theory suggest that God destroyed the original earth ruled by Satan with a great cataclysm and became "without form and void" as described in Genesis 1:2.

Like the day-age theory, the gap theory has significant problems. For example:

1.Why would a five billion year history of the earth be ignored by the writers of scripture?

2. If there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, why would Genesis 1:2 start with the word "and", implying a direct connection between the two?

3. The gap theory hinges on the redefinition of the word "was" in Genesis 1:2 to "became". Neither the general usage of the Hebrew word nor the context indicates that this is the case.

4. Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:11 both say that God made the heavens at the same time He made the earth. Since "heavens" were mentioned only in the first verse, it implys that the two verses are connected.

5. There is no mention in scripture that Satan's fall in heaven produced a cataclysm here on earth. Satan was only "cast to the earth" after his fall (Ezekiel 28:17). In fact, how could everything be "very good" after the six days of creation if Satan was roaming the earth then? Satan's fall quite likely occurred after Genesis 1:31, when everything was still "good", and Genesis 3:1, when he appeared to Eve.

6. Since the theory of evolution and the concept of long ages is highly dependent on the concept of uniformitarianism and the gradual accumulation of strata and fossils over a period of millions of years, the Gap Theory cataclysm comes in direct conflict with the assumptions of the dating methods it is trying to reconcile itself with. A cataclysm resulting from the judgment of God would have produced quick burial of all of the fossils at once, rather than an accumulation over millions of years.

7. Just how many millenia did plants live (created "day" 3) without sunlight (created "day" 4), which all land plants are dependent upon for light, warmth, reproduction, photosynthesis, and their day/night cycles?

Many plants are almost totally dependent upon insects for pollenization and reproduction. Some also depend on birds and animals. Such plants could not have survived for more than a single life cycle much less millions of years (again, plants came on "day" 3, insects day "6"... millions/billions of years later?).

God did not "give every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth..." as food for "all the beast... birds... creatures... [and] everything that has the breath of life in it..." until day 6. Why would God wait millions/billions of years to declare this? The phrase "And it was so" seems to indicate that it was at the moment that God spoke that this law was established for both man and beast.

There is no need to presume a flood of Noah provides an adequate explanation for the fossil record.

Just like the day-age theory, the gap theory creates more problems than it solves. Instead of satisfying science, it introduces more contradictions and difficulties. Note the following comparison:

1.GAP THEORY
2.PROBLEMS


1.World wide cataclysm before the flood.
2.Nothing in geologic record or The Bible that says this.

1.Attributes most fossils to the pre-world.
2.Most fossils are identical to those found in the present world.

1.Teaches the existence of pre-Adamic men.
2.Bible teaches Adam was the "first man" (I Corinthians 15:47).

1.Does not resolve the problem of evolution, but just pushes it back before the Creation.
2.Indicates that God changed his method from evolution to creation.

1.World wide cataclysm before Adam.
2.Geologic ages would be eliminated. There would also be no room for the flood of Noah.


Obviously, the day-age and gap theories do not accomplish what they set out originally to do. I believe these two theories have set back the cause of Christ because they have allowed compromise with the theory of evolution. These two theories may satisfy some who are content with a cursory reading of scripture and want a quick and easy explanation. But to those who are serious about finding the truth, no agreement between evolution and scripture is possible.

The ramifications of this conclusion are far reaching. If we cannot reconcile the theory of evolution to scripture, it means that more than a century of scientific reasoning has been in error.

How could this be in this age of enlightenment?

I believe that it is for religious reasons, not scientific, that the theory of evolution with its long ages has been embraced. With the theory of evolution, mankind has found the means in which to push God out of the picture, or way back in eons of time where he can forget Him. The motivation behind this is so strong that it often results in people becoming very hostile and sometimes violent when confronted with scientific evidence contradicting their theory. Christians must come to grips with the fact that evolution is diametrically opposed to their faith.



REFERENCES

1Willson, Marcius. "The Fifth Reader of the School and Family Series." Harper Brothers. New York. 1865.

2Townsend, L.T. "The Bible and Other Ancient Literature in the Nineteenth Century." Chautaugua Press. New York. 1884.

3Morris, Henry M. "Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science." Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company. Phillipsburg, NJ. 1970.

Is evolution science and creation religion?

We can make a valid distinction between different types of science: the distinction between origins science and operational science. Operational science involves discovering how things operate in today's Creation repeatable and observable phenomena in the present. This is the science of Newton. However, origins science deals with the origin of things in the past unique, unrepeatable, unobservable events.(26)

There is a fundamental difference between how the two work. Operational science involves experimentation in the here and now. Origins science deals with how something came into existence in the past and so is not open to experimental verification / observation. Studying how an organism operates (DNA, mutations, reproduction, natural selection etc.) does not tell us how it came into existence in the first place.

Both evolution and creation fall into the category of origins science. Both are driven by philosophical considerations. The same data (observations in the present) are available to everyone, but different interpretations (stories) are devised to explain what happened in the past.

The important question is not 'Is it science?' We can just define 'science' to exclude everything that we don't like, as evolutionists do today. Today, science is equated with naturalism: only materialistic notions can be entertained, no matter what the evidence. The prominent evolutionist Professor Richard Lewontin said:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfil many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't science about following the evidence wherever it may lead? This is where the religion (in the broadest sense) of the scientist puts the blinkers on. Our individual worldviews bias our perceptions. The atheist paleontologist, Stephen Jay Gould, made the following candid observation:

<font color="blue"> [ QUOTE ]
Our ways of learning about the world are strongly influenced by the social preconceptions and biased modes of thinking that each scientist must apply to any problem. The stereotype of a fully rational and objective 'scientific method', with individual scientists as logical (and interchangeable) robots is self-serving mythology.'


[/ QUOTE ] </font>

So the fundamentally important question is, 'which worldview (bias) is correct?', because this will determine the correctness of the conclusions from the data.

Does debunking evolution, mean creation?

Yes!

As stated earlier there are only two options.

1. Life created itself.

2. Life was created.

All other theories are simply off shoots of the two above scenarios.

Considering there is only two options, if theory one can be shown to be extremely unsound, then theory two becomes so overwhelmingly convincing it is the ouly rational philosophy.

Events of the past, such as the origins of life, are ultimately untestable by science. Science can never absolutely prove anything regarding these matters and thus any belief, no matter how scientific one may think it to be, requires some measure of faith.(25)

Science can, however, disprove hypotheses which are internally contradictory or go against the laws of physics, chemistry, mathematics, or geological evidence. Accordingly, a belief that life arose naturally on earth can be effectively disproven, to the point that anybody who chooses to believe in it can be shown to be holding great amounts of faith. At this point, one must ask the more personal and philosophical question, why?

The basic idea behind the chemical origins of life is that simple molecules became more complex molecules which eventually allowed the first auto-catalytic self-reproducing molecule to exist. Many would define the chemical origins of life as the existence of a single molecule that was not only able to replicate on its own, but could produce any molecules necessary to facilitate that replication.

1. Could the soup have ever been produced?

In the 1950's, Stanley Miller appeared to have found a way to make some of the ingredients of the soup by "zapping" a mixture of H2, HCN, H2O, CH4, CHO, and NH3 gasses with an an electric spark. The first time Miller got nothing but brown tar but after more experiments he has obtained (albeit often in very small amounts) at least 19 of the 20 amino acids upon which life is built. Furthermore, it has been found that comets and carbonacous asteroids, which are thought to have been constantly bombarding the earth early in its history, can contain appreciable amounts of organic molecules. All this looks promising at first when trying to build up an ancient storehouse of pre-biotic organic chemicals.

However, the cake-baking analogy from above analogy now holds quite true! Just as a baker adds the proper ingredients to bake a cake, so the researchers designed their pre-biotic synthesis experiments in such a way as to get the sought-after organic molecules. Methane (CH4) and ammonia (NH3), were chosen not because they were actually thought to be a part of the early atmosphere but rather because they are essential to the production of the proper amino acids and gave the desired results. Even Stanley Miller admits that "it is assumed that amino acids more complex than glycene were required for the origin of life, then these results indicate a need for CH4 (methane) in the atmosphere"7. Whether or not these gasses actually simulated any real conditions on earth is a question they were far from asking. They just wanted to see if they could produce the right molecules using various contrived mixtures of gasses. Given the simple molecules they were trying to synthesize, these experiments are little more than simple exercises in organic chemistry and literally say nothing about the chemical origins of life.

"Miller-experiments" only work with gasses which would have formed a chemically reducing atmosphere (one with gasses which tend to lose electrons during chemical reactions). No free oxygen can be used in Miller experiments, however, in the absence of oxygen, there would be absolutely nothing to protect the pre-biotic chemicals from destruction by UV radiation, which is thought to have been 100 times stronger on the early earth than it is today14. Today, we all have heard that ozone in the atmosphere protects life from harmful UV radiation. However, ozone is composed of oxygen which is the very gas that Stanley Miller-type experiments avoided, for it prevents the synthesis of organic molecules like the ones obtained from the experiments!

Pre-biotic synthesis now finds itself in "****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't" scenario:
1. Pre-biotic synthesis can only take place in a reducing atmosphere, but that very fact would guarantee the destruction of highly sensitive pre-biotic chemicals by UV rays.
2. You could protect the molecules with oxygen, but in doing so you'd eliminate any chance of their production in the first place.8

The primordial soup cannot be dilute, but must be rich in amino acids and other organic molecules, allowing for many (nearly infinite) random chemical interactions to lessen the improbability of life's origin. Not only would UV radiation destroy any molecules that were made, but their own short lifespans would also greatly limit their numbers. For example, at 100ºC (boiling point of water), the half lives of the nucleic acids Adenine and Guanine are 1 year, Uracil is 12 years, and Cytozine is 19 days8 (nucleic acids and other important proteins such as chlorophyl and hemoglobin have never been synthesized in origins-of-life type experiments17, but we'll forget about that for now). Such short-lived molecules could never be stockpiled, even if they could be produced naturally. For this reason, Miller proposed a cold origins of life (for at 0ºC their half-lives jump about 1 million years) even though at that temperature Ribose, a sugar which helps build DNA, has a half-life of 44 years5, and Cytozine a half life of 17,000 years8. The catch, once again, is that mathematical calculations based upon models for earth's formation say that back then the earth was an extremely hot place! Who eats cold soup anyways? This is another example where the conditions of the early earth are assumed because they are the only ones which allow for the chemical origins of life, not because there is any actual evidence for them.

Another problem facing the soup is the fact that all biological organic molecules must somehow acquire the proper "handedness", known as "chirality." Amino acids can either exist in a "right-handed" form, or in the mirror image "left-handed" form. From the standpoint of doing chemistry, left-handed molecules are no different than right-handed ones. Yet, for some unknown reason, life uses only left-handed molecules amino acids. At what point did life begin to discriminate between right and left handed molecules? There is no known chemical reaction which "weeds out" the "right" from the "left" for all known chemical reactions produce more or less "racmic mixtures," of 1/2 right and 1/2 left handed molecules. As one scientist stated, "the basis for the origin of biomelecular chirality still remains obscure9".

Oh yeah, and what about building a soup by comets and asteroids? This hypothesis has been refuted by many authors who have shown that organic carbon could not be delivered in large amounts to the early earth because it would be generally superheated and destroyed during impact13.

2. Is there any geochemical evidence that the soup ever existed?

There isn't a shred of geological evidence left in the rocks that a primordial soup ever existed. If there was ever a soup, the earliest precambrian rocks should contain high levels of non-biological carbon, for biologically produced carbon contains an excess of "isotopically light" carbon. Ancient sedimentary rocks, however, do not reveal this signature10, and thus there is no positive evidence for this soup.

There is also no evidence that the methane-ammonia atmosphere necessary for prebiotic synthesis ever existed10, 11. If if it had, then the rocks thought to be from that time period ougth to contain an "unusually large proportion of carbon or organic chemicals"11, which they do not11. It has also been shown that even a significant quantity of ammonia in the primitive atmosphere would have been destroyed within 30,000 years by UV rays11 and methane within a few tens of years16. In fact, the geological evidence actually seems to point to a predominantly CO2 atmosphere11, however "Miller-experiments" using CO2 have produced no amino acids other than small quantities of Glycine15. Many have thought that the early atmosphere was produced by intense volcanic activity on the earth, but magma tends to release only N2, CO2, and H2 gasses, not methane or ammonia16. Since the ammonia-methane atmosphere never existed, there is no way to create a soup. Some have even suggested that even if there was an ammonia-methane atmosphere, it wouldn't have produced a soup, but rather an oil slick perhaps up to 10 m thick12. If there was a 10 meter thick sludge of carbon enveloping the entire earth, where is the evidence of it? Some have claimed that there isn't any evidence for it becuase once life evolved, it consumed the entire prebiotic storehouse of molecules and left no trace of its existence. This convenient explanation fails, for rocks would have been formed on the earth during the time of the soup, but before the supposed origin of life, thus preserving a record of the primodial organics. There is no evidence, however, of these primordial organics.

So drastic is the evidence against pre-biotic synthesis, that in 1990 the Space Studies Board of the National Research Council recommended to scientists a "reexamination of biological monomer synthesis under primintive Earthlike environments, as revealed in current models of the early Earth"16.

Many speculate that given a primordial soup, the chemical origins of life does not seem quote so improbable. However, it would appear that the existence of the primordial soup itself may have been greatly improbable. For as second, let's reason like the scientists do: The primordial soup seems necessary for life's natural origin, life evolved naturally, therefore the primordial soup must have existed! Unfortunately, the converse is also true. If the primordial soup is necessary for life's origin, but the soup didn't exist, than life didn't arise naturally. Assuming, for a second, that the primordial soup did come to exist, we are now ready to analyze the second major step in the chemical origins of life: could the molecules in the soup have come together to make larger, more complex molecules.

Many of the origins of life scenarios are falsifiable, and, given the evidence, are most likely false. Other theories are completely unfalsifiable, exposing the fact that they are only promoted due to philosphy, not scientific evidence. Despite all this, the natural chemical origins of life on earth is still taught, researched, and funded by the government as if it were a legitimate scientific enterprise. All this is owed to the naturalistic philosophy of science2, and what I think is a little too much late-night science fiction reading. However, even the staunchest evolutionists will usually admit that no one is even close to explaining how DNA-based life could arise from nonliving materials, and when pressed, do not usually try to impose their views regarding the origins of life upon the "unbeliever." One wonders, then, why almost every high school textbook and introductory college biology class teaches that the natural chemical origins of life took place about 3-4 billion years ago in, as Charles Darwin first said, some "warm little pond".

Is evolution science?

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="green"> Given so much time,
the "impossible" becomes possible,
The possible probable,
And the probable virtually certain,
One only has to wait:
Time itself performs the miracles."
(Wald, G. (1954), Scientific American) </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Here time is given magical supernatral properties.

Science rightly deals with the present state of nature and the processes, which presently operate, in nature. Creationists and evolutionists agree precisely when dealing with these issues, (i.e., with science). All agree on the nature of the genetic code or the array of fossils, or the laws of physics, biology, and chemistry. How then can there be such disagreement about the past?

This present/past issue is the crux of the creation/evolution controversy. No scientist had direct access to the past all are locked in the present, studying the evidence, which exists in the present, observing the processes, which operate in the present. Science is limited to the present. It is not illegitimate for a scientist to attempt to reconstruct the past to try to answer the question, "What happened in the past to make the present get to be this way?" But, clearly, that is not the same thing as empirical science. Both evolution and creation are historical reconstructions, not observations.

As creationists, we insist that we cannot scientifically prove creation or disprove evolution. Both are ways of thinking schemes by which we can interpret present data. All we can do is study the evidence in the present and see which historical reconstruction is more likely correct.

Present data include the incredible design of living systems which, look for the entire world as if they were "manufactured" by an intelligent designer, and not the random by-product of chance processes. We have the universal Second Law of Thermodynamics, which shows that things become more disordered through time, not more complex, as evolution insists. We see no clue in the fossil record that any basic category of animal ever came from any other basic category. And on and on.

These scientific observations fit well with the creation model, but not at all well with the evolution model. We cannot scientifically prove or disprove either creation or evolution, mainly because we don't have direct access to the past, but we can assert that creation is better the one most likely correct.

But creationists have another advantage. Even though we can't "study the past," we can study the record of One who was an active eyewitness throughout the past, who can accurately communicate His thoughts and deeds, and whose Word is true.

1. Life Itself, by Francis Crick (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1981) and Directed Panspermia by F. H. C Crick and L. E. Orgel, Icarus 19:341-346 (1973)
2. "it is the job of science to provide plausible natural explanations for natural phenomena"
(Science and Creationism, a view from the National Academy of Sciences (2nd edition), Nat Acad Press, 1999. Pg. 20. At "http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/")
3. Information Theory and Molecular Biology. Hubert P. Yockey, 1992, Cambridge University Press. The reader is encouraged to check out chapters 8-10 for a good discussion of the problems with the natural chemical origins of life. This book is available from the UCSD Libraries.
4. "Creationists have looked forward to the day when science may actually create a "living" thing from simple chemicals. They claim, and rightly so, that even if such a man-made life form could be created, this would not prove that natural life forms were developed by a similar chemical evolutionary process. The scientist understands this and plods on testingtheories."
(Stansfield, William D. [Professor of Biological Sciences, California Polytechnic State University], "The Science of Evolution," [1977], Macmillan: New York NY, 1983, Eighth Printing, pp10-11)
5. Statments made by Stanley Miller at a talk given by him for a UCSD Origins of Life seminar class on January 19, 1999 (the talk was attended and notated by the author of this article).
6. Overman, Dean L. "Case against Accident and Self-Organization" (Rowman &amp; Littlefield Publishers, 1997) The reader is encouraged to read Parts III and IV for a good non-technical discussion of problems facing the natural chemical origins of life.
7. Stanley Miller as quoted in Origins: A skeptics guide to the Creation of Life on Earth by Robert Shapiro (New York: Sion and Schuster, Summit Books, 1986), pg. 112.
8. Denton, Michael. Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Bethesda, Md.: Adler and Adler, 1985), pg. 261).
8. Levy, Matthew and Stanley Miller. The Stability of the RNA bases: Implications for the origin of life. Proceedings of National Academy of Science, USA (Vol. 95, pg. 7933-7938).Darwin, Charles (1898). The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Vol II, p. 202. New York: D. Appleton.
9. Bonner, William A. "Origin and Amplifications of Biomolecular Chirality"
10. Schopf, J. William in Exobiology (edited by Cyril Ponnamperuma), North-Holland Publishing Company: Amsterdam-London, 1972 in the Precambrian paleobiology chapter, Pg. 27.
11. Abelson, Philip H. "Chemical Events on the Primitive Earth," from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA, Vol 55 Pg. 1365-1372 (1966).
12. Lasaga, Antonio, H. D. Holland, M. J. Dwyer. "Primordial Oil Slick". Science vol 174, Oct 4, 1971 pg. 53-55.
13. Anders, Edward. "Pre-biotic organic matter from comets and asteroids." Nature, Vol 342, November 16, 1989 pg. 255-257.
14. Canuto V. M., Levine, J. S., Augustsson, T. R., Imhoff, C. L., Giampapa, M. S. "The young Sun and the atmosphere and photochemistry of the early Earth". Nature Vol 305, September 22, 1983, pg. 281-286.
15. Schlesinger, Gordon and Stanley. L Miller. "Prebiotic Synthesis in Atmospheres Containing CH4, CO, and CO2." Journal of Molecular Evolution, Vol 19 pg. 376-382 (1983).
16. The Search for Life's Origins. National Research Council Space tudies Board, National Academy Press: Washington D.C., 1990, pg. 66, 67, 126)
17. Brooks J., "Origins of Life," Lion: Tring, Hertfordshire UK, 1985, p.87
18. Vaneechoutte, M., The scientific origin of life. Considerations on the evolution of information, leading to an alternative proposal for explaining the origin of the cell, a semantically closed system. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 901, 139,2000.
19. Safarti, Jonathan. "Self-Replicating Enzymes?" Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 11(1):4-6, 997. Also available at fix this!!!
20. Tjivikua, T., Balester, P. and Rebek, J., Jr., 1990. A Self-Replicating System. J. Amer. Chem. Soc., 112(3):1249-50.
21. Lee, D. H., Granja, J. R., Martinez, J. A., Severin, K., and Ghadiri, M., R., 1996. A self-replicating peptide. Nature 382:525-528 ...also see Nature 382:496-497.
22. Maynard Smith, John [Emeritus Professor of Biology at the University of Sussex] &amp; Szathmary, Eors Day = Day[/b]

[i]11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


This is a simplistic yet viatal concept.

In six days God did a few things.

made the heaven
made the earth
the sea
and everything in them

How many days? For in six days

That is pretty easy to follow. God laid out specifically in Genesis what exactly occured in this scheme in which precise day.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20011207_95.jpg

Order of Creation in Christian and Jewish Biblical Records
(book of Genesis 1-2)

Day One-

Watery, formless planet Earth suspended in the darkness and void of space (no stars, no sun, no moon, no planets - except for Earth).

Light.

Separation of light from the darkness - and the first indication that the planet is rotating (day and night cycle produced).

Day Two-

Formation of Earth's atmosphere, separating the water into two parts:
(a) oceanic and subterranean water
(b) atmospheric water.

Day Three-

Dry land and oceans.

System to water the entire land surface using subterranean waters (involving springs or mist, or both).

Vegetation, seed-bearing plants, trees that bear fruit.

Garden of Eden (probably).

Day Four-

Sun

Moon - complete with established orbit so as to mark passage of time (months, seasons, and years).

Stars and other planets.

Day Five-

Water creatures of all kinds. (All that had "the breath of life" were vegetarian.)

Birds (all vegetarian).

Day Six-

Land animals (all vegetarian): (a) creatures that move close to the ground (small animals), (b) large animals, and (c) animals of use to man as livestock.

Man.

Woman (saving the best for last).

So how long is a day? Many would like day in quotes.

The first question needs to be why wouldn't day mean day?

Is it because of something we legitimately read from the bible? Or is it something we need to "fit" millions of years in the bible.

I surmise it is option two.

The Word day, is used 2031 times in the Old Testament, yet the only place it is questioned is in Genesis one.

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Evolutionists sometimes accuse Creationists of believing that the whole Bible should be taken literally. This is not so!
Rather, the key to a correct understanding of any part of the Bible is to ascertain the intention of the author of the portion or book under discussion. This is not as difficult as it may seem, as the Bible obviously contains:


Poetry - as in the Psalms, where the repetition or parallelism of ideas is in accordance with Hebrew ideas of poetry, without the rhyme (parallelism of sound) and metre (parallelism of time) that are important parts of traditional English poetry. This, by the way, is the reason that the Psalms can be translated into other languages and still retain most of their literary appeal and poetic piquancy, while the elements of rhyme and metre are usually lost when traditional Western poetry is translated into other languages.

Parables - as in many of the sayings of Jesus, such as the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:3-23), which Jesus Himself clearly states to be a parable, and in which He gives meanings for the various items, such as the seed and the soil.

Prophecy - as in the books of the last section of the Old Testament (Isaiah to Malachi).

Letters - as in the New Testament epistles written by Paul, Peter, John, and others.

Biography - as in the Gospels.

Autobiography/Testimony - as in the book of Acts where the author, Luke, after narrating the Apostle Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus as a historical fact (Acts 9:1-19), then describes two further occasions when Paul included this conversion experience as part of his own personal testimony (Acts 22:1-21; 26:1-22).

Authentic historical facts - as in the books of 1 and 2 Kings, etc.

Thus the author's intention with respect to any book of the Bible is usually made clear from the style and the content. If we apply the normal principles of biblical exegesis (ignoring pressure to make the text conform to the evolutionary prejudices of our age), it is overwhelmingly obvious that Genesis was meant to be taken in a straightforward, obvious sense as an authentic, literal, historical record of what actually happened.

Are any of these chapters poetry? To answer this question we need to examine in a little more depth just what is involved in the parallelism of ideas that constitutes Hebrew poetry.

Let us consider Psalm 1:1, which reads as follows: 'Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.' Here we see triple parallelism in the nouns and verbs used (reading downwards in the following scheme):

walketh counsel ungodly
standeth way sinners
sitteth seat scornful

As well as this overt parallelism, there is also a covert or subtle progression of meaning. In the first column, 'walketh' suggests short-term acquaintance, 'standeth' implies readiness to discuss, and 'sitteth' speaks of long-term involvement. In the second column, 'counsel' betokens general advice, 'way' indicates a chosen course of action, and 'seat' signifies a set condition of mind. In the third column, 'ungodly' describes the negatively wicked, 'sinner' characterizes the positively wicked, and 'scornful' portrays the contemptuously wicked.

Other types of Hebrew poetry include contrastive parallelism, as in Proverbs 27:6, 'Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful', and completive parallelism, as in Psalm 46:1, 'God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in time of need.' [3].

And so we return to our question. Are any of the first 11 chapters of Genesis poetry?

Answer: No, because these chapters do not contain information or invocation in any of the forms of Hebrew poetry, in either overt or covert form, and because Hebrew scholars of substance are agreed that this is so (see below).

Note: There certainly is repetition in Genesis chapter 1, e.g. 'And God said . . .' occurs 10 times; 'and God saw that it was good/very good' seven times; 'after his/their kind' 10 times; 'And the evening and the morning were the . . . day' six times. However, these repetitions have none of the poetic forms discussed above; rather they are statements of fact and thus a record of what happened, and possibly for emphasis - to indicate the importance of the words repeated.

Are any of these chapters parables? No, because when Jesus told a parable He either said it was a parable, or He introduced it with a simile, so making it plain to the hearers that it was a parable, as on the many occasions when He said, 'The kingdom of heaven is like . . . .' No such claim is made or style used by the author of Genesis 1-11.

Are any of these chapters prophecy? Not in their full context, although two promises of God are prophetic in the sense that their fulfilment would be seen in the future. One of these is Genesis 3:15, which was the pronouncement by God to the serpent (Satan) in metaphorical form: 'And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.' (NASB). Many have interpreted the 'seed' in this verse as the Messiah, including most evangelicals and even the Jewish Targums [4] hence the Talmudic expression 'heels of the Messiah' [5].

The Messiah would suffer wounds to His feet (on the Cross), but would completely destroy Satan's power. This verse also hints at the Virginal Conception, as the Messiah is called the seed of the woman, contrary to the normal Biblical practice of naming the father rather than the mother of a child (cf. Genesis chapters 5 and 11, 1 Chronicles chapters 1-9, Matthew chapter 1, Luke 3:23-38).
The other is Genesis 8:21-22 and 9:11-17,

'And the LORD said in His heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake . . . and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.'

Are any of these chapters letters, biography, or autobiography/ personal testimony? This is where we need to consider some of the subscripts mentioned above.
If Adam knew the events of Creation Days 1-6, they must have been revealed to him by God, as Adam was not made until Day 6, and so he could have known them only if God had told him. This view is reinforced by the words, 'These are the generations of [NIV: 'This is the account of'] the heavens and of the earth when they were created . . .' in Genesis 2:4a. The details of Day 7, the rest day, are included before this in Genesis 2:2-3, thereby completing (as we might expect) the record of a full seven-day week, before this subscript or closing signature appears.

Is Genesis 1-11 record of authentic historical facts?

Yes!

Venom
08-03-2003, 02:10 PM
INTERNAL EVIDENCE OF THE BOOK OF GENESIS

There is the internal evidence of the book of Genesis itself. As already mentioned, chapters 12-50 have always been regarded by the Jewish people as being the record of their own true history, and the style of writing contained in chapters 1-11 is not strikingly different from that in chapters 12-50.

Hebrew scholars of standing have always regarded this to be the case. Thus, Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">'Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:
(a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience
(b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story
(c) Noah's flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.
Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.' [9].

</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the main themes of Genesis is the Sovereignty of God. This is seen in God's actions in respect of four outstanding events in Genesis 1-11 (Creation, the Fall, the Flood, and the Babel dispersion), and His relationship to four outstanding people in Genesis 12-50 (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph). There is thus a unifying theme to the whole of the book of Genesis, which falls to the ground if any part is mythical and not true history; on the other hand, each portion reinforces the historical authenticity of the other. [10].

EVIDENCE FROM THE REST OF THE BIBLE

The principal people mentioned in Genesis chapters 1-11 are referred to as real - historical, not mythical - people in the rest of the Bible, often many times. For example, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Noah are referred to in 15 other books of the Bible.

The Lord Jesus Christ referred to the Creation of Adam and Eve as a real historical event, by quoting Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 in His teaching about divorce (Matthew 19:3-6; Mark 10:2-9), and by referring to Noah as a real historical person and the Flood as a real historical event, in His teaching about the 'coming of the Son of man' (Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-27).

Unless the first 11 chapters of Genesis are authentic historical events, the rest of the Bible is incomplete and incomprehensible as to its full meaning. The theme of the Bible is Redemption, and may be outlined thus:
i. God's redeeming purpose is revealed in Genesis 1-11,
ii. God's redeeming purpose progresses from Genesis 12 to Jude 25, and
iii. God's redeeming purpose is consummated in Revelation 1-22.

But why does mankind need to be redeemed? What is it that he needs to be redeemed from? The answer is given in Genesis 1-11, namely, from the ruin brought about by sin. Unless we know that the entrance of sin to the human race was a true historical fact, God's purpose in providing a substitutionary atonement is a mystery. Conversely, the historical truth of Genesis 1-11 shows that all mankind has come under the righteous anger of God and needs salvation from the penalty, power, and presence of sin.


Unless the events of the first chapters of Genesis are true history, the Apostle Paul's explanation of the Gospel in Romans chapter 5 and of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 has no meaning. Paul writes: 'For as by one man's [Adam's] disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one [Jesus] shall many be made righteous' (Romans 5:19). And, 'For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive . . . And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit' (1 Corinthians 15:21-22; 45). The historical truth of the record concerning the first Adam is a guarantee that what God says in His Word about the last Adam [Jesus] is also true. Likewise, the historical, literal truth of the record concerning Jesus is a guarantee that what God says about the first Adam is also historically and literally true.

If we apply the normal principles of biblical exegesis (ignoring pressure to make the text conform to the evolutionary prejudices of our age), it is overwhelmingly obvious that Genesis was meant to be taken in a straightforward, obvious sense as an authentic, literal, historical record of what actually happened.



How do we know when the word day means day?

Whenever the phrase 'evening and morning' is used outside of Genesis 1 without the word day (38 times) it always means an ordinary day no exception. Whenever the words 'evening' and 'morning' are used individually with the word day (in fact 23 times each) outside of Genesis 1, the word day always means an ordinary day.

Whenever the word 'night' is used with the word day (52 times outside of Genesis 1) the word day always means an ordinary day. In other words, whenever the word day is used with a number, or with the words evening or morning, or with the word night, or whenever the phrase 'evening and morning' is used, outside of Genesis 1 the Hebrew word for day always means an ordinary day, or the phrase evening morning means an ordinary day.

<font color="red"> 5 And God called the light Day , and the darkness he called Night . And the evening and the morning were the first day .
</font>

The entire verse is crammed full of every possible contexual way to demonstrate He is talking about one literal day.

God couldn't have made it any clearer, He used every possible means of showing a day = a day.

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<font color="purple"> And the evening and the morning were the second day . </font>

<font color="#666666"> And the evening and the morning were the third day .

</font>

<font color="brown"> 18 And to rule over the day and over the night , and to divide the light from the darkness : and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
</font>

There are so many obstacles to overcome if a day is not a day. Let's analyze some fundamental problems if the word day is compromised.

There are two main verses critics point to to try to demonstrate a day is not a day.

Hosea 6:2.

<font color="green"> 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
</font>

However, when one correctly understands the prophetic nature of this passage and how the word day is used here, one has to accept that it means an ordinary day, or the prophetic passage wouldn't make sense.

And the most infamous:

2 Peter 3:8-9

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Dr Kelly, an eminent systematic theologian, demonstrates from the Hebrew grammar of Genesis that no long-age compromise is possible. He also shows that a literal view of Genesis was overwhelmingly held by expert commentators throughout Jewish and Christian history. This changed only after 'millions of years' views became popular and commentators wrongly felt they had to re-interpret God's infallible word to fit man's fallible theories.

The first thing to note that the context has nothing to do with the days of creation. Also, it is not defining a day because it doesn't say "a day is a thousand years". The correct understanding is derived from the context the Apostle Peter's readers should not lose heart because God seems slow at fulfilling His promises because He is patient, and also because He is not bound by time as we are.

The text says 'one day is like [or as] a thousand years' the word 'like' (or 'as') shows that it is a figure of speech, called a simile, to teach that God is outside of time (because He is the Creator of time itself). In fact, the figure of speech is so effective in its intended aim precisely because the day is literal and contrasts so vividly with 1000 years to the eternal Creator of time, a short period of time and a long period of time may as well be the same.

The fact that the passage is actually contrasting a short and long period can be shown by the fact that Peter is quoting Psalm 90:4 (Peter's statement 'do not forget' implies that his readers were expected to recall something, and this passage has this very teaching). This reads:


<font color="red"> 'For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night. </font>

This is synonymous parallelism, where a long period of a thousand years is contrasted with two short periods: a day, and a night watch. But those who try to use this verse to teach that the days of Genesis might be 1000 years long forget the additional part in bold. For if they were consistent, they would have to say that a watch in the night here also means 1000 years. It's difficult to imagine that the same Psalmist (Psalm 63:6) is thinking on his bed for thousands of years or that his eyes stay open for thousands of years (Psalm 119:148).

The immediate context of the Psalm is the frailty of mere mortal man in comparison to God. This verse amplifies the teaching, saying that no matter how long a time interval is from man's time-bound perspective, it's like a twinkling of an eye from God's eternal perspective.

In any case, the meaning of day in Genesis 1 is defined by the context there the Hebrew word for day, yôm, is used with the words 'evening' and 'morning', and the days are numbered (first day, second day, etc.). Whenever yôm is used in such a context, it is always an ordinary day, never a long period of time. The meaning of the days of creation as ordinary days is also affirmed by Exodus 20:8-11, where God told the Israelites to work for six days and rest on the seventh because God had made all things in six days and rested on the seventh.

Problems with a day being a long age...

Gen. 1:14

<font color="red"> 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
</font>

If a day is not a day, what is a year, and what is a season?

<font color="green">1 Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.

2 And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days .
</font>

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Do Christians ever spend hours arguing about how long Joshua took to march around Jericho? Could it have been a million years or a hundred thousand years, or did he march around in a day? Of course Christians don't spend time arguing about this because they know what the word day means in context in regard to this section of Scripture.

Again, we need to ask the question as to why Christians seem to argue about the meaning of the word day in Genesis 1 to the exclusion of all of the other times the word day is used in the Old Testament.

In fact, a good question to ask people who argue about the meaning of the word in Genesis, is to answer the question as to when does the word day actually mean a literal 24-hour day? Most people do not have an answer to this. Many Christians are quick to say that the word day cannot mean an ordinary day in Genesis, and yet they don't know the answer as to when the word day in context should be interpreted as an ordinary day. This is a very important thing to point out. The Hebrew language, like any other language, has certain rules of grammar that clarify the precise meaning of each word. This applies to the word day as well as any other word.

<font color="brown">8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
</font>

How long are we to work for? 6 billion years, with 1 billion off?

Maybe because the next verse says,

<font color="purple">11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: </font>

Here in Leviticus:

<font color="red"> Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons .
</font>

Again God is directly comparing the work week to the creation week saying both are 6 literal days. If they are not literal days, how long is a season?

<font color="brown"> In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.

6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

</font>

He we are told to eat unleavened bread for 7 million years!

We could continue forever through all 2031 examples, and you will find if day is not taken as the Hebrew context demands the rest of the bible makes zero sense.

Should we compromise?

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/gap.jpg

Beyond the grammer, we have the assurance that there was no death before sin.

That is the next post.


Sources.

Adapted from J. Sidlow Baxter, Explore the Book, Vol. 1, pp. 27-29

This discussion of Hebrew poetry was adapted from J. Sidlow Baxter, Explore the Book, Vol. 1, pp. 13-16. Return to text

[4] Aramaic paraphrases of the OT originating in the last few centuries BC, and committed to writing about 500 AD. See F.F. Bruce, The Books and the Parchments, (Westwood: Fleming H. Revell Co., Rev. Ed. 1963), p. 133. Return to text

[5] A. G. Fruchtenbaum, Apologia 2(3):54-58, 1993. Return to text

[6] The use of the third person is no problem. Moses wrote the long account of his own life in Exodus to Deuteronomy in the third person, and many classical authors like Julius Caesar also wrote in the third person.

[7] Adam and Eve knew how to sew fig-leaf 'aprons' for themselves (Genesis 3:7). Within a few generations, Adam's descendants founded a city (Genesis 4:17), were tent-makers, cattle farmers, musicians with the ability to make both stringed and wind instruments, and metallurgists with the ability to smelt the ores of copper, tin and iron and then to forge all kinds of bronze and iron tools (Genesis 4:20-24). Dr Henry M. Morris comments in The Genesis Record (Baker Book house, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1976, pp. 146-7):

'It is significant to note that the elements which anthropologists identify as the attributes of the emergence of evolving men from the stone age into true civilization - urbanization, agriculture, animal domestication, and metallurgy - were all accomplished quickly by the early descendants of Adam and did not take hundreds of thousands of years.'

Russell Grigg, M.Sc. (Hons.), Creation Ex Nihilo Dec 93 - Feb 1994, Vol. 16 No. 1, pp. 38-41

[8]Henry Morris The Genesis Record, p. 97

[9]Letter from Professor James Barr to David C.C. Watson of the UK, dated April 23, 1984. Copy held by the author. Note that Prof. Barr does not claim to believe that Genesis is historically true; he is just telling us what, in his opinion, the language was meant to convey.

Death before Sin?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Aside from all the mental gymnastics that must be performed to insert evolution into the bible, there is the embarassing problem of Christ's Bodily Resurrection.

<font color="red"> 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
</font>

The belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of our faith!

<font color="green"> 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

</font>

If Christ is not raised we are:

1. False witnesses of God
2. Still in our sin before God
3. Our preaching and testimony is in vain
4. The dead will remain in the dirt.

<font color="red"> 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
</font>

Here we are seeing the first man, Adam, brought death into the world, and the Lord will bring the defeat of death, the resurrection of the dead.

In this same chapter Paul clearly preaches the need for the resurrection fo the dead. Man brought death into the world.

Why is evolution in no way compatible with the bible?

It preaches death millions of years before man even came into existance. It preaches death eons before sin.

In fact death is good! That is how we get ahead!

If that is the case, God has a strange defeniton of "very good"! That means death, disease, cancer, murder, is all "very good" to God. And really there is no need for Christ to ever return. After all nothing is messed up!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/images/death_oldage.gif

<font color="purple"> 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
</font>

Now of course that is not true.

Here in Revelations we see the curse is gone, and the fruit on the tree of life is free for the taking:

<font color="#666666"> 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him
</font>

Of course this entails there being a curse. But remember God just called death, destruction and blind random chance "very good"

Wrong.

The curse is going to be crushed by God...

<font color="red"> 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death , neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
</font>


This is all possible because Christ did indeed rise form the dead on the third day and is alive evermore:

<font color="brown"> 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
</font>

Now of course if Adam is metaphoric we are all in trouble. Christ came to correct what Adam messed up. If Adam did not exist, Christ had no purpose, and is still dead.

And this is a lie:

<font color="#666666"> 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
</font>

But Christ is raised!

And the dead will resurrect because Christ corrected what Adam messed up!

<font color="red"> 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

</font>

Here in lies the problem. If there was no literal Adam, Jesus had no purpose. The origin of sin is found in Genesis. If it is mearly wrong or fallible, Christ's death was in vain.

Christ is the second Adam:

<font color="red"> 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
</font>

If this doctrine is false, the whole hope of Christ is false. Christianity will fall flat on it's face.

Now if you were satan where is the first place you'd attack? The foundation. The Psalmists declared, "If the foundation be destroyed what can the righteous do?"

Here we see Christ declaring exactly what would happen:

<font color="blue"> 22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
</font>

And I declare evolution has done nothing to profite the cause of Christ. In fact if anything, it has destroyed it.

A kingdom divided against itself, can not stand.

Interestlingly enough evolution is debunked biblically in the same chapter:

<font color="red"> 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

</font>

"But can't we fit billions of years between verse 1:1 and 1:2?"

The simple answer is no.

God was made His Word so that the most intelligent rocket scientist to the most average layman could understand it.

If you read the bible ask yourself, if there were no outside influences would you honestly read millions or billions of years between two verses? I think not. That isn't consistent with one bit of logic or scripture.

The major reason why people doubt that the days of creation are 24-hour literal days usually has nothing to do with what the Bible says, but comes from outside influences. For example, many believe that because scientists have supposedly proved the earth to be billions of years old then the days of creation cannot be ordinary days.

The late Carl Sagan, in his book Contact, wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
If God is omnipotent and omniscient, why didn't he start the universe out in the first place so it would come out the way he wants? Why is he constantly repairing and complaining? No, there's one thing the Bible makes clear: The biblical God is a sloppy manufacturer. He's not good at design, he's not good at execution. He'd be out of business if there was any competition.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's easy to understand why Carl Sagan viewed the God of the Bible this way. Sagan believed that the fossil record, with all its death, mutations, disease, suffering, bloodshed and violence, represented millions of years of Earth's history. He also saw a world full of death, mutations, disease, suffering, bloodshed and violence today. So he concluded that any 'god' responsible for this seeming mess of life and death could not be all-powerful and all-knowing.

However death before sin is exactly what is taught by the Gap Theory, Progressive Creation, and Theistic evolution.

This is not the plain teaching of scripture. Read the bible without man's bias and the conclusion is obvious:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/images/death_youngage.gif

For example the Gap theory,


It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.

From Romans 5:12, "Therefore, even as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as have sinned,"

We understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam. The Bible teaches (1 Corinthians 15) that Adam was the first man, and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe. Before Adam sinned there could not have been any (nephesh) animal or human death. The followes of this ideology proclaim that there was a race of people before Adam that were destroyed when Lucifer fell. First off that is wishful thinking, there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in "Lucifer's flood" because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the first man.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/environment2.jpg

Vegetarians

Genesis 1:29-30 teaches us that the animals and man were originally created vegetarian. This is consistent with God's description of the creation as "very good." How could a fossil record which gives evidence of disease, violence, death, and decay (fossils have been found of animals apparently fighting and certainly eating each other) be described as "very good"? Thus, the death of billions of animals (and many humans) as seen in the fossil record must have occurred after Adam's sin. The historical event of Noah's flood, recorded in Genesis, provides an explanation for the presence of huge numbers of dead animals buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth.

Romans 8:22 teaches us that "we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now." Clearly the whole of creation was, and is, subject to decay and corruption because of sin. The fossil record shows disease, decay, and death. When gap theorists believe that disease, decay, and death existed before Adam sinned, they ignore that this contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

The version of the gap theory that puts Satan's fall at the end of the geological ages, just before the supposed pre-Adamic Lucifer's flood, has a further problem -- the death and suffering recorded in the fossils must have been God's fault. As it happened before Satan's fall, Satan and sin cannot be blamed for it.

Even worse, they must also theorize that Romans 5:12 and Genesis 3:3 refer only to spiritual death. But this contradicts other Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3:22-23). These passages tell us that Adam's sin led to physical death as well as spiritual death. In 1 Corinthians 15 the death of the last Adam (the Lord Jesus Christ) is compared with the death of the first Adam. Jesus suffered physical death for man's sin, because Adam, the first man, died physically because of sin. Genesis 3:22-23 tells us that if Adam and Eve could have partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever, but God decreed that they should die physically because of their sin.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/calvary-06a.jpg

In placing on man the curse of physical death, God provided a way to redeem man through the person of His Son Jesus Christ, who suffered the curse of death on the cross for us. "He tasted death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9). By becoming the perfect sacrifice for our sin and rebellion, He conquered death. He took the penalty that should rightly have been ours at the hands of a righteous judge, and bore it in His own body on the cross. All who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are received back to God to spend eternity with Him. That is the message of Christianity. To believe there was death before Adam's sin destroys the basis of the Christian message, because the Bible states that man's rebellious actions led to death and the corruption of the universe (Romans 8:19-22). Thus, the gap theory undermines the foundations of Christianity.

Genesis records a catastrophe that destroyed all organisms that had the "breath of life in them" except for those preserved in Noah's ark. Christ refers to Noah's flood in Matthew 24:37-39, and the apostle Peter writes that, just as there was once a global judgment of mankind by water, so there will be another worldwide judgment by fire (2 Peter 3).

It is more consistent with the whole framework of Scripture to attribute most fossils to Noah's flood than to resort to a strained interpretation of the fall of Satan and a totally speculative catastrophe that contributes nothing to biblical understanding, or to science.

Moreover, advocating death before Adam sinned contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture that death came only after Adam sinned and made man's redemption necessary.

The Pattern

The gap (or "ruin-reconstruction") theory is based on a very tenuous interpretation of Scripture.

The simple, straightforward meaning of Genesis 1:1-2 is that when God at the beginning created the earth it was initially formless, empty, and dark, and God's Spirit was there above the waters. It was through His creative energy that the world was then progressively "formed and filled" during the remaining six days of creation.

Consider the analogy of a potter making a vase. The first thing he does is get a ball of clay. What he has is good, but it is unformed. Next, he shapes it into a vase, using his potter's wheel. Now it is no longer formless. He then might dry it, apply glaze, and fire it. Now it is ready to be filled -- with flowers and water. At no time could one of the stages be considered evil or bad. It was just not finished -- unformed and unfilled. When it was finally formed and filled, it could be described as "very good."

God, of course, did not have to take six days to create everything, but he did this deliberately as a pattern for us -- for our seven-day week.

Many sincere Christians have invented reinterpretations of Scripture to avoid conflicts with "scientific" ideas. The gap theory was one such reinterpretation designed to fit in with scientific concepts that arose in the early 1800s and are still popular today.

There are other theories that attempt to fit evolution and the bible together. However the key to knowing if they are false doctrines is to begin looking for this one answer from their theories?

Do their theories incorporate death before sin?

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/gap.jpg

If so they have just called Jesus death to be in vain and all death "very good".

http://answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20010713_54.jpg

According to Carl Pagan:

<font color="red">According to Carl Sagan, "The secrets of evolution are death and time - the deaths of enormous numbers of life forms that were imperfectly adapted to the environment; and time for a long succession of small mutations that were by accident adaptive, time for the slow accumulation of patterns of favorable mutations."
</font>

Death was not part of God's original plan, and it's not part of his ultimate plan.

Nor did God use death to create or advance any parts of his Creation. He sent his son to defeat death. Death is not God's means or motive of creation.

<font color="red"> 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
</font>

http://answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20011102_86.jpg

This illustration also helps reinforce the consequence of what happens when someone believes in millions of years. When a Christian accepts the millions of years of Earth's history as taught by the secular world, then he also has to accept millions of years of death, diseases like cancer, violence, pain, suffering, thorns, etc. before man was created and before the first man Adam sinned.

At the end of the sixth day of Creation, God described all of His Creation as 'very good.' To be consistent, when a Christian allows for millions of years, he also has to accept that God describes millions of years of death, disease, bloodshed, suffering, pain, violence, etc. as 'very good.' The consequence of this is that God is responsible for the death, pain and violence we see in today's world.

Those who believe in the millions of years also believe that the same processes that have been going on for millions of years (processes of death, violence, struggle, etc.) are going on today and will continue to do so into the future. Thus, when a loved one dies, a Christian could consistently blame God for death. We have the picture here of a person shaking his fist at God because a loved one, such as a wife, has died; and so the close relative is asking God why He did this.

This is not God's Plan for mankind.

This is His Plan:

<font color="blue"> And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
</font>

<font color="#666666"> 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death
</font>


That's right! Jesus has the keys of hell and death!!! And he's coming to open the doors!

<font color="red"> 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words


</font>

The Rapture! Coming soon to a city near you!

Here is how we need to approach God when death comes to a loved one.

http://answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20011109_88.jpg

Death is not easy. Many of us have had it impact our lives dramatically. God is going to end this all soon.

Don't give up hope. And don't let satan use death to make you bitter towards God. Then he's got you in a true mess, and has you suffering twice as hard.

Give it to God.

<font color="red"> 3 But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.

4 I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah.

5 I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me.


</font>

Every person is under the condemnation of death because we are all sons and daughters of Adam. This is why it is so important that each one of us understands the salvation message and receives the free gift of salvation so we can spend eternity with the Lord.

Christ know what we are suffering though, and He set the perfect example for us to live by.

<font color="green"> 33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,

34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

35 Jesus wept.

36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
</font>

He knows what death, betrayal, temptation, all we have faced is about. He lived, breathed, experienced, and overcame it all for us! So we could give it to Him!

<font color="blue"> 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
</font>

<font color="brown"> 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
</font>

He knows what we are going through and is waiting to ask Him for help.

<font color="red"> 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

</font>

He already did the suffering.

<font color="green"> He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
</font>

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/images/oh20030328_167.jpg

William Ustav
08-03-2003, 02:42 PM
Whoa, awesome!!! I'm still reading the first one! I guess I'll have to print this one out as well and put it resting after part 2! Great, Venom! You, Jacob, Adam and Yu are really fantastic people! Without you guys I would've known nothing at all!

Thanks!!! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Venom
08-03-2003, 05:04 PM
Thanks William. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tuf
08-03-2003, 06:47 PM
That was really great, thank you all. The last section was especially meaningful to me. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
God is going to end this all soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red">
Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Peter 3
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
</font>

Gatecrasher
08-04-2003, 12:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Given so much time,
the "impossible" becomes possible,
The possible probable,
And the probable virtually certain,
One only has to wait:
Time itself performs the miracles."
(Wald, G. (1954), Scientific American)


[/ QUOTE ] I love this quote!

[ QUOTE ]
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

[/ QUOTE ] Praise be to God!

[ QUOTE ]
The Rapture! Coming soon to a city near you!

[/ QUOTE ] LoL!

Venom
08-04-2003, 02:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Given so much time,
the "impossible" becomes possible,
The possible probable,
And the probable virtually certain,
One only has to wait:
Time itself performs the miracles."
(Wald, G. (1954), Scientific American)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love this quote!

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, that was my favorite part to. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden
02-12-2004, 12:01 AM
George Wald has a faith I admire!

I could only dream of having as much faith as him! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif