Handicapped People-Bible Question

[CheezitMan22]

Hey, my brother in law and sister worked with handicapped people this week. what im wondering is, why does G-d bring these people into this world? i know they dont think its (their lives) bad, because they dont know any better, but we do know its bad.

why are they brought to earth to live a bad, hard life?i just dont understand.its driving me crazy. i mean, how come G-d just doesnt make them like us?

and when i think about all these diseases and stuff, my mind always strays to the thought of when i get married and have children, if they will all be normal.my brother in law said that 1/1000 children have some sort of problem. thats alot. thanks

P.S. if it makes a diff, im Jewish. i doubt it does though. thanks in advance everyone

[bananadude]

OK - first of all, God did not bring these people into the world. Their parents did. And God did not make them disabled. Their genetics did that. They just drew the short straw. And just because these people are disabled does not mean they are not able to live happy productive lives. For you to suggest they will automatically live a bad and hard life because of their condition is unbelievably ignorant and naive. "Make them like us?" Are you for real?!

[CheezitMan22]

I wasnt trying to be ignorant and naive you psycho. just chill lol. maybe i didnt word it right, but take a look at the lives we live, and all the stuff we can do, and look at them. im talking about the severely disabled people. it just seems...unfair to them.

[Serendipity]

Agrees with Bananadude.

My mother used to worked at an Independent Living. I occasionally volunteered there during weekends. These are places that help people with disabilities live independently. Getting people out of retirement homes, and into assisted living homes.

Your comments would not go over very well. From what I've heard and read, many people with disabilities are greatly defensive about their role in life. They are as productive, and contribute as much as anyone else.

There are even debates within the deaf community about the use of computer chips being installed in the brain to help people hear. Because in the end, you shouldn't have to change to be accepted by society. To be normal.

Christopher Reed has even hurt the disability rights movement by many of the comments he has made in reference to disabilities. That they are only to be tolerated when trying to be overcome.

I must say that I am somewhat offended by your comments about having a normal child. As someone with Axenfeld's syndrome, I run a good risk of having a child with some kind of disability (Glaucoma, heart disease, ect.). I have to think about whether I'll have children someday, but I find it sad that you wouldn't feel the same love for a child because it wasn't "normal".

Perhaps I misinterpreted, sorry if that's the case.

[CheezitMan22]

Sorry...of course i would love my child no matter what was wrong with them, but i would feel bad for them. this doesnt seem to be going over very well, sorry if i offended anyone.

[Fandango]

what i always thought is that people who have been disable not by choice(i.e. drinking while pregnant) G*d made them that way because he knows that they can handle it and still enjoy life as much as someone who is "normal". just my thoughts about it. this could be as little as someone who has asthma or as big as retardation by the way.

[Serendipity]

Eh, it was bad wording. That's all. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's a rather delicate issue.

I remember feeling awkward sometimes because it seemed that certain people wanted their disability confronted. They wanted it to be seen, and not ignored.

Meanwhile, it seemed others wanted their disability to go unnoticed. That there was nothing different about them at all.

[bananadude]

"Look at the lives we live" - you mean, of course, the lives Americans live. What about people in third world countries, or countries ravaged by Civil War. They have a fraction of the opportunities open to the disabled people you refer to (in the developed world). Ofcourse it's unfair, but that's the deck they were dealt and this is the world we live in. Whoever said it was supposed to be fair?

It's all down to genetics, but in the future (and even now to an extent) these conditions will be diagnosed prior to birth, so the parents have the choice of bringing the child into the world. Hopefully in the future cures can be found for such abnormalities. The future is certainly brighter in this regard, albeit marred in moral dilemma in regards to genetic testing, DNA modification etc.

I didn't mean to go off on one like that before, but the way you worded it got my back up!

[CheezitMan22]

Yeah it was extremely bad wording =\. and im asking a question more along the lines of what fandango posted.

Like, im talking about severely handicapped people, who cannot do anything. i guess you could even say blind or deaf people. i just feel so bad for em.

Sorry banana. Yeah that would be awesome if they could find cures to these diseases. Why are those schmoes finding ways to make cars better and faster when they could just donate some money to find cures. ugh!

[Fandango]

the only logical explaination i can think of is that disabilities are natural population controllers. now this may sound horrible and if it really is that bad than a mod please delete my post. but if there were no diseases in the world, no wars or anything, our world would be overpopulated extremely quickly. look at India or China, they are already "overgrowing" their country if you will.

[Venom]

The problem is, your putting on the wrong glasses.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20020927_138.jpg

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20010713_54.jpg

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20010914_78.jpg

You are looking through the secularized version of death and suffering. And fitting in the pagan religion of goo to you (evolution), with the bible. That's why you need a foundation, which is Genesis.

Here is the secular view mixed with creation:

Why is there death?
Because God used it to make us! He took millions of years of death, pain and suffering/random chance to make the world. Death is wonderful!

Is it someone's fault that death exists?
If you believe in a creator that made a universe that is now millions of years old, then death is the fault of that creator because the universe was made with death as a vital part of it.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20011102_86.jpg

Will there always be death?
Yes, at least until all life finally ceases to exist.

Will humans ever conquer death?
It is possible to extend life, but death is inevitable.

What can we do about death?
Live until we die.

This is what happens when you mix the religion of evolution with the Gods infallible word. Now when you put on biblical glasses, you see this:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20021004_139.jpg

http://www.answersingenesis.org/AfterEden/cartoons/ae7-14-2003.gif

And this is what you get, when you look by Gods word:

Why is there death?
God originally created a perfect universe (Genesis 1:31). There was no death until Adam disobeyed God by eating the forbidden fruit (Genesis 3). Because of Adam's rebellion (sin), God cursed His creation with death and suffering.

Is it someone's fault that death exists?
Yes. The Bible is clear that death is a consequence of human sin. It's our fault!

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.

However, if, as some believe, God created the universe billions of years ago, then death is God's fault because (according to that belief) He made the universe with death as a vital part of it long before humans appeared on the Earth. Death would not have come into the world through sin. This is a major reason why a belief in 'millions of years' and the Bible are not compatible.

Will there always be death?
Although there was no death in the beginning, we now suffer and sorrow in a world cursed with death. The good news is that the Bible tells of a future time when there will again be no death.

Revelation 21:4
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Will humans ever conquer death?
God has conquered death through His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus became a man and paid the price for man's sin by dying on a cross. He conquered death by raising from the dead. Anyone who places their trust in the complete work of Christ has the hope of eternal life when their Earthly life is finished.

John 5:24
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

What can we do about death?
The best thing anyone can do is to be prepared for death. Be sure you know where you will spend eternity.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Once a person receives the free gift of eternal life, there is much more to do than just waiting for death. We can live our lives serving the One who created us and saved us. Christians can also live without fear of death. In fact they can look forward to death realizing an eternity in Heaven awaits them when their life on Earth is through.

Philippians 1:20b-21
'so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

The most important thing Christians can do is tell others about the way to Heaven.

Mark 16: 15
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Read this article, Why is there Death & Suffering (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0114death_booklet.asp)

Here are some Audio clips you should listen to:

death and suffering (http://www.answersingenesis.org/AnswersMedia/play.aspx?mediaID=030724_ans)
'Ted Turner - and death and suffering?' (http://www.answersingenesis.org/AnswersMedia/play.aspx?mediaID=010829_ans)
'Why Do We Have Death and Suffering?' (http://'Ted Turner - and death and suffering?')
'Death--God is not to blame!' (http://www.answersingenesis.org/AnswersMedia/play.aspx?mediaID=010528_ans)

[bananadude]

In regards to Fandango's post, i find it very difficult to agree with this. If you believe that God makes innocent kids severely disabled simply because 'he' believes they can cope with it and lead normal lives, and plants a seed of pure evil in another so that one day they can go out and murder a little child, then i don't know how you can have any faith in God whatsoever, as to believe this is to acknowledge him as nothing short of cold hearted cruel sonofa*****! If you start bringing God and God alone into these equations, it all very quickly falls apart as far as i'm concerned.

If you do choose to take the religous viewpoint on the world around us, then it seems far more sensible to see the good and bad things that happen in this world as a sign of the constant battle between God and the Devil - the bad and evil things we see as evidence of the Devil's victories, and the good things we witness as evidence of God's.

[CheezitMan22]

Thanks Venom. Its not really the death thing im talking about though, its the severly handicapped people. Know what i mean?I appreciate that post though, some good stuff.

[Venom]

Death, pain, and suffering is because of man. Read the article and listen to audio clips. Covers everything.

[CheezitMan22]

Dang. Adam messed alot of things up then. But it kind of seems like adam was supposed to do that, because all the other things in the bible talk about death and stuff. but now that i look at it again, everything is in result of what adam did. meh

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[JRB]

[ QUOTE ]
bananadude said:
If you believe that God makes innocent kids severely disabled simply because 'he' believes they can cope with it and lead normal lives

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to say this because I feel like it is a tough subject but I feel I need to...

Exodus 34 6 & 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

First off God doesn't make kids severely disabled, it is a result of our own sin and those before us. Sin is bad and it doesn't go unpunished.

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death"

So god isn't evil. He really cuts us some slack because he knows we can't be perfect. He forgives us, but he still punishes us and others in various ways.

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey Heen.

After Christ sets up His kingdom, there will be no more sickness, death, or physical/mental handicaps.

Here in Isaiah 35 we are seeing a prophecy about the 1000 year reign of Christ:

<font color="red"> 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

</font>

God is going to remove the curse:

<font color="green"> 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.


</font>

Of course the removed curse is the curse of sin, which Adam brought into the world. Which resulted in the plauges of death, suffering, and thorns.

<font color="blue">23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
</font>

That is why Christ had to rise from the dead, to prove he has conqured the curse.

<font color="red"> 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
</font>

Which is why the second Adam, Jesus had to correct what Adam messed up.

<font color="green"> 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
</font>

And because of His resurrection, we all have life, and death will be defeated:

<font color="brown"> 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

</font>


<font color="red"> 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
</font>

[bigpoppadiesel]

hold up. so then god says that because my great great grandfather was an idiot thats my fault?! i had no control over what the idiot did or did not do. thats like having one guy rob a liquor store and to prove ur point u go and shoot his brother in the leg. thats the worst reasoning ive ever heard.

[[cyanide]

Heen, please read this: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/rosenblit01.html

This will answer many of your questions. This link does comment on handicapped people, and the author himself, is Jewish too! It's worth your time reading this. Thanks /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[bigpoppadiesel]

so then if my great grandfather didnt believe and didnt ask for forgiveness that is my fault? and i would be punished for his sins?

[JRB]

[ QUOTE ]
Yu Yevon said:
Clearly you are misinformed. Adam brought sin into this world, but it was Satan, the great deceiver himself who tricked Adam and Eve into sin. Adam is not the one you should be mad at, it is Satan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea you're right Yu.

The way I stated my post made the blame shift on to ancestors then pointing to Adam and Eve as I just noticed. I was trying to explain that there are consequences from sin and they could be anything. We are still punished by sin, because Adam screwed up, and bad things that happen to people, COULD be the result of the sin done before them.

Don't think that I'm not saying consequences are just from someone else, because most consequences are stumbles by us through the temptation of Satan. You can't fix the current consequences of course, but by repenting you can wipe the slate clean. A closer relationship with God will benfit(you will get back in return) and you will be able to have a great impact on those around you.


<font color="red">Ephesians 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery.</font>

For instance if a man or woman would get drunk often or take drugs it COULD cause serious defects to their baby in the future. These are sinful desires, and does not just apply to wine it applies to everything that polutes the body. Thats what I mean. I don't mean that Billy Ray killed Joe making you have the twitch in your eye (just an ex.)

You also don't put the blame on that person, because they are not perfect, everyone stumbles, satan is the one who tempted them the and the one to blame.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
so then if my great grandfather didnt believe

[/ QUOTE ]

He did believe. His problem is just like everyone elses. He didn't stick to the Word of God.

Adam saw God face to face

<font color="red"> 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
</font>

And God talked with him:

<font color="red">8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: </font>

It was not a question of believing. It was a question of following the Word of God:

<font color="blue"> 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
</font>

It was a matter of pride.

<font color="green"> And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
</font>

"I don't need God to tell me what is right and wrong, I'll decide for myself; I will be the god of my own universe."

"ye shall be as gods"

The exact same sin satan was guilty of.

<font color="green"> 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

</font>

[ QUOTE ]
and i would be punished for his sins?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you chose to be. Just like Adam, you had a choice. You are living in a world corrupted by sin, but you don't have to conform to it. That's your decision.

God is saying, "Here is my truth, my Word, Jesus, reject it or take it"

<font color="brown"> 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. </font>

The choice is yours. You are a descendent of Adam, but the choice is still yours.

[bigpoppadiesel]

so then could i be cursed such as by having dissabilities or is it more im cursed by having to face teh same temtations that he did? (u guys are my only source of biblical info so im kinda teaching myself the bible on the fly here...sorry if im a lil slow here)

[JRB]

[ QUOTE ]
bigpoppadiesel said:
so then could i be cursed such as by having dissabilities or is it more im cursed by having to face teh same temtations that he did? (u guys are my only source of biblical info so im kinda teaching myself the bible on the fly here...sorry if im a lil slow here)

[/ QUOTE ]

No probably not disabilities, maybe hardship. You face a bunch of temptations everyday and it may not be those that he faced.

<font color="red"> James 4:7-8: "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God, and he will come near to you."</font>

Here you see that you can resist temptation by asking for God's help.


You are also not cursed with anything you just need to ask for forgiveness. God is loving and he will forgive you no matter what happens. You just need to try your best to live up to his son's (Jesus') image.

<font color="red">Micah 7: 18-20
18.Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.
19.You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.
20.You will be true to Jacob,
and show mercy to Abraham,
as you pledged on oath to our fathers
in days long ago.</font>

[Fandango]

ok i was wrong. i am Christian by the way maybe just a little "off the path"

[jlong]

[ QUOTE ]
JRB said:
[ QUOTE ]
bananadude said:
If you believe that God makes innocent kids severely disabled simply because 'he' believes they can cope with it and lead normal lives

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to say this because I feel like it is a tough subject but I feel I need to...

Exodus 34 6 &amp; 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.&amp;#8221;

First off God doesn't make kids severely disabled, it is a result of our own sin and those before us. Sin is bad and it doesn't go unpunished.

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death"

So god isn't evil. He really cuts us some slack because he knows we can't be perfect. He forgives us, but he still punishes us and others in various ways.



[/ QUOTE ]

You got to be ****ting me. How can you be so simple minded.

So what you're saying is if my or my wifes ancestors did something bad, ugly or wrong. We are supposed to get punished for their acts.
According to me, if YOU did something wrong YOU should be punished not somebody else.

(I will get flamed for this)
If you look at the dictators of the world, they use the same tactics as God in terms of punishing. They not only punish the person that did the wrong doing, but they also punish the family. This only to make sure that nobody can have revenge on the dictator.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

[jlong]

I apologize for the verbal assult on JRB, it came out wrong.

Yu, you said that this isn't the case, but compare these texts, and tell me the difference.
[ QUOTE ]
Exodus 34 6 &amp; 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.&amp;#8221;"

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So what you're saying is if my or my wifes ancestors did something bad, ugly or wrong. We are supposed to get punished for their acts

[/ QUOTE ]

If the point is hidden, explain it for me. My mother language isn't english, so maybe an misunderstanding can be found from my side.


[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

According to me, if YOU did something wrong YOU should be punished not somebody else

[/ QUOTE ]

We still have a choice. We are saved through the blood of Christ. We can choose to accept Him, or we can choose to deny him. The choice is yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I don't understand. First it's told that God can punish you for sins three or four generations back. Then you're saved by the blood of Christ.

(Example)
My ancestors (great grandfather 4:th generation or grandfather 3:rd generation) sinned when they where alive.
I get punished for THEIR sins. Now I am supposed to be saved by the blood of Christ, this means I have to accept God. This is the same "person"(chose a different word if you have a better) that has made me suffer my ancestors sins. This last sentence is where the point is, you except a person that is punished, go to the same place for forgiveness.
(Example end.)

If someone hurts me, should I go back for more?

[Rewesh]

Ok, I don't care how offended any of you get after what I post as I see it as the greater good then just letting this topic be filled full of arguments....arguments on the net NEVER work. Never ever ever work.

http://www.speedis.org/images/349030.jpg

This picture is very cruel, but the point is what counts.

[Serendipity]

Do you really believe that those who are deaf and blind are really that bad off?

I mean, can anyone here tell a blind or deaf person that they are better off dead or not existing at all?

My brother is legally blind and he functions great! He has a child, a wife, a life, and a job. He's probably one of the most intelligent people I know, and the only thing he can't do is drive a car.

[PsychoJr]

[ QUOTE ]
Heen05 said:
I wasnt trying to be ignorant and naive you psycho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, you got something against psychotic people? I'm offended. LOL

[realjones]

[ QUOTE ]
Serendipity said:
Do you really believe that those who are deaf and blind are really that bad off?

I mean, can anyone here tell a blind or deaf person that they are better off dead or not existing at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

its not that they shouldn't live or cannot live full normal productive lives, its that compared to people without any disabilities they are worse off, and this is how people without disabilities view those with disabilities.

Ask any blind person if they'd like to see, any deaf person if they'd like to hear, or any handicapped person if they'd like to walk, and the answer from the vast majority of them will be an overwhelming yes, especially if they had that ability and then lost it.

[CheezitMan22]

[ QUOTE ]
Serendipity said:
Do you really believe that those who are deaf and blind are really that bad off?

I mean, can anyone here tell a blind or deaf person that they are better off dead or not existing at all?

My brother is legally blind and he functions great! He has a child, a wife, a life, and a job. He's probably one of the most intelligent people I know, and the only thing he can't do is drive a car.



[/ QUOTE ]

Again, i meant severely. like ones who canot see anything. i guess all they see is black, like our eyes being closed. /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[MaxC]

This subject has been pretty well covered in the thread, but I want to give a personal perspective. My brother is a quadroplegic. He does not complain about his condition, but has a hope that one day he will have a new body like Christ's because that is what God promises. If God promises it, it will happen. He understands that he has a "bad" body now because of sin in the world. That's Adam's fault, your fault, his fault and my fault. We all carry the guilt--UNLESS we accept Jesus Christ's payment for our sin.

My 9 year old son cannot yet walk and is just learning to talk--he has the vocabulary of a 3 year old. His mother and I know that far and away the most important thing for him is the most important thing for you or me-- that we put our faith in Jesus and become like Him. Our son is doing that. He has hugs and prayers and love for everyone. This comes from Christ in him. If he never advances physically or mentally, he is still in a far better position that the very strong, smart, rich, beautiful person who rejects Christ. This is Truth, not my truth, but God's Truth.

[bananadude]

To use your example - this is EXACTLY why people have faith. Because the alternative is what? To believe there is no hope, that people like your brother are born this way through nobody's fault but the fact that a few strands of his DNA got mixed up, that we have no-one but ourselves, friends and family to rely upon and no amount of prayer or faith will change that. To live like this would be unbearable for those whose believe in God etc. gets them through the day, which is why religion exists! But the fact of the matter is your brother is the way he is because of his DNA - if there were a way to manipulate this or 'fix' his condition (which there will be someday) what does that mean in regards to your beliefs? These cures will obviously not be held back exclusively for those who have faith that their believe in God etc. will cure them. And in regards to your son, how exactly is he in a better position for accepting christ than someone who has not? Are you assuming that someone who does not believe in Christ does not have the ability to be kind to his fellow man, share love and be the best human being he can possibly be? How exactly does this make him worse off than your brother?

[MaxC]

[ QUOTE ]
bananadude said:
To use your example - this is EXACTLY why people have faith. Because the alternative is what? To believe there is no hope, that people like your brother are born this way through nobody's fault but the fact that a few strands of his DNA got mixed up, that we have no-one but ourselves to rely upon and no amount of prayer or faith will change that. To live like this would be unbearable for those whose believe in God etc. gets them through the day, which is why religion exists! But the fact of the matter is your brother is the way he is because of his DNA - if there were a way to manipulate this or 'fix' his condition (which there will be someday) what does that mean in regards to your beliefs?

[/ QUOTE ]

You say faith = hope
No faith = no hope

You are right, and to make the jump to say that because of faith/hope people create religion is true in some cases. But it does not exclude the possibility that the Bible really is God's communication to us and what it says really is true. You must have faith to please God and be saved. For the one who MUST have empirical proof and evidence, faith comes very hard. The problem is that God says you MUST have it. What's my risk in trusting Christ? Nothing. What's your risk in denying Christ? Everything. Believe.

[MaxC]

[ QUOTE ]
bananadude said:
If you do choose to take the religous viewpoint on the world around us, then it seems far more sensible to see the good and bad things that happen in this world as a sign of the constant battle between God and the Devil - the bad and evil things we see as evidence of the Devil's victories, and the good things we witness as evidence of God's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Much evil originated with the devil and he is the cause of much of the evil in today's world and yes he is battling God. God, however is infinitely more powerful and chooses to let evil exist for a time. Shortly, God will finish the devil and sin's defeat.

[bananadude]

My risk in denying christ is nothing if i have faith and am happy in my life. You may argue that i don't know what i'm missing, but surely you are in no more a position to say that than any other religion is to say the same to you for not seeing things from their point of view. After all, wars have been started for this very reason! Faith does equal hope, i am not denying that, but no faith does not necessarily equal no hope, and although it may come harder i would refute that is any the less obtainable. You must realise it is as difficult for some people to believe in God etc. as it is easy for you to do so.

[MaxC]

I do know that it is very difficult for some people to believe in God. Jesus himself said it is easier camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. His disciples in amazement asked "who then can be saved?". Jesus told them "what is impossible for man is possible for God." It is possible for you to reject your view of religion and to put your faith in Jesus Christ. I don't think it's likely, but I know it is possible. That is why I am praying for you--to put your faith in Christ. I don't know you but I do know...KNOW (faith) that you will have a great future after death and bring glory to God if you believe, BUT if you do not believe you will be miserable for eternity after you die. I did not make this up--neither did anyone else--it is God's Truth.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
My risk in denying christ is nothing

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Perhaps you meant that the other way around. Because the risk in denying the Lord, is eternal ****ation!

Revelation 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Isaiah 66: 22-24
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Isaiah 14:4-21
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

2 Corinthians 4:1-4
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[ricklmf]

My brother was born with Hydroencephalus. He is 41 years old and has an IQ of 38 with a mental age of 6 years 5 months. He will never change. He has multiple physical problems and I am his care giver. He lives with me and is a great blessing. Many are not so fortunate. THe bible tells me that God created a perfect world. Adam and Eve were created in His image. Then too would be Cain and Able. Able was killed, Cain cursed. THen Adam and Eve had a third son, Seth. Seth it says, was made in the image of Adam. A fallen sinful person as compared to the image of God. Since that time All births do not spring from the perfect image of GOd but from fallen Adam. They are not born into the perfect world GOd created either. But we know that GOd is just and good and these disabled ones will be whole in heaven. I believe especially those like my brother that do not have the ability to make a true believers decision will be under grace as a child would. When I see him in heaven he will be tall and strong and speak clearly and intelligently. I look forward to that day.

[psaturn]

Rick...that is so beautiful what you are doing !

In one way or other, I think many people are handicapped. Some are less obvious than others. Some can be emotional, some can be spiritual, some can be physical.

I do have physical handicap: I have had hearing deficiency since I was a child. I am classified as severe hearing loss. I do wear digital hearing aid. With the help of G-d, of many people, I was able to overcome that and learn four languages without hearing aid for the first 16 yrs of my life (my family could not afford hearing aid, as I was in a single mother home, now that is another disability !!!).

Finally with hearing aid, and years of speech therapy, I can function pretty well in society. I went to college and even went to UC Berkeley and now I am working in the best clinic in the area I am in. I own a home with a yard and pool, I own a new midsized car (a Saturn!), I have a doggie named Max and is a [*%#*%*#] Tzu whom I love very much, and I am involved in both the church and the synagogue. One thing that will complete this will be a good woman that we will walk together to accomplish great things !!!

They physical handicap was pretty major but the worst part was the emotional handicap. Coming from a single parent house I lacked self confidence and emotional stability. The hearing disability affected the self confidence and also the self worth. People thought I was a mental retard when I was a kid because I would not respond to their questions (I could not hear !!!) and that kept the cycle of being looked down, having low expectations for yourself and etc. Thank G-d for the emotional and internal healing process that He started on the cross and is doing every day in my life.

[Breaktrack]

God creates everything for a purpose, including the handicapped, just like he created evil for a purpose.

[psaturn]

I wonder why was the first part of the kind of dog I have was erased. It is called ****zu....like German Shepherd, Lhasa Apso, chihuaha...