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Sniper99

07-08-2003, 03:46 AM

This is for the Christian men... sorry if this question is odd, but it came up on another forum and I'm genuinely interested:

What are your thoughts on masturbation??

Sniper99

07-08-2003, 03:47 AM

...

cheche_D

07-08-2003, 04:31 AM

My roomate is a hard core christian and is studying to be a pastor. He says that masturbation is good for you and that he even rubs one out every once in a while. He claims to be "cleaning it" though... yea right

Venom

07-08-2003, 04:34 AM

It's a sin. Here are some old quotes:

[ QUOTE ]

Psalms 101: 1 - 3

1 I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing. 2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart. 3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

Here we see David refused to compromise his faith one inch. He refused to even contemplate on anything sinful. Why though?

James 1:13-18
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin is first conceived, than when brought forth brings death. The key is don't even think about it.

So here is a easy way to tell whether to ponder or do something or rather to avoid it:

Philippians 4:1-9
. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

So keep a good mindset and contemplate on virtues things.

1 John 2:12-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

If you are fulfilling the lusts of your flesh than avoid it (Satan also tempted Adam and eve in the garden, and Jesus in the desert with these same 3 deceptions. The former fell for them, while Christ smote them down with the sword of the spirit).

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like my wife is always getting mad at me for stupid things (looking at other women). I can't help but think is this God's way of telling me to stop staring at other women?

Christ already did tell you to stop this:

Matthew 5:27-32
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 6:19-24
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Jesus clearly states to avoid the lusts of your eyes. It is very important to follow these instructions.

John also adds to this.

1 John 2:12-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

So clearly in the scriptures you want to avoid these 3 lusts. So now that we know that is wrong, the question is how do you avoid this lust?

1 Corinthians 10:6-14
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

There is always a way to escape when you are being tempted. Look for this!

For example, if right now you are being tempted with something on the Internet. If you can handle it, than just exit out of the browser, open a new one and get back to work. But if you know you cant, than exit out, turn of your computer, and go to work on something else. Or better yet go pray.

This goes for all temptations, always use your head, think not with your flesh but with the spirit.

So look out for these lusts and when you are tempted, seek a way out.

[ QUOTE ]
member:
But I am a christian too and if I think in any way this is wrong I will stop, so im kinna confused about the whole thing. I dont know what to think really. Man teenage years are confusing. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Romans 14:22-23
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is ****ed if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

By your post above, its quite evident you cannot smoke pot in faith, and anything not done in faith is a sin. Also:

[ QUOTE ]
member said:Well I just dont know. I mean I know what I am doing is illegal but well I like it so I am going to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Romans 8:12-16
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

If you are doing something just to please the lusts of your flesh that is sin. Walk after the spirit, and you don't have to worry, because there is no law against the spirit of life!

Here are some check marks before you do something your not sure about:

1. Can I do this in 100% faith towards God?
2. Am I pleasing my flesh, and fulfilling the lusts thereof willingly? Or am I walking with the spirit?

And keep your chin up buddy, we all just want to help.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is plenty more. I'll add later.

oes

07-08-2003, 04:57 AM

Go Venom. Let Him speak thru you and the Word. Amen Bro

jlong

07-08-2003, 05:00 AM

If it makes you feel better, feel relaxed or whatever reason. It's up to you not anybody else to decide.

Venom

07-08-2003, 05:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Go Venom. Let Him speak thru you and the Word.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok buddy, I'll let the word speak. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Here are several verses, on the importance of controlling your thoughts, and lusts. Vain, evil thoughts are an abomination to the Lord, you need to serve Christ with all your heart, mind , and soul.:

Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

Psalms 119:113-113
113 SAMECH. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

Proverbs 15:26-26
26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1 Peter 5:1-4
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

1 Peter 1:13-23
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Romans 8:1-9
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 12:1-21
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 4:17-32
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Philippians 3:17-21
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And finally, bring all thoughts into Christ's obedience:

2 Corinthians 10:1-6
1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you: 2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

PsychoJr

07-08-2003, 10:26 AM

Don't want to start a long debate here, but frankly Venom, I think every one of the verses you quote is completely irrelevant to the issue. There are a lot of things good that God gave us, of which all of them can be abused. Alcohol, sex, fatty foods... My walk is about a personal relationship, not a series of prohibitions. Asking a teenager not to beat the monkey is like telling him not to breathe -- it can't be done. Every survey that's been done says that 98% of the guys do it and the rest are lying. Is it productive to flat out call it a sin??? Can it be -- yes. But the act itself isn't. All you are doing is creating guilt and spiritual torment when there are more important issues.

sta63bmx

07-08-2003, 11:46 AM

/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Edited by OldSchool

GetPsycho

07-08-2003, 11:55 AM

why cant this post apply to christian women ? we are all humans with same needs, feelings, desires, etc...

MaNofSteeL

07-08-2003, 12:06 PM

then y god ddnt just give us this when we get married..
if its a sin then y give it to us when HE KNOWS that we'll do it..i dun get that..

BigJawn

07-08-2003, 12:33 PM

There are alot of worse things you can be doing then wackin off people come on, If thats the worst thing you do in your entire life then you are a saint.

PsychoJr

07-08-2003, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BigJawn said:
There are alot of worse things you can be doing then wackin off people come on, If thats the worst thing you do in your entire life then you are a saint.

[/ QUOTE ]

ha ha...

It would be better that you wack off 40 times a day and influence people to Christ rather than be perfect and not.

07-08-2003, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
celyea said:
I think every one of the verses you quote is completely irrelevant to the issue. There are a lot of things good that God gave us, of which all of them can be abused. Alcohol, sex, fatty foods... My walk is about a personal relationship, not a series of prohibitions. Asking a teenager not to beat the monkey is like telling him not to breathe -- it can't be done. Every survey that's been done says that 98% of the guys do it and the rest are lying. Is it productive to flat out call it a sin??? Can it be -- yes. But the act itself isn't. All you are doing is creating guilt and spiritual torment when there are more important issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

at last some sensible approaches to these issues. I agree with yourself and sta63bmx whole heartedley...fine answers. Little of the scripture above appeared to me to be relevent either and certainly did not answer the question at HAND....(pun intended)

Sniper99

07-08-2003, 02:26 PM

Without reading every post, let me briefly say why I feel masturbation is not a sin, at least not inherently:

1) It is nowhere specifically mentioned in the bible. Some may argue we need to infer that it is a sin, but why is this the case? God has SPECIFICALLY told us to avoid all kinds of sins. Masturbation is very pervasive (94-98% of men do it) and I'm certain it was every bit as pervasive in ancient times. If something this pervasive is inherently sinful, surely it would have been specifically mentioned by God's word.

2) Some may argue it is not masturbation that is the sin per-se, rather the lust that accompanies it. However, I firmly believe it is possible to masturbate without having fantasies about that hot girl down the street /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif. You have to concentrate on it, but it is possible. It may not work every time, no one is perfect, but it is possible.

3) Physiologically, it is healthy.

4) For me personally, masturbation is an invaluable tool to keep myself relatively lust-free and away from sexual sin. If I didn't do it, lust would unfortunately become a much larger part of my life.

Now, this is not to say "everyone should masturbate." This is not the case. For some people it IS a stumbling block and is something they prefer to avoid - that is fine - I simply do not think it is inherently sinful.

bennyhanna1

07-08-2003, 02:36 PM

I have a really good book that includes a section on this.. i don't have time to type it right now, but i will later...!

MansonOzz

07-08-2003, 02:59 PM

/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edited by OldSchool

Venom

07-08-2003, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't want to start a long debate here, but frankly Venom, I think every one of the verses you quote is completely irrelevant to the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is it irrelevant? This entire subject is based on the mind, and how you think. Period. That is extremely relevant.

If you do not think those thoughts, this conversation would never be brought up. The only way to do this is by thinking correct? How is the mind irrelevant than? The question is, does the bible prohibit such thoughts, and does it tell us what to contemplate on. I believe I showed it does, it is an act of lusts period.

Finally, I really have zero pity for any one on here that says its to difficult not to sin. Just like I don't have pity for some one who is a fat lazy slob and cant stay out of the cookie jar. We all have our own lusts, deal with them. This is certainly not impossible, that is ludicrous. I am supposed to feel sorry for people, who cant handle there own lusts, when there are millions dying in the world? Sorry, that does not make sense. It is quite possible, and not difficult, it is if you continually think carnally, and contemplate on this. I see nothing productive out of thinking carnally.

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of things good that God gave us, of which all of them can be abused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he did, but he also gives commandments. And contemplating on lusts, and your flesh is a sin.

[ QUOTE ]
All you are doing is creating guilt and spiritual torment when there are more important issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh there are? Like salvation correct? Well concerning salvation, the bible is very clear, if you are willfully sinning, you will not be saved.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Galatians 5:15-21
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7-8
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

If this is in fact a sin, and Christians are willfully sinning against God repetitively than it is an extremely important issue. Because if you sin willfully you will reap corruption.

Ezekiel 3:16-21
16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

It is the believer's responsibility to tell other believers to stop sinning. You and I will be held accountable for this.

So if this is a sin, than it is an extremely important subject.

If it is not a sin, than show me how you can do this, without thinking on thoughts which we are told not to contemplate on, and give some scriptural backing for your reasoning.

KrYptic.x

07-08-2003, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MaNofSteeL said:
then y god ddnt just give us this when we get married..
if its a sin then y give it to us when HE KNOWS that we'll do it..i dun get that..

[/ QUOTE ]

the same reason he gives you a knife, or a gun. He knows it can be used wrong and cause harm, but yet that is the free will he gives us.

It's the same thing with sex. It is a gift from God. He knows that it is/can be abused, yet it's free will.

Sin is sin. There are no variying degrees of it. A man could live a perfect life, at the very end have an impure thought, and in Gods eyes, he is as guilty someone who has sinned their entire life.

Ok sorry, thats a bit off topic, my thoughs on masturbation comming soon...

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My roomate is a hard core christian and is studying to be a pastor. He says that masturbation is good for you and that he even rubs one out every once in a while. He claims to be "cleaning it" though... yea right

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe he told you that. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif First that is disgusting talk which he should know to to endorse. Moreover, that is perverted. Masterubating is simply an outlet for fornication of the mind. Complety contradictory to the commandment we have to be sober minded and pure in thought.

I think it is exceeding strange that people blow off sexual sin like it is nothing serious to concern ourselves with. It is the one sin that we commit against ourselves!

Here is another post:

[ QUOTE ]
member: so i knwo that masturbation is wrong because it is connected to lust
even though i have like lustful thoujghts here and than..i stay away from masturbation.

but since ive stopped ive been having sexual dreams..= wet dreams
like a lot of them too..
like i feel guilty too
so i masturbated so i dont get a sexual dream...like i did it witha clear conscience too..without lustful thoughts..just wanting to get it out of the system..
is that what i should do?
i feel so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
like i did it witha clear conscience

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i feel so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't sound like you have a clear conscience.

Follow this logic,

If you steal without any greedy motive, does that cease to make stealing a sin?

First stealing without any greedy intention is impossible.

Yet this is the logic used with masturbation. That it is ok to masturbate, so long as you do not lust. And that one actually can masturbate with no lust in their heart. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
so i masturbated so i dont get a sexual dream...like i did it witha clear conscience too..without lustful thoughts..

[/ QUOTE ]

Moreover, to say one masturbates to not lust, yet does not lust when they masturbate makes absolutely no sense. Its circular reasoning and double talk.

Its ok to admit you have a downfall brother, but do not allow your flesh to "talk" you into justifying sin.

Fornication is any form of sex that is made without a covenant made between one man and one woman before God and the church.

Pre-marital sex, homosexuality, masturbation, pornography, and such like things are all types of fornication.

Adultery is sexual relations outside of the legal convenant between one man and one woman before God and the church.

The bible is very clear on these issues:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


The fact is, masturbation occurs from a fornicating thought life.

 Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 

It is a way to fulfill the fleshly desire for sex outside of a covenant relationship. Nothing more.

Masturbating in the attempt to control lust is a sin:

Why? Two reasons,

1. It is unbiblical. It is attempting to overcome the flesh with the flesh. Using a carnal "tool" to overcome sin. That within itself is a sin.

3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;



 5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 

 3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God 

 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 

2. It is nothing more than a outlet for a mentality of fornication.

 13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is fullgrown, gives birth to death.


Fornicating lust fuels masturbation. Therefore it is a sin. Whether one lusts when they masturbate or not, really has nothing to do with the fact that lust is what drove the person to perform the act.

If one did not have a lust issue, they would not masturbate, as there is no biological reason to do so.

It is not a natural occuring function, like say going to the bathroom, or nocturnal emissions.

Getting to your question, you will dream about the things you have seen. If you allow your eyes to fulfill their lust for fornication, those images will be rehashed in your dreams.

 Job 31:1
I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 

It is ok to notice a girl is cute. And it is ok to be tempted in this area. We can not escape our flesh, but we can control it by walking in the Spirit.

[ QUOTE ]
i feel so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two more things:

1. God still loves you, and do not allow the enemy to tell you otherwise.

7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ 

Why does God love you and forgive you? Because as verse 9 states, its His pleasure to do so. Its what He desires to do. He naturally expresses mercy to those that seek His mercy.

However, do not use this an excuse to take advantage of God's Grace. In other words, do not masturbate with the mentaility of "Oh well I'm going to do it, God will still forgive me!"

22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it–he will be blessed in what he does.


He will forgive you, but the healing that comes from liberation from fornication can not occur until the stronghold of this sin is removed from you life.

Don't condemn yourself or allow the enemy to rob your joy.

 Psalm 142:3
When my spirit grows faint within me, it is you who know my way. 

God does not condemn, He convicts. Condemnation comes from satan. Chastisment comes from God and He will never be the one to make you feel like a failure. God wants you to succeed. So much so He sent His Son to die to guarntee your success! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

You have the victory, just persist in prayer and study.

18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. 

Also fast, some sins can only be overcome through fasting.

 25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

26And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.



I feel sexual addictions is one of these sin. It is a major fuel for our flesh, and the temptation is everywhere in our society.

But God can deliver anyone:

 2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, 

2. This can be accomplished by praying for God's mercy daily and for God to help you in this area. Admit your weakness. It is not a sin to be tempted. In fact we are all going to be tempted until the day we die.

 7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you doubleminded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.


[ QUOTE ]
Without reading every post, let me briefly say why I feel masturbation is not a sin, at least not inherently:

1) It is nowhere specifically mentioned in the bible. Some may argue we need to infer that it is a sin, but why is this the case? God has SPECIFICALLY told us to avoid all kinds of sins. Masturbation is very pervasive (94-98% of men do it) and I'm certain it was every bit as pervasive in ancient times. If something this pervasive is inherently sinful, surely it would have been specifically mentioned by God's word.

2) Some may argue it is not masturbation that is the sin per-se, rather the lust that accompanies it. However, I firmly believe it is possible to masturbate without having fantasies about that hot girl down the street . You have to concentrate on it, but it is possible. It may not work every time, no one is perfect, but it is possible.

3) Physiologically, it is healthy.

4) For me personally, masturbation is an invaluable tool to keep myself relatively lust-free and away from sexual sin. If I didn't do it, lust would unfortunately become a much larger part of my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also find it odd that a biblical question is asked, but no one but Venom provided bible verses! All we have here is man's opinion. That is not God's opinion. The bible is God's opinion. So why "I feel it's not a sin and here's why" has no relevance to the question at hand.

Paul spends a large portion of his writings dealing with this very issue and people like to pretend it's not there.

Let's look at a small portion of the biblical history of lust.

Exodus 20:14

 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.


Under Mosaic Law all that was forbidden was adultery. You could burn with passion until sweat flowed from every pore, so long as you did not commit the act.

Even though it wasn't in Mosaic Law Job knew the full effects fulfilling your lust had.

 1 I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?


Notice how God described Job to satans face!

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?



Here Jesus raised the bar for all...

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:(Exodus 20:14)

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


It is clear. Lust outside of marriage is adultery.

"But that's too hard, I'm a teenager"

No it's not. First let's consider what Jesus said:

 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 

Jesus never lusted. And He gave us the power, to "go and sin no more".

Furthermore, lust is the fuel behind masturbation 200% everytime.

God has a lot to say about lust.

 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in a passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God.
-I Thessalonians 4:3-5 

Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, not a vessel of immoratlity.

 God again makes it very clear in Ephesians 5:3:

"But among you there must not even be a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity...because these are improper for God's holy people." 

Jesus said in Luke 6:46, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" And in John 14:15, Jesus said it again, "If you love me, you will obey what I command."


This kind of jest talking about God's plan for sex is mocking God.

 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


[ QUOTE ]
1) It is nowhere specifically mentioned in the bible. Some may argue we need to infer that it is a sin, but why is this the case? God has SPECIFICALLY told us to avoid all kinds of sins. Masturbation is very pervasive (94-98% of men do it) and I'm certain it was every bit as pervasive in ancient times. If something this pervasive is inherently sinful, surely it would have been specifically mentioned by God's word.

[/ QUOTE ]

First back up those stats with a scientific survey, furthermore the rest is speculation.

The typical defenese that people give is, "the bible never says you can't masterbate! So it must be ok!"

That is terrible logic. If that is the case,

"It never says you can't strap a bomb on yourself and blow up innocent people."

It says, do not murder. That sums it all up, no matter what way you murder.

It says, do not lust, outside of marriage. That sums it up no matter how you fulfill it.

So how does one go about beating lust?

I will never say you could. It takes God's strength, which we have assurance we have if we humbely seek it,

 "No temptation has seized (me) except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let (me) be tempted beyond what I can bear. But when (I am) tempted, he will also provide a way out so that (I) can stand up under it." 

For young men, the trick is to do like Job and make a covenant with your eyes! Not to look upon any woman with lust.

To start this we have to go about what I call, "starving the Sumo". We know from body building that when we see a sumo wrestler those guys are non-stop eating to put on that kind of weight. Take away the food and they'll reduce in size.

It's the same concept with lust. Take away the food and we can starve the lust. The truth is we find it so hard to stop lusting because we constantly feed our minds with it.

We live in a society where nudity is glorified and fornication is the cool thing to do.

I will be glad to continue in this post and discuss strategies for controlling your lust.

But understand that lust in itself is not evil.

God created sexual desire for marriage. Desire for your wife is a beautiful thing. God also put no restrictions on what can go on in the bedroom between a husband and wife. Sex is not a bad word.

It's a sin when it's taken out of context with God's purpose for it.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Some may argue it is not masturbation that is the sin per-se, rather the lust that accompanies it. However, I firmly believe it is possible to masturbate without having fantasies about that hot girl down the street . You have to concentrate on it, but it is possible. It may not work every time, no one is perfect, but it is possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes zero sense. The bible never regards self-gratification as means to defeat lust. That is completly unscriptural. The bible gives many answers regarding defeating the traps and temptations of satan. You say masturbation is not directly mentioned so it is not a sin, however you then turn around and say that masturbation is a means of defeating lust. That is much more illogical than what we have presented that masturbation is an outlet for lustful thoughts. Christ never once mentioned this as a tool. To suggest this is somehow biblical is ludicrious.

[ QUOTE ]
3) Physiologically, it is healthy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Prove it. There is no science to back this up. Perhaps the babblings of some Fruedian nutcase, but no scientific evidence. Do not make such statments without evidence.

[ QUOTE ]
For me personally, masturbation is an invaluable tool to keep myself relatively lust-free and away from sexual sin. If I didn't do it, lust would unfortunately become a much larger part of my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

By your own admission you are using a means other than the commandments of the word to dispense sin from your life. That is sin within itself. Moreover, you have also admitted that lust still has you in bondage, or the potetnial for it to become any part of your life would not be there.

I will be glad to help anyone or continue with strategies in this post. But if God is just going to be mocked and if you are going to try to find ways to justify your lust then I will be done with the topic.

In the mean time don't go with what your own justifications, in all things seek him for the truth.

If satan sees you compromising the Word you are sheathing your sword and opening yourself for the attack.

If this topic was not bothering you guys it would not be brought up so much. Deep down the Holy Spirit has told you to stop, but you want to justify sin. Sorry, you will never find God's Word justifiying sin!

"The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God..." (Psalm 10:4). "Pride goes before destruction..." (Proverbs 16:18). "When pride comes, then comes shame; But with the humble is wisdom" (Proverbs 11:2).

Venom

07-08-2003, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It's the same concept with lust. Take away the food and we can starve the lust. The truth is we find it so hard to stop lusting because we constantly feed our minds with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, people surround themselves with junk constantly and willfully. If you constantly contemplate on carnal things, yeah its going to be hard, and it will only get harder, because you will develop a more carnal mind.

Romans 12:1-2
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The Lord will literally shape your carnality, into a spiritual mind. Once you stop sinning, than you can move on to weightier matters.

1 Corinthians 3:1-4
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Sinning, and justifying sin, is milk. It is the very basics of the bible. But there are much more important matters and it's a shame to let sin hold you back.

2 Timothy 2:22
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Sniper99

07-08-2003, 04:34 PM

Wait a minute here - you are saying masturbation feeds lust. You can say alcahol feeds alcaholism, so one should never drink. The fact is, while both of these facts CAN be true they are NOT necessarilly true. It is possible to drink responsibly (I do not because alcaholism runs in my family, but it is possible), likewise it is possible to masturbate responsibly.

Now for some people masturbation is a slipperly slope, much like for some people alcahol leads to other drugs. If this is you then by all means, avoid masturbation, and I will hapilly support anyone who has this conviction. But, you will not convince me that it is in and of itself a sin.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, people surround themselves with junk constantly and willfully.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is another reason why the body building lifestyle is so comparable to the spiritual life.

When you first started eating like a body builder it was not easy. You craved junk food! How did you beat it? You stopped feeding the machine. Don't surround yourself with junk and you won't devulge in it.

Now look at your body! You are bigger, leaner, and disciplined! This is the same sataisfaction you get spiritually when you can control what goes in your mind.

"Cheat days", are comparable to your wife. You look forward to the cheat day because you know it is all you are going to get!

Same with your wife. If you don't look lustfully at any other women your desire for your wife will sky rocket, and your sex life will be 10000x better!

For the unmarried, sorry you are on a cut! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif But God is now able to bless you with a Godly wife. How is he supposed to bless you if you sin in the very area he wants to bless you in?

But this is just an analogy. The main way to beat lust is not to surround yourself with it and feed the mind with it.

Venom

07-08-2003, 04:41 PM

You're using a bad comparison.

1 Corinthians 6:12-20
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Eating meat is not a sin, but being a glutton is. Fornication is a sin, no matter how little, or much of it you do. You're using a bad comparison. You cannot moderator murder correctly, just don't do it. Same thing with this.

Were telling you the thoughts you're thinking are sin, you should never contemplate on them willfully. It's not something that you need to do sometimes, or a lot of times, its something you should not do at all. There is never an acceptable time, or amount to sin.

KrYptic.x

07-08-2003, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Venom said:
Were telling you the thoughts you're thinking are sin, you should never contemplate on them willfully. It's not something that you need to do sometimes, or a lot of times, its something you should not do at all. There is never an acceptable time, or amount to sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please forgive my igrnoarnce, just trying to learn more but.

So is the thoughts that 'the deed' invokes the sin? Or is it the actual act. I mean, a man (or woman) could very well be thinking of their spouse.

MikeM

07-08-2003, 04:55 PM

What difference does it make really?? If you sin, you sin. No big deal. Just ask for forgiveness and its done, your forgiven and the slate is wiped clean until you sin again. Repeat.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you are saying masturbation feeds lust.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other way around. Lust fuels masturbation the same way it fuels fornication, adultery, and all other sexual sins.

[ QUOTE ]
It is possible to drink responsibly (I do not because alcaholism runs in my family, but it is possible), likewise it is possible to masturbate responsibly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you are just grabbing for the air. You already admitted you yourself can not "masturbate responsibly" by your own definition. Then you say, "it is possible". Prove that statement.

Also, you just said earlier that sometimes (I think that phrase is being conservative) you do lust when you masturbate. So now alcholism runs in your family so you chose to not drink at all to avoid the trap of alcoholism. Would it not then make just as much sense to not masturbate at all to avoid lusting in your mind when you do it? In the same way you avoid all alcohol to prevent alcoholism, avoide all outlets for lust in your life. Which you have already admitted masturbation is one of them. Avoid any situations in which you might fall.

Also from a biblical perspective, this is a false analogy, comparing apples to oranges, how can you fulfill lust partially? You either are fulfilling or you are not.

Moreover you have still failed to explain what the purpose behind masturbation is. You have given no reasonable biblical answer, and certainly no scientific facts to back up the statements.

You then say you masturbate to not lust, yet you do not lust when you masturbate. I'm not following that logic flow at all.

We are not talking about noticing a girl is good looking. We are talking about lusting over her. That is something we let our heart fulfill. And it's an empty fulfillment.

We are talking about letting the act proceed into sin, ie lusting in our heart the desire to have sex.

You say that by masturbating you can curve the drive to lust in your heart. I say that is unbiblical, and that you will find no way to substantiate your method anywhere in the bible. I believe the bible gives us the answers to defeating sexual lust, none of which include your method.

You can "lust" responsibly. In marriage. Only in a covenant relationship between one man and one woman is sex legal in God's eyes. And that is all you will ever find in the bible. This idea of masturbating to curve lust is totally unbiblical.

Lust outside of marriage is a sin. Stop setting up false analogies please.

 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.



Let's analyze your critique.

[ QUOTE ]
However, I firmly believe it is possible to masturbate without having fantasies about that hot girl down the street . You have to concentrate on it, but it is possible. It may not work every time, no one is perfect, but it is possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even by your standards, then why even take the chance? Why set yourself up to potentially fall?

You are saying setting yourself up to fail is Godly? And this is the way to beat lust?

This "method" is getting even more unbiblical every time you present it.

Moreover you still have provided no verses.

But I will,

 2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 

He knows how and has shown us how to conquer sexual lust, howbeit masturbation is never mentioned as a method. The only weapon we have is the sword of the spirit. Our weapons are not carnal. Masturbating is carnal "tool", therefore biblically it will not curve lust.

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


Nothing you are going through is so tough, that the sword of the spirit can't destory it. To use a carnal tool to fight a spiritual battle is foolishness.

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: 

God would never have the Holy Spirit use this as a tool to curve lust. As you said it is setting you up for temptation, which God does not do. He delivers us from temptation. He does not lead us into it!

Who is the tempter?

Matthew 4
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 

The devil, and Jesus uses the word to smite Him, not carnal weapons,

 Matthew 4
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 

That is how he beat satan, with the Word of God. By your logic he could have taken the stones and thrown them at satan to beat him. That sounds rediculous right? Why? Rocks are physical! The devil is a spirit. You are using the same logic, instead of Christ using the word to defeat satan, use the devices he is tempting him with?

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 

Same with masturbation, you're telling us that you can use a carnal weapon to fight a spiritual battle.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: 

And I guarntee the desire to masterbate arose from lust in the first place, and you are not masturbating without lusting.

To say you masturbate without lusting is like saying you pump iron without using weights.

1. Both are illogical.
2. What would be the point in doing either?

Your logic makes no sense, from common sense perspective, and even less on a biblical level.

Masturbation is not going to curve lust. It is simply going to allow satan to create a stronghold in your mind. Furthermore, In some manner you are submitting to your minds desire for sex outside of marriage. Bottom line.

[ QUOTE ]
For me personally, masturbation is an invaluable tool to keep myself relatively lust-free and away from sexual sin. If I didn't do it, lust would unfortunately become a much larger part of my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are in a trap. If you are fulfilling lust you are in the trap of lust. You are living in lust masturbating. It already is a large part of your life.

KrYptic.x

07-08-2003, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MikeM said:
What difference does it make really?? If you sin, you sin. No big deal. Just ask for forgiveness and its done, your forgiven and the slate is wiped clean until you sin again. Repeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus death on the cross does not give us a free ticket to sin.

MansonOzz

07-08-2003, 05:11 PM

Just wanna lighten the mood a bit /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Venom said:
I really have zero pity for any one on here that says its to hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about what we're talking about here /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

GetPsycho

07-08-2003, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MansonOzz said:
Just wanna lighten the mood a bit /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Venom said:
I really have zero pity for any one on here that says its to hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about what we're talking about here /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

i was waiting for someone to point that out. i can finally stop biting my tongue LOL

MikeM

07-08-2003, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
KrYptic said:
[ QUOTE ]
MikeM said:
What difference does it make really?? If you sin, you sin. No big deal. Just ask for forgiveness and its done, your forgiven and the slate is wiped clean until you sin again. Repeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus death on the cross does not give us a free ticket to sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't, all I was trying to say was no matter how hard you try you are going to sin. You try to show me someone who has never sinned and I guarantee they have at some point in there life. It is impossible not to. If God didn't forgive, I pretty sure Heaven would be an empty place and pretty boring. All I am saying is don't sweat it if you commit some sins. God forgives all. Even murderers and rapists. Scumbags most of us could not or would not forgive if they did something to us or our families, God forgives. Why stress yourself worrying about sinning??

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 05:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Please forgive my igrnoarnce, just trying to learn more but.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not ignorant bro. You are just trying to honestly learn!

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, a man (or woman) could very well be thinking of their spouse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Desire inside of marriage is never a sin. It is God's gift to a man and wife.

 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but *****mongers and adulterers God will judge.


The deed itself is always fueled by lust. You can not masterbate without lust involved at some stage or level.

Desire inside of marriage with your spouse is not a sin. When you are masterbating in marriage you are desiring your spouse. When you are masterbating outside of marriage you are lusting in adultery.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why stress yourself worrying about sinning??

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I am not stressing. Just striving for perfection to be like-Christ, ie. A Christian.

The rewards of that are obvious.

2. We are to be disciples.

How much do you really want that is the real question.

A disciple of Christ is one who (1) believes his doctrine, (2) rests on his sacrifice, (3) imbibes his spirit, and (4) imitates his example (Matt. 10:24;Luke 14:26, 27, 33; John 6:69).

I am not settleing for second best in my spiritual life or my body building life. How bad do you want to be buff? I could not stress and slack in my diet, rest, or training, even a little, and my body will reflect that.

Same with your spiritual body. I could slack and my spiritual body will reflect that.

Also Romans 6 answers this question. Because we live by Grace is that a license to sin? NO!

 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin– 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.



1. Verse 14 states if you allow yourself to justify sin, you are operating under the law, not grace.

2. The arguement Paul was addressing was, "if when sin abounds grace abounds even more, should we not then sin more to recieve more grace?" Paul shows that this is foolish thinking.

In Proverbs we read about a harlot that was bent on committing adultery and already had a sacrifice ready before she committed the sin:

 5That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.

6For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,

7And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,

8Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,

9In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:

10And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.

11(She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:

12Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)

13So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,

14I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.

15Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.

16I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.

17I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.

18Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.

19For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:

20He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.

21With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.

22He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;

23Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.

24Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.

25Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.

26For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.

27Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.


Notice verse 26 and 27, God does not favor this attitude of "I can sin then just ask for forgiveness later".

It leads to bondage.

Look at this picture:

http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/multimedia/gallery/Sun_Earth.jpg

The sun is a million times larger than the earth...we could literally "fit" a million earths in the sun...

What kind of being can create that!

Not one I want to take lightly, or play around messing with His commands.

 7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.


Reverance God, don't toy around with Grace.

God made it very clear, the sex act is for one man and one woman (two people) who have made a covenant before God and the church.

That eliminates all other numbers, inlcluding 3 or more (orgies), and even the number 1, masturbation.

2, not 3 not four, not one...2.

alanlws16

07-08-2003, 05:34 PM

Ok not readying every post because im too tired after my workout right now too really worry about it, heres my opinion,

Im 16 years old, and the first time I did it a year or two ago I had no idea what I was even doing. But thats beside the point, every time I go without it for 3 or 4 days I have wet dreams, witch is LUST! So wanting not to lust I perform the act without thinking about ANYTHING every 2 days. Is that a SIN??

Venom

07-08-2003, 05:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

i was waiting for someone to point that out. i can finally stop biting my tongue LOL

[/ QUOTE ]
/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif I was about to edit that lol. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't, all I was trying to say was no matter how hard you try you are going to sin. You try to show me someone who has never sinned and I guarantee they have at some point in there life. It is impossible not to. If God didn't forgive, I pretty sure Heaven would be an empty place and pretty boring. All I am saying is don't sweat it if you commit some sins. God forgives all. Even murderers and rapists. Scumbags most of us could not or would not forgive if they did something to us or our families, God forgives. Why stress yourself worrying about sinning??

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey mike. You're right, we are all sinners. But its important that we continually strive not to sin. And it is not a stressful thing, It is very stressful to live in sin. But living in the light, and coming boldly to the thrown of grace is very stress relieving. As Christians we need to continually seek to be like Christ. That's the goal. Refer to scriptures above on this. And here is another:

Romans 6:1-23
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

KrYptic.x

07-08-2003, 05:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MikeM said:
[ QUOTE ]
KrYptic said:
[ QUOTE ]
MikeM said:
What difference does it make really?? If you sin, you sin. No big deal. Just ask for forgiveness and its done, your forgiven and the slate is wiped clean until you sin again. Repeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus death on the cross does not give us a free ticket to sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it doesn't, all I was trying to say was no matter how hard you try you are going to sin. You try to show me someone who has never sinned and I guarantee they have at some point in there life. It is impossible not to. If God didn't forgive, I pretty sure Heaven would be an empty place and pretty boring. All I am saying is don't sweat it if you commit some sins. God forgives all. Even murderers and rapists. Scumbags most of us could not or would not forgive if they did something to us or our families, God forgives. Why stress yourself worrying about sinning??

[/ QUOTE ]

All sin worries me. Because as I said before there is no varrying degree of sin. Sin is Sin.

 6For the wages of sin is death 

That is reason enough to try to walk in Jesus footsteps every day.

BigJawn

07-08-2003, 05:39 PM

I dont really believe that god forgives all like murderers, Maybe with some extensive repent or whatever, But someone that ruthlessly kills people will surely have to suffer in hell if you ask me.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
every time I go without it for 3 or 4 days I have wet dreams,

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been doing insane amounts of research on sleep.

According to the new science of dreams, dream content is a function of memories selected by a random biological process. This process is most striking when there are the abrupt thematic changes which are so characteristic of dreams. For the received view from Freud, in contrast, selection of all memories is meaningful. The new science's critique of Freud is considered in detail and found to lack force. Examination of an exemplary dream shows unifying concepts that bridge across radical thematic discontinuities.

Dreaming: Journal of the Association for the Study of Dreams. Vol 1(1) 27-40, Mar 1991.

Dreams are just mental images that have been put into your mind. Stop the images, control the dreams.

You need to read the whole post.

[ QUOTE ]
So wanting not to lust I perform the act without thinking about ANYTHING every 2 days. Is that a SIN??

[/ QUOTE ]

You are feeding the lust somewhere.

KrYptic.x

07-08-2003, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BigJawn said:
I dont really believe that god forgives all like murderers, Maybe with some extensive repent or whatever, But someone that ruthlessly kills people will surely have to suffer in hell if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Repentence with sincerety.

Look at Jesus death on the cross...

 32Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him.

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling F501 abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Venom

07-08-2003, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
KrYptic said:
[ QUOTE ]
BigJawn said:
I dont really believe that god forgives all like murderers, Maybe with some extensive repent or whatever, But someone that ruthlessly kills people will surely have to suffer in hell if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Repentence with sincerety.

Look at Jesus death on the cross...

 32Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him.

39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling F501 abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."


[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent verse. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But someone that ruthlessly kills people will surely have to suffer in hell if you ask me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then the Apostle Paul is in real trouble!!

Here is Paul actions before he encountered Christ!

 1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.

3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.


Here Paul is going about killing when the Lord appears to him.

 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the *****s.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.



And Paul later admitted it

 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


Just like us Paul was saved by grace.

I guarntee in heaven we are going to see some people and say, "How did you get here! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif"

"The same way you did, grace! "

Brad140

07-08-2003, 06:09 PM

Anything us teenagers can do with our crazy hormones and such besides think of the kitty?heh

BigJawn

07-08-2003, 06:10 PM

wow, that was excellent, thanks for sharing those verses. Im always getting enlightened everyday on here, great group of people /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Brampton_Boy

07-08-2003, 06:17 PM

So am I to believe that those who are staunchly against masturbation have never indulged? If so, you have the strongest resolve I have ever come across.

Secondly, if god makes masturbation such a sin, why can murderers, theifs and adulterers become "born again" and have a clean slate? In theory, couldn't you just do that every time you masturbated? (It's no different, considering you would feel guilty and genuinely want god's help)

I am very religous, but I can't honestly say I have never lusted after a girl before. When you like somebody, you automatically have thoughts of a sexual nature that would be deemed inappropriate by the bible. Humans are inherantly flawed, thus, perpetuating a moral schema that drives fear into people doesn't help any.

If anything, we should be educating our youth about safe sexual practices, and the importance of abstaining from sex until marriage. A healthy sexuality, free of arbitrary religous conventions, is far more important than obeying an archaic rule.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anything us teenagers can do with our crazy hormones and such besides think of the kitty?heh

[/ QUOTE ]

Defenietly bro!

The first step is stop surrounding yourself with lust. If you have any porno or TV channels cancel them or throw the magazines out.

It is OK to notice a girl is cute but don't lust after her. There is also Godly sense behind that. Once you master not lusting, you will get to know the girl instead of letting your hormones guide you. Without lust as the focus of the relationship you will see if you really like the girl. This can save you potential headaches! /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Also when temptation arises pray, study, workout, visit ABC, anything. Just get active. There are better ways to spend your time!

Also know what to avoid.

There is usually a trigger that activates a person's lust. For some it's as easy as pushing a button on the computer. If this is the case, put up blocks on your computer. Yeah, you could turn them off, but that gives you more time to think about your actions.

If it's magazines, throw them away, and don't go around stores that you can buy them at.

At the gym get into the war mentality. You don't have time to lust over girls there anyway.

At school, pay attention in class!

Quit listening to music that promotes fornication, etc.

At the theater if there is nudity leave and get a water! You won't miss anything.

You mind was created so you could soak up God's Word, but we have the ability to fill it with what we want.

If we fill it with garbage we will think about garbage. If we fill it with Godly things, we will focus on God!

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In theory, couldn't you just do that every time you masturbated?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't take advantage of grace.

True parents will always love you no matter what. But don't take advantage of their love. God will always love you no matter what, don't take advantage of His Son's Crucifixion.

[ QUOTE ]
If anything, we should be educating our youth about safe sexual practices, and the importance of abstaining from sex until marriage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and experts agree. The safest sex practice is abstinance until marriage. Yet we bombard them with sex all day long in music, TV, movies, entertainment. What a great strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
So am I to believe that those who are staunchly against masturbation have never indulged? If so, you have the strongest resolve I have ever come across.

[/ QUOTE ]

That has nothing to do with this. All have sinned. But we have acknowldeged that and asked for Grace. Being a Christian means being Christ like, not justification of "indulging".

[ QUOTE ]
When you like somebody, you automatically have thoughts of a sexual nature that would be deemed inappropriate by the bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not true. and contradicts what you said right before it.

[ QUOTE ]
am very religous, but I can't honestly say I have never lusted after a girl before.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said you have never lusted. I'm sure you've like a girl. By your own standard you have said you can like a girl and not lust after her.

Sniper99

07-08-2003, 07:04 PM

I do agree that masturbation needs to be done carefully and that it CAN be a slipperly slope, and I am not saying I have been perfect in the past when doing it, far from it, but everyone makes mistakes sometimes, and I have gotten better.

The other thing I will say to those who are steadfastly against it, be careful what you tell your children. Telling your 13 year old child that masturbation is a horrible sin will more likely than not lead to oppressive guilt and torment rather than lead to their not masturbating.

PS: I do not look at porn, dirty magazines, etc. I prefer nudity not be present in movies, though a little bit, while not ideal, does not bother me.

realjones

07-08-2003, 07:14 PM

if masturbation is a sin I am going to have a lot of explaining to do when I arrive at the gates of heaven /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

puma87

07-08-2003, 07:18 PM

if everybody stopped it would wipe out the paper towel business!

07-08-2003, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Venom said:
It's a sin. Here are some old quotes:

[ QUOTE ]

Psalms 101: 1 - 3

1 I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing. 2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart. 3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

Here we see David refused to compromise his faith one inch. He refused to even contemplate on anything sinful. Why though?

James 1:13-18
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin is first conceived, than when brought forth brings death. The key is don't even think about it.

So here is a easy way to tell whether to ponder or do something or rather to avoid it:

Philippians 4:1-9
. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

So keep a good mindset and contemplate on virtues things.

1 John 2:12-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

If you are fulfilling the lusts of your flesh than avoid it (Satan also tempted Adam and eve in the garden, and Jesus in the desert with these same 3 deceptions. The former fell for them, while Christ smote them down with the sword of the spirit).

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like my wife is always getting mad at me for stupid things (looking at other women). I can't help but think is this God's way of telling me to stop staring at other women?

Christ already did tell you to stop this:

Matthew 5:27-32
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 6:19-24
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Jesus clearly states to avoid the lusts of your eyes. It is very important to follow these instructions.

John also adds to this.

1 John 2:12-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

So clearly in the scriptures you want to avoid these 3 lusts. So now that we know that is wrong, the question is how do you avoid this lust?

1 Corinthians 10:6-14
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

There is always a way to escape when you are being tempted. Look for this!

For example, if right now you are being tempted with something on the Internet. If you can handle it, than just exit out of the browser, open a new one and get back to work. But if you know you cant, than exit out, turn of your computer, and go to work on something else. Or better yet go pray.

This goes for all temptations, always use your head, think not with your flesh but with the spirit.

So look out for these lusts and when you are tempted, seek a way out.

[ QUOTE ]
member:
But I am a christian too and if I think in any way this is wrong I will stop, so im kinna confused about the whole thing. I dont know what to think really. Man teenage years are confusing. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Romans 14:22-23
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is ****ed if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

By your post above, its quite evident you cannot smoke pot in faith, and anything not done in faith is a sin. Also:

[ QUOTE ]
member said:Well I just dont know. I mean I know what I am doing is illegal but well I like it so I am going to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Romans 8:12-16
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

If you are doing something just to please the lusts of your flesh that is sin. Walk after the spirit, and you don't have to worry, because there is no law against the spirit of life!

Here are some check marks before you do something your not sure about:

1. Can I do this in 100% faith towards God?
2. Am I pleasing my flesh, and fulfilling the lusts thereof willingly? Or am I walking with the spirit?

And keep your chin up buddy, we all just want to help.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is plenty more. I'll add later.

[/ QUOTE ]

isnt over eating also a sin?

i just dont understand how its a sin...it says it is in the bible, but its not like your harming someone or something, its your **** body and you should be able to do what ever you want with it/to it....if thats what you want then thats what you can and should do, its better have a bunch of guys releasing sexual energy through masturbation, then through sexual assault and rape.

Venom

07-08-2003, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
isnt over eating also a sin?

[/ QUOTE ]
Gluttony is a sin, but that is a whole nother subject. Nothing to do with this.

[ QUOTE ]
its your **** body and you should be able to do what ever you want with it/to it....

[/ QUOTE ]

No its not:

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

I don't understand what is so difficult about this. If we are wrong, show us some scriptures to support this, or refute what we said with scripture.

07-08-2003, 07:58 PM

^first of all it does have something to do with it. if you can over eat, which EVERYONE of us does especially on holidays, why cant we masturbate? its the same thing, only when you over eat u just get fat, when you masturbate you surpress sexual urges that are built up and need to be released, for those who do not have girl friends/married need to do that somehow..think about a nation full of sex hungry people, well thats already the case, think of a nation with people that cant even sleep because of their sexual urges, what are they going to do if not masturbate? rape? sexual assault?....is rape a sin? cause it sure is a crime.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
don't understand what is so difficult about this. If we are wrong, show us some scriptures to support this, or refute what we said with scripture.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you.

I have noticed all who oppose this sin, never back it up with scripture. It is always their opinion and that's what counts most. I am open to scripture, not peoples opinions. Let's see the verses that say you can indulge in sexual lust outside of marriage.

Also, I am not going to lie to my children. Sexual lust outside of marriage is sin. I'm not going to candy coat sin. Trying to make me feel bad because others can't control themselves is not my problem.

My kids never asked to be born to me. God trusted their upbringing to me. I'm not going to lie to them about the bible.

They can always talk to me about any problems they are facing.

The husband is to be the priest of the household. I won't compromise that position.

SirLiftsaLot

07-08-2003, 08:13 PM

2 Peter 2
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I have always looked on these verses as God's understanding that we will continue to return to our most common transgressions. We can do our best to abstain, but is God not comparing us here to a dog returning to his own vomit?

07-08-2003, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
[ QUOTE ]
don't understand what is so difficult about this. If we are wrong, show us some scriptures to support this, or refute what we said with scripture.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you.

I have noticed all who oppose this sin, never back it up with scripture. It is always their opinion and that's what counts most. I am open to scripture, not peoples opinions. Let's see the verses that say you can indulge in sexual lust outside of marriage.

Also, I am not going to lie to my children. Sexual lust outside of marriage is sin. I'm not going to candy coat sin. Trying to make me feel bad because others can't control themselves is not my problem.

My kids never asked to be born to me. God trusted their upbringing to me. I'm not going to lie to them about the bible.

They can always talk to me about any problems they are facing.

The husband is to be the priest of the household. I won't compromise that position.

[/ QUOTE ]

well see thats what i meant....i never said it was a sin...but then again so is over eating! and in my opinion its much better to commit a sin now, by satisfiying your OWN body then doing something stupid and illegal later.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 08:31 PM

No that is not referring to saved Christians, but false prophets and teachers.

 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies , even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute . 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[3] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[4] and despise authority. 11Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[5] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them . 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error . 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him . 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[6] and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."



God is condemning them for preaching false doctrines.

However, atthey knew the truth of Christ, turned from God to entice their desires.

 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Because of their sin they will recieve a worse punishment than someone who never knew the Lord. It would have been better if they never heard of God! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Not a position I want to be in.

SirLiftsaLot

07-08-2003, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
No that is not referring to saved Christians, but false prophets and teachers.

 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies , even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute . 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[3] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[4] and despise authority. 11Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[5] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them . 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error . 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him . 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[6] and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."



God is condemning them for preaching false doctrines.

However, atthey knew the truth of Christ, turned from God to entice their desires.

 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Because of their sin they will recieve a worse punishment than someone who never knew the Lord. It would have been better if they never heard of God! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Not a position I want to be in.

[/ QUOTE ]

So those that know of the Lord and are saved have to ability to completely abstain from sin altogether? Are we all not sinners, and only those who are non-repentant are in trouble. Many here may say the can say they are living a life without lust, but I would say they are are lying to themselves in some way. I can abstain, but to say that I can control my thoughts to completely remove impure, or lustful thoughts would be a lie. I would rather repent, than to be that guy at the gates of heaven that believes he has had that halo, and lived a more sin free life than the next. I'll be yelling, I am a sinner Lord, without you I deserve nothing more than hell.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 08:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but then again so is over eating!

[/ QUOTE ]

You have no clue what you are talking about.

Where does the bible discuss gluttony?? What are the precursors? What are the ramifications of it? What are the signs of it?

[ QUOTE ]
and in my opinion its much better to commit a sin now, by satisfiying your OWN body then doing something stupid and illegal later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also scripturally , Venom is right you are not comparing the same thing.

13 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 

There is your answer. Food is for the belly, but if you make food your god it is idolatry. Gluttony is idolatry. It has nothing to do with eating the exact number of calories to fill you up, and if you go one over you have sinned.

The body is never for fornication!

19 Listen, my son, and be wise,
and keep your heart on the right path.
20 Do not join those who drink too much wine
or gorge themselves on meat,
21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,
and drowsiness clothes them in rags.


Gluttony is comparable to drunkedness. It is idolatry. Seeking somthing else to take the place of God.


14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? [b]Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never ! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[2] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
.

That speaks for itself.

[ QUOTE ]
by satisfiying your OWN body

[/ QUOTE ]

 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body .

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 08:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So those that know of the Lord and are saved have to ability to completely abstain from sin altogether?

[/ QUOTE ]

Defenietly! The bible says we are never tempted above what we can stand. I can back that up with many scriptures.

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather repent, than to be that guy at the gates of heaven that believes he has had that halo, and lived a more sin free life than the next. I'll be yelling, I am a sinner Lord, without you I deserve nothing more than hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have the wrong idea bro. Of course we are all saved by grace. And I am the first to admit I need that!I never said you are ****ed if you sin again. But that is not a justification for sin.

We can't lie to God and tell him we aren't sinning.

Sexual lust outside of marriage is a sin. Bottom line.

[ QUOTE ]
Many here may say the can say they are living a life without lust, but I would say they are are lying to themselves in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It takes discipline that is for sure.

And I never said I am perfect all the time, but I'm not going to say to myself, "Oh well, it's not a sin." No. We are walking with the Lord. Not just "along for the ride".

We need to be accoutable for our actions, and admit to God if we have a downful. And be humble enough to tell God that.

We can flee sexual lust and resist it. I will be glad to teach how if you want. But you can't teach something to someone who doesn't believe they need the knowldege!

Taz54868

07-08-2003, 08:50 PM

Christian men - thougths on masturbation (Total Votes: 23)
I think is is OK and I do it with some regularity.
16 69%

I think it is inherently sinful but I still do it from time to time.
3 13%

While it may not be inherently sinful, I personally don't like it, but I do it from time to time.
1 04%

I think it is inherently sinful and I do it seldom if ever.
2 08%

While it may not be inherently sinful, I personally don't like it, and I do it seldom if ever.
1 04%

Return to Forum seems most people onthis board feel it's O.K.
It may be a sin but everyone does it everyone that is.if you say you don't i would have to say you lie

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 08:55 PM

If you haven't noticed, half of these posts haven't been by Christians. So the pole title means nothing in my opinion. I also never voted.

The option, "I don't and it's a sin" wasn't there.

Taz54868

07-08-2003, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
If you haven't noticed, half of these posts haven't been by Christians. So the pole title means nothing in my opinion. I also never voted.

The option, "I don't and it's a sin" wasn't there.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes I have noticed most posts heve been by Christians. I was just pointing out what the results where so far.

SirLiftsaLot

07-08-2003, 09:08 PM

The verses from John in your signature go against what you are saying. I must be misunderstanding you, as no one is without sin or can abstain from it completely, as if you could you would also be 'Perfect'. You must simply be stating that with Gods' help in your life you have been better able to see the sins for what they are, and restrained yourself from them as best you could. I appreciate your offer in helping me, I have learned plenty from many of the moderators already Old School, and continue to grow spiritually. I never said I didn't need knowledge of Christ or knowledge in ways to live my life with his guidance. I will continue to try to do as you stated in one of the above posts and remove as many of the temptations that are in my life, that draw me back to my sins. Thanks for the help in understanding.

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

07-08-2003, 09:14 PM

....so.....your trying to tell me that gluttony is not a sin? its not? it is not bad to over eat according to the bible? i could SWEAR it said something about it in there...maybe i got a bad copy, thats what i get for buying smuggled bibles....in my book ,there are other things except the bible, i like to call that thing "logic" and according to my "logic" satisfying your own urges is not a crime. i would rather masturbate and not worry about being all agressive because of sexual energy..im not saying i am, but thats what happens to the human male body...sexual urges do occur.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
there are other things except the bible, i like to call that thing "logic" and according to my "logic" satisfying your own urges is not a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Taz54868

07-08-2003, 09:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
duderoi said:
i would rather masturbate and not worry about being all agressive because of sexual energy..im not saying i am, but thats what happens to the human male body...sexual urges do occur.

[/ QUOTE ]
they also occur in the female body as i am sure most ladies will admit to

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
they also occur in the female body as i am sure most ladies will admit to

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys have the wrong idea. There is nothing bad about sex. But it's for the confines of marriage. Believe me I have learned that the hard way.

Christians are not controlled by emotions. If someone cuts me off, I may get mad, but I don't get out of my car and start punching people.

Sexual urges are no different than any other emotion. They can be controlled and not acted upon.

Sexual urges are also triggered by events.

For men it is usually visual stimuli, which is why at the bottom of page two I tried to give some tips on how to avoid this. The urges are so strong because we feed them.

Let's say you're on a cut. If I go to the store and buy cakes, cookies, and pies, come to your house and leave them and say, "don't eat these you're cutting!" How hard is that going to be! Impossible!

It's the same with sex urges. If you indulge in porno, lusting after every girl you see, listen to music that promotes sex all day, you are going to fuel that desire big time. Now it's impossible to resist.

Just like with the cut. Remove the garbage remove the desire!

07-08-2003, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
[ QUOTE ]
there are other things except the bible, i like to call that thing "logic" and according to my "logic" satisfying your own urges is not a crime.

[/ QUOTE ]

 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually....im feeling GREAT things have really never been better....one of you yourself said "death can occur to anyone, even a priest" so if it can occur to anyone why should i bother? if its meant to happen to me, so be it, if not its not....death doesnt follow religion. if your going to get hit by a car, its not god, its the idiot driving the car. if your going to get a heart attack, its either your genetics, or your poor life style, not god.

Adam Knowlden

07-08-2003, 09:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
actually....im feeling GREAT things have really never been better....one of you yourself said "death can occur to anyone, even a priest" so if it can occur to anyone why should i bother? if its meant to happen to me, so be it, if not its not....death doesnt follow religion. if your going to get hit by a car, its not god, its the idiot driving the car. if your going to get a heart attack, its either your genetics, or your poor life style, not god.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right death is a consequence of sin. Which is why Jesus defeated it.

I put those verses to show the danger of your "logic".

You said you go by your own logic. In other words you decide what is "right" and what is "wrong" based on your own opinion.

In other words there are no absolutes, ie. man is the god of his own universe.

If this is the case, then Hitler was right. Who's to say he was not. It was right by his "logic" and he decided what was "right" for him and who was "wrong".

Really there is no right or wrong. Those are relative words, not real or ultimate truths.

If there are no absolutes, who decides what is right or wrong? each individual person.

That is dangerous thinking. If there is no absolute authority, in other words God, then anarchy rules.

If I felt like it I could shoot you because I'm the god of my own universe. If you don't like it too bad, because I'm god.

 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods , knowing good and evil.

**DONOTDELETE**

07-08-2003, 09:52 PM

Venom

07-08-2003, 09:57 PM

Hey SL, here is a verse that sums that subject up:

Philippians 3:9-14
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Yes we have sinned, and do not claim to be perfect. But, as Christians we strive toward perfection, and fully serve God with all our being. That does not mean we may, or may not sin; it simply means that's our goal. Some more verses:

1 John 3:4-10
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:18-18
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 6:1-23
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 6:15-15
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

jocked

07-08-2003, 10:13 PM

It has to be pretty inconsequential, considering the vast support the death penalty has in the Christian political community!

**DONOTDELETE**

07-08-2003, 10:23 PM

Palmetto State Dude

07-08-2003, 11:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
duderoi said:
its better have a bunch of guys releasing sexual energy through masturbation, then through sexual assault and rape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or cheat on your wife with some cheap, one-night stand fluesy!

Gotta take the lesser of two evils! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SirLiftsaLot

07-08-2003, 11:35 PM

Thanks Yu,OS, and Venom for the verses, it cleared up quite a bit for me. I may have been looking at things the wrong way for quite a while, especially my most common sins, in which I have returned to many times, and always felt like with repentance I would be forgiven regardless. Well, all I can say is thanks, and with Jesus, hopefully I can stay true to his path.

**DONOTDELETE**

07-08-2003, 11:37 PM

Venom

07-08-2003, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yu Yevon said:
[ QUOTE ]
SirLiftsaLot said:
Thanks Yu,OS, and Venom for the verses, it cleared up quite a bit for me. I may have been looking at things the wrong way for quite a while, especially my most common sins, in which I have returned to many times, and always felt like with repentance I would be forgiven regardless. Well, all I can say is thanks, and with Jesus, hopefully I can stay true to his path.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fantastic news brother! I'll definitly pray for you! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's great! Glad to hear you're motivated. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

gavigan

07-08-2003, 11:39 PM

i rewad once ina book that was written for young teens to understand the bible...that masturbation is only wrong if you have un poure tohughts while doing it...but how the hell can ya do it without un pure thoughts....unless your some sicko it aint happening

KrYptic.x

07-08-2003, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Palmetto State Dude said:
[ QUOTE ]
duderoi said:
its better have a bunch of guys releasing sexual energy through masturbation, then through sexual assault and rape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or cheat on your wife with some cheap, one-night stand fluesy!

Gotta take the lesser of two evils! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Guys who would sexually assult anyone or would cheat on their wives are going to do so whether they masturbate or not in my opinion.

Taz54868

07-08-2003, 11:58 PM

07-08-2003, 11:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
[ QUOTE ]
actually....im feeling GREAT things have really never been better....one of you yourself said "death can occur to anyone, even a priest" so if it can occur to anyone why should i bother? if its meant to happen to me, so be it, if not its not....death doesnt follow religion. if your going to get hit by a car, its not god, its the idiot driving the car. if your going to get a heart attack, its either your genetics, or your poor life style, not god.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right death is a consequence of sin. Which is why Jesus defeated it.

I put those verses to show the danger of your "logic".

You said you go by your own logic. In other words you decide what is "right" and what is "wrong" based on your own opinion.

In other words there are no absolutes, ie. man is the god of his own universe.

If this is the case, then Hitler was right. Who's to say he was not. It was right by his "logic" and he decided what was "right" for him and who was "wrong".

Really there is no right or wrong. Those are relative words, not real or ultimate truths.

If there are no absolutes, who decides what is right or wrong? each individual person.

That is dangerous thinking. If there is no absolute authority, in other words God, then anarchy rules.

If I felt like it I could shoot you because I'm the god of my own universe. If you don't like it too bad, because I'm god.

 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods , knowing good and evil. 

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i go by my own logic and by the logic set by society, if 95 percent of the population does something, thats harmless to themselves i dont see why i would not do it if i wanted to...if you are a religious person then its another story, you dont follow society, you follow the bible. and God isnt the only thing keeping us in peace, that is why we have astablished governments, hospitals, fire departments, and police stations, and it is those people that work in those place who save and help make our lives better and safer. In MY opinion it is no external force, it is one person helping another, and then the person being helped some how helps the person that helped him.....when a teacher teaches your kids algebra for instance, you pay taxes to pay for her teachings, when you need surgery, you pay for that surgery, you pay for the doctor to help you, you do not pay god.

Taz54868

07-09-2003, 12:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
[ QUOTE ]
So those that know of the Lord and are saved have to ability to completely abstain from sin altogether?

[/ QUOTE ]

Defenietly! The bible says we are never tempted above what we can stand. I can back that up with many scriptures.

[/ QUOTE ] correct me if I am wrong is this telling me that those who are saved never sin again?
Or do they still sin

**DONOTDELETE**

07-09-2003, 12:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yu Yevon said:
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actually....im feeling GREAT things have really never been better....one of you yourself said "death can occur to anyone, even a priest" so if it can occur to anyone why should i bother? if its meant to happen to me, so be it, if not its not....death doesnt follow religion.

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Why should you bother being righteous if death could occur at any time? Is this what you are saying? It matters because I think you would rather spent eternity in heaven with the Lord than spend an eternity in hell without Him.

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if your going to get hit by a car, its not god, its the idiot driving the car.

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Who made the person driving the car? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Who made the people who made the car? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Who made the materials used to make the car? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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if your going to get a heart attack, its either your genetics, or your poor life style, not god.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me a break.

So do you not believe in God at all then? I thought you did. /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

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well thats the thing yu...only religious people believe in hell and heaven, in god and the devil..not everyone does...take an athiest if you will, he could not care less about hell or heaven because he thinks it doesnt exist, like you think it does, neither theories have been 100% prooven to the point of no argument..the reason the athiest would have good morals is because he is using his logic and says to himself "you know what, since murder is illegal im not going to do it, but since masturbation is legal, and is not hurting anyone , i think i will because it will relieve my sexual stresses and make me a better person". and the car thing, well again that is just a religious persons opinion, you think god made all of those things, while another will say the guy went to the store, bought the car that was made from natual substances, and/or man made substances, payed money for the car, put his own foot on his pedal and used HIS OWN brain to drive.

07-09-2003, 12:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
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they also occur in the female body as i am sure most ladies will admit to

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys have the wrong idea. There is nothing bad about sex. But it's for the confines of marriage. Believe me I have learned that the hard way.

Christians are not controlled by emotions. If someone cuts me off, I may get mad, but I don't get out of my car and start punching people.

Sexual urges are no different than any other emotion. They can be controlled and not acted upon.

Sexual urges are also triggered by events.

For men it is usually visual stimuli, which is why at the bottom of page two I tried to give some tips on how to avoid this. The urges are so strong because we feed them.

Let's say you're on a cut. If I go to the store and buy cakes, cookies, and pies, come to your house and leave them and say, "don't eat these you're cutting!" How hard is that going to be! Impossible!

It's the same with sex urges. If you indulge in porno, lusting after every girl you see, listen to music that promotes sex all day, you are going to fuel that desire big time. Now it's impossible to resist.

Just like with the cut. Remove the garbage remove the desire!

[/ QUOTE ]

well i do agree with you, one should not go around doing everything and everyone he sees, but i do not think there is something wrong with sex with someone you love and trust, even if you are not married, that is just something set by the bible...and like you said, if your on a cut and you eat, youll get fat, but if you have sexual urges and you masturbate, what will happen? except for the supposed hell/heaven thing....

07-09-2003, 12:11 AM

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Yu Yevon said:
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jocked said:
It has to be pretty inconsequential, considering the vast support the death penalty has in the Christian political community!

[/ QUOTE ]

This has no relevance here and is not applicable to this arguement. Yes some christians believe in the death penalty. Others believe in pro-choice. Others still (as seen in this thread) believe masturbation is not a sin and is perfectly healthy and natural. But the REAL answers are in God's Word.

[/ QUOTE ]

this brings me to another point i was pondering about...do you not think, if all christians read the same bible, and follow the same god, they would follow the same belives? that for example, the death penalty is right/wrong...same with sex and different believes about evolution.....you have no idea how many times i have heard different made up stories like "the devil put dinosaurs bones on earth to trick us", and then the same person saying "there is no devil" ..it just doesnt follow through, and i would also like to brush across a very sensitive subject, which is the ministers raping alter boys, why has god no prevented/stopped this from happening? why would he let one of his representatives sexualy abuse one of his followers?
im sorry if this is a bad subject, but it should not be forgotten...

07-09-2003, 12:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yu Yevon said:
Duderoi, clearly you are not able to see who is at the foundation of all of the systems in place in this world. Where did all of these systems (governments etc) come from? You could answer people and not be wrong. But then again, where did people come from? I think if you establish a foundation of Creation, then you can build upon that. We're discussing a topic that would have no relavence to you without a foundation set. You can't walk on the 40th floor of a building if the cement for the bottom has not even been laid.

What is it exactly that is holding you back from believing in the existance of God?

[/ QUOTE ]

well in your opinion it all came from God, in anothers it all formed through evolution, and it doesnt have to be the evolution of humans and different types of species, it can be the evolutions of governments, school systems, laws etc...we, as a society have evolved to make a better place for us, and our children, we have worked hard to make it right, we have made up laws, we have made up rules, we have fought battles to settle for land on which we now live on...its we, us, everyone, the people, not a force, just us. we took matters into our own hands, if there was someone out there doing it for us, we wouldnt have wars, we wouldnt have fighting, everyone would live in peace, but thats not the case is it? no, its not because we do not live in a perfect world thats controled by an external force, we are the onez that fix and make everything to make our living conditions right.

and to answer your question, its not that i dont completely not believe, but i am really doubtful....when i sit down for dinner, it is me who cooked the food, and bought the grocceries, its not god who made my food for me, its not god who buys me a car , its not god who does everything for me....believe me yu, if i actually saw god giving me and the rest of the world all of those things, i would be the strongest believer there is, its not that i just refuse to believe, its just that why? why would i spend my life believing in something i deep down inside know is not really there, its just something i go to to comfort me in a time of need, its just something i would say thanks to every morning and night, but never get a "you welcome", because simply, i am the one that makes my life, and decides it, my life also depends on other people, but their lives are also set by them, and them only. its like....i want to believe, i really do, but its just i cant, there is just nothing i see that i can believe in...this of mythology, and how people used to believe in Zeus and the rest of those gods, that faded away and evolved into one god, the one we have now, whos not to say that that system wont change in 3000 years? whos to say that another bible cant be writen? who says that the bible is true? how are you so sure its not fictional, and please dont bomb me with more quotes, because deep down, they really dont meen anything to me, its would be the same as me quoting dr.seus for you...just wouldnt make sence....

**DONOTDELETE**

07-09-2003, 12:23 AM

07-09-2003, 12:37 AM

thank you for the articles yu, they really are informative.....as i said "and to answer your question, its not that i dont completely not believe, but i am really doubtful....when i sit down for dinner, it is me who cooked the food, and bought the grocceries, its not god who made my food for me, its not god who buys me a car , its not god who does everything for me....believe me yu, if i actually saw god giving me and the rest of the world all of those things, i would be the strongest believer there is, its not that i just refuse to believe, its just that why? why would i spend my life believing in something i deep down inside know is not really there, its just something i go to to comfort me in a time of need, its just something i would say thanks to every morning and night, but never get a "you welcome", because simply, i am the one that makes my life, and decides it, my life also depends on other people, but their lives are also set by them, and them only. its like....i want to believe, i really do, but its just i cant, there is just nothing i see that i can believe in...this of mythology, and how people used to believe in Zeus and the rest of those gods, that faded away and evolved into one god, the one we have now, whos not to say that that system wont change in 3000 years? whos to say that another bible cant be writen? who says that the bible is true? how are you so sure its not fictional, and please dont bomb me with more quotes, because deep down, they really dont meen anything to me, its would be the same as me quoting dr.seus for you...just wouldnt make sence.... "

just put youself in these shoes,,,pretend you just land on earth, you dont know anything, you watch a little tv, watch a little football and other sports, you see how the sun sets at night, and rises at day, how the weather changes, you wonder, how does this happen? so you turn on the weather channel, and you see that its caused by moving clouds, and cold and hot air, and you read in a book that the earth rotates around the sun, causing day and night, you then read about how humans had evolved from apes, you say "what? how can this be true" and then you read about how the genetics changes, and we had adapated to our enviorment by becoming smarter, and slowly transforming into people, this makes sence, logically to you, in your head because you know how mutation and geneology works and all of that....you then open a bible, in which ALL of the information is provided by an unknown source, this absolutely contridicts everything you have believed in before and was logic to you, this is just a book, with different theories in them, and a lot of people believe in those theories...if the bible makes sence to you, and you trust a book that was writen thousands of years ago, and contridicts science and what logically makes sence to you, go ahead....or you could turst what had been proven with real life science. dinosaurs had been proven, and radioactive dating shows that they did not live at the same times humans did, but according to the bible they did, and that the earth is only a few million years old, when according to science, and your logic which says that so much change could not occur over only a few million years ago, but it would take billions of years....just try to put yourself in an atheists point of view, pretend you were not raised up to believe in god, you probably wont, if you saw your parents be atheists you probly would be too..imagin not hearing about the bible and god until just now, imagin how ridicoulous it would sound hearing about a force doing everything for us, when infact you are the one that ate the food , and made it, and paid for it...and you are the one that made specific actions, but then someone tells you, its not you, its god.

konaforever

07-09-2003, 12:40 AM

I love Jesus! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

07-09-2003, 12:43 AM

konaforever

07-09-2003, 12:47 AM

07-09-2003, 12:48 AM

oh and p.s. im an not an atheist, im am just very open minded when it comes to stuff like this, im...i forgot the term, but im more of a "ill believe it when i see it" i think the main reason i just stopped believing and trying to prove you guys wrong is because my dad past away 5 years ago, and it just really broke my heart, i compeletly gave up on god and anything else......i know it should of been the time i should of prayed the most, but....i actually do want to believe, but just deep down inside, i just cant....

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
duderoi said:
its better have a bunch of guys releasing sexual energy through masturbation, then through sexual assault and rape.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you're joking. Rapists have serious mental issues involving the desire to control women. Masturbating is not going to curve that. You need to think before you spout out nonsense. Don't come here just to argue, present a serious case. The above comment is totally lame and foolish.

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Or cheat on your wife with some cheap, one-night stand fluesy!

Gotta take the lesser of two evils!

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I'll take neither of the two evils. If lust was not controlling you this would not be an issue at all. Moreover, Christ said what you are doing is just as sinful in His eyes as the actual act. Read the entire thread.

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the reason the athiest would have good morals is because he is using his logic and says to himself "you know what, since murder is illegal im not going to do it, but since masturbation is legal, and is not hurting anyone , i think i will because it will relieve my sexual stresses and make me a better person".

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I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I am going to show you what atheism really means. I will take the position of an atheist to demonstrate.

"So what. Who's to say your rules or ideas of rules are right? Who is to say those beliefs are right? I can do what I want. I am my own god. If I don't like someone I kill them. You say I shouldn't do it because it's illegal. So the only ramification is I just don't get caught. Ultimately there is nothing wrong with me murdering, I just shouldn't get caught.

There is no such thing as "evil" that's a cultural trend not a reality.

Majority opinion as to what is right and what is wrong is relative. It's not really "right" in the true sense. What I say is right is right."

This is wrong thinking my friend. God set up what is right and wrong. He made it clear. Live in sin for a season, or live with Him for eternity.

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this of mythology, and how people used to believe in Zeus and the rest of those gods, that faded away and evolved into one god, the one we have now, whos not to say that that system wont change in 3000 years? whos to say that another bible cant be writen? who says that the bible is true? how are you so sure its not fictional, and please dont bomb me with more quotes, because deep down, they really dont meen anything to me, its would be the same as me quoting dr.seus for you...just wouldnt make sence.... "

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We will address the bible's authenticity soon. But archeological evidence shows monotheism was around before polytheism, and the bible has been attempted to be destroyed numerous times.

The heathen Voltaire said that "within 50 years there will be no more bibles!" after he died his printing press was used to mass produce them.

The bible is going no where. But we'll get to that in the study.

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 12:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
my dad past away 5 years ago, and it just really broke my heart, i compeletly gave up on god and anything else......i know it should of been the time i should of prayed the most, but....i actually do want to believe, but just deep down inside, i just cant....

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't live like this bro... /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/overheads/images/oh20011102_86.jpg

God will heal those wounds if you let him.

 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

07-09-2003, 01:01 AM

^^ well i guess thats why im not an athiest, i just do not believe in the same thing you do, its what makes the world the great place that it is, would you really want a place where everyone is exactly the same, and believes in the exact same things? i didnt think so...you believe in something, and i do not...if i actually saw that something, i would, i think that every athest person would say that, if god came down and said "hey dude how come you dont believe in me" (you get the point) he would definetly start believing...heck i would dedicate myself to god...but for now, for me, there is more proof of science then there is of god...but i do disagree with your quote, just because your atheist DOESNT NOT meen that you say "if i dont like soemone i kill them" thats NOTHING really to do with religioun its more of the person, what do you think serial killers are only atheists? exactly, their not, i classify myself as a non atheist because i dont want to discriminate against religious I DID NOT SAY ITS NOT THERE 100% I SAYING I DONT SEE IT, and FOR NOW i dont believe everything in it..hopefully by the time im older more things will be clarified....

**DONOTDELETE**

07-09-2003, 01:07 AM

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 01:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
would you really want a place where everyone is exactly the same, and believes in the exact same things? i

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Those are two differnt things. I don't want everyones personality to be the same, but yes, if the whole world lived by God's 10 commandments it would be a literal heaven on earth.

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if i actually saw that something, i would, i think that every athest person would say that, if god came down and said "hey dude how come you dont believe in me" (you get the point) he would definetly start believing...heck i would dedicate myself to god...

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God has shown you everything. But your are being lied to.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/images/oh20030606_177.jpg

The bible says you and everyone else is without excuse...

http://tccsa.freeservers.com/archives/cartoons/rotten_web.jpg

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if i dont like soemone i kill them" thats NOTHING really to do with religioun its more of the person, what do you think serial killers are only atheists?

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You got the wrong impression. That can happen online.

My point is this. If there is no God, there is no "right" or "wrong". There is no good or evil, it's up to each person to decide what is good or evil. Really a serial killer is not evil or wrong, they just got caught. How is good and evil defined without absolutes. And how are absolutes determined if not by God? If man attempts to establish them he is setting himself up as a god.

07-09-2003, 01:22 AM

^^ well comon yu....with all do respect...those are 5 people out of millions, obviously there are many idiots out there...
now i will adress your previous post....my doubts? why would i believe in something that i have never seen? heard? and has never done anything for me, i have earned everything i have done in life, i did not ask god for help, i did it myself. yes the bible has quite a few strong points but so does science! both have strong theories, but its just...for me...the bible has so many irrelevent stories..like the sea opening, and all of that, i felt like i was reading a childrens book ( i used to live in israel for 9 years where they made us read the Tora in school...it was a class)...so i know a thing or two about the general story, and to me, its just so mixed up, more like a novel with theories in it...abuot the age of the earth, i remeber a post by JW that said something about dinosaurs living with humans, and the earth not being nearly as old as its thought to be...well thats the thing, thats just the bibles theory...it would be closed minded just to look at that, and no where else, it is not wrong to believe in what science has to say, its just as good as the bible, only it has different views on different things....i have to admit sometimes i do go to god myself, but its not because i believe he will help me its because hes just a comfort zone, i feel like i would talk to an animal (IM NOT COMPARING GOD TO AN ANIMAL) but just saying that hes not more of a help source, but just a listener that wont reply type thing.....and absolutely NOT! i do not think that god has to give me something materialistic in order for me to believe i was just giving an example...that when you pray for your food, your only really thanking yourself for working hard to provide that food for yourself and your family/friends...who ever...i feel confused, i really deep down, do not believe but then on the surface, im kind of debating myself about what to do....what to believe...i do now want to be one of those christians that goes to church on easter and thats all, and claims to believe in god, what good would that do?.....if i believe in something i believe in it all the way....but i guess i just dont really believe....yet....

07-09-2003, 01:26 AM

oldschoo.....about those cartoons....well you see those are descriminating against non believers just as much as non believers discriminate against believers..well that second one is....we dont think that the world just appeared here by chance, there are 300000 page books that try to explain it, just like the bible tries to explain it...i believe the book, and you believe the bible..whats the difference? just a difference of opinions....
and i meen...if god helped jesus back then, why doesnt he help us now? i remeber reading when i was younger about how he helped them , and gave them that bread or whatever....well where is he now? when we need him most with the wars going on?

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 01:33 AM

I believe you are actually wanting to find God but you are going about it all the wrong ways.

You are putting yourself on a pedastal and telling God to crawl to you. That will never happen.

1The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it , but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.



A lack of faith isn't going to get God to show you anything.

 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.



[ QUOTE ]
i think the main reason i just stopped believing and trying to prove you guys wrong is because my dad past away 5 years ago, and it just really broke my heart, i compeletly gave up on god and anything else......i know it should of been the time i should of prayed the most, but....i actually do want to believe, but just deep down inside, i just cant ....

[/ QUOTE ]

The real reason is that you are mad at God. Not that there is no evidence or it's too hard to believe without seeing.

Satan has amplified your pain. Now your father is gone and he's got you hating God. He's got you right where he wants you bro. I hate to see that for your life, but it's your choice.

07-09-2003, 01:38 AM

yeah i guess your right bro...i think im just intimidated, all this time ive been believing all ^^^^^ that, and jus the thought of someone controlling everything, someone that i cant see has been just too much to comprehend...like the satan thing, thaats kind of, tilting me back..i just dont know, if there is just something i could do to get me a slight shred of prooooof of god, i would be a believer...i guess you guys didnt need that shred, but i do....
talk to you guys tomorrow....bed time.

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 01:39 AM

The point of the cartoons is to show that the evidence for God is everywhere, but is blown off as meaning nothing.

[ QUOTE ]
why doesnt he help us now? i remeber reading when i was younger about how he helped them , and gave them that bread or whatever....well where is he now? when we need him most with the wars going on?

[/ QUOTE ]

He still does help. The greatest miracle is when a person comes to the Lord. That is greater than feeding 5 million people with 2 loaves.

As far as the wars, those are predicted in the bible.

During the days of Noah,

 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.


Jesus said it will be like Noah's day before he returns.

 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Jesus is coming soon to staighten out this mess. When all these signs are here he said, Look up your redemption is near!

JRB

07-09-2003, 02:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
duderoi said:
^^ ...the bible has so many irrelevent stories..like the sea opening, and all of that...

[/ QUOTE ]

The bible hasn't been proven wrong and many people have tried to prove things wrong and figured out that these so called "stories" are true.

Just an example: The Red sea parting...many tried to prove this wrong, but in a certain line submerged...only there...chariot wheels and human skeletons were found and removed along with many other artifacts.Everything idenified was idenified as from Early Egypt. Remember this is in the Red Sea.

Venom

07-09-2003, 05:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i just dont know, if there is just something i could do to get me a slight shred of prooooof of god, i would be a believer...i guess you guys didnt need that shred, but i do....

[/ QUOTE ]

We are told to serve the Lord with all our heart, mind, and soul. We do not have a blind faith, Christianity is an intelligent faith. This is why we preach boldly, because we know whom we serve.

What would you like answered?

PsychoJr

07-09-2003, 11:49 AM

Sorry to get this thread going again, just when it shifted to page 2...

[ QUOTE ]
Old School said:Christians are not controlled by emotions. If someone cuts me off, I may get mad, but I don't get out of my car and start punching people.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, idolary, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealosy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except in your own little group. Gal 5:20

Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior. Eph 4:31

My dear brothers and sisters, be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. Your anger can never make things right in God's sight. James 1:19-20

I believe that just as your anger did not result in punching another driver, the dirty deed does not result in lust. Perhaps we need a better definition of lust????

Tuf

07-09-2003, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
duderoi said:
i think the main reason i just stopped believing and trying to prove you guys wrong is because my dad past away 5 years ago, and it just really broke my heart, i compeletly gave up on god and anything else......i know it should of been the time i should of prayed the most, but....i actually do want to believe, but just deep down inside, i just cant....

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
duderoi said:
yeah i guess your right bro...i think im just intimidated, all this time ive been believing all ^^^^^ that, and jus the thought of someone controlling everything, someone that i cant see has been just too much to comprehend...

[/ QUOTE ]

I can relate to your struggle with this. My mom was suddenly killed in a car accident three years ago. At that time, I had been a believer for 15 years, but I was still so angry and I remember how empty my prayers felt during that time. It totally shook my safe and happy world and everything I believed it to be and I even remember thinking, "heaven better be real." I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning, but I think that it would help you to seek answers instead of allowing your anger to consume you and drive you away from the only one who can really help you and offer you comfort and peace and life. For those who have no personal relationship with the Lord, it is so easy to say when someone dies that "God did it" and to just become angry with Him. The believer, on the other hand, can find peace in the knowledge of His soverign plan.

It may be helpful for you to realize a few things. First of all, it was the fall of Adam that brought all mankind into sin and death:

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Mortality came through the transgression of Adam:

1 Corinthians 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But there is hope in those same verses. Justification through faith brings peace with God.

I believe that the more you get to know God and understand the way He works, the more your anger will diminish. You can look at the event as God "killing" people or you can seek to understand His attributes.

The Westminster Shorter Catechism definition (based solidly on Ephesians 1:11 which says, "We have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." ) of the decree of God states that:

[ QUOTE ]
The decrees of God are His eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His will, whereby, for His own glory, He hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass.

[/ QUOTE ]

One implication of this is that it is comprehensive; it includes the length of human life.

Job 14
5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; 

I won't lie to you or try to minimize the impact of death. The pain of losing my mom has resulted in anguish of unfathomable depths and has pervaded every facet of my life in ways I never would have expected. However, I can trust in His sovereignty:

Romans 14
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Job 23
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Job 33
13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.

Psalm 115
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 

And in His purpose:

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Jeremiah 29
11 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

Romans 8
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 

And for believers, there is this added comfort concerning those who died in Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

q22weasel

07-09-2003, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I am going to show you what atheism really means. I will take the position of an atheist to demonstrate.

"So what. Who's to say your rules or ideas of rules are right? Who is to say those beliefs are right? I can do what I want. I am my own god. If I don't like someone I kill them. You say I shouldn't do it because it's illegal. So the only ramification is I just don't get caught. Ultimately there is nothing wrong with me murdering, I just shouldn't get caught.

There is no such thing as "evil" that's a cultural trend not a reality.

Majority opinion as to what is right and what is wrong is relative. It's not really "right" in the true sense. What I say is right is right."

[/ QUOTE ]

that's not really a fair thing to say about athiests. just because we do not believe in a god does not mean that we run around killing people in hopes that we do not get caught. athiests still believe in rules and society, just not in a "supreme being" anarchists are the ones who do not belive in having and orgainzed society. i prefer to live my life for myself and not for some fairy tale.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
this of mythology, and how people used to believe in Zeus and the rest of those gods, that faded away and evolved into one god, the one we have now, whos not to say that that system wont change in 3000 years? whos to say that another bible cant be writen? who says that the bible is true? how are you so sure its not fictional, and please dont bomb me with more quotes, because deep down, they really dont meen anything to me, its would be the same as me quoting dr.seus for you...just wouldnt make sence.... "

[/ QUOTE ]

We will address the bible's authenticity soon. But archeological evidence shows monotheism was around before polytheism, and the bible has been attempted to be destroyed numerous times.

[/ QUOTE ]

so can you say that all of the other gods in history were just made up and your god is real? can you say that everyone who has ever believed in a different god as you has been wrong and is now burning in hell?

GetPsycho

07-09-2003, 01:07 PM

great post tuf. what a tragic loss and cant imagine what that must have been like to live through. both of my parents are alive and play a huge role in my life, i could not imagine life with them. glad to see you are doing OK with it.

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 01:53 PM

What great testimony tuf! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

That really got me. Thanks for sharing. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 02:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
that's not really a fair thing to say about athiests. just because we do not believe in a god does not mean that we run around killing people in hopes that we do not get caught. athiests still believe in rules and society, just not in a "supreme being" anarchists are the ones who do not belive in having and orgainzed society. i prefer to live my life for myself and not for some fairy tale

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I don't think you go around killing people. You guys are getting the wrong idea out of what I was saying.

If there is no God, then ultimately there really is no such thing as "good" or "evil", it's just a cultural trend of what is "good" or "evil" at the time.

Really Hitler was only wrong because our society said so, not because he was wrong in the true sense of the word.

Without God there is no absolutes, which means the words "good" and "evil", "right" and "wrong" are relative words and only comparable to what the soceity at that particular time thinks is "right" or "wrong".

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that just as your anger did not result in punching another driver, the dirty deed does not result in lust. Perhaps we need a better definition of lust????

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I didn't explan that throughly. Temptation itself is not the sin. Its how we respond to it. If a vain thought enters my mind, I am to disperse it immediately. If I ponder on a lustful thought, I will committ adultery in my mind by conjuring up sexual lust for the person. This then leads to masterbation/fornication/adultery.

Same with anger, someone cuts me off, I am tempted to act in rage, I disperse the thought immediately. The temptation is not a sin, it is what I do when I am tempted. Give into the flesh or walk in the spirit.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that just as your anger did not result in punching another driver, the dirty deed does not result in lust.

[/ QUOTE ]

First that is a bad analogy.
I said, a temptation of rage came on me, but I dispersed it and didn't act on it.

You are saying,

2. You essentially said(regarding this analogy and comparing to masturbation), I punched someone without being angry? You say you can masturbate without lusting, or using my analogy, someone can cut you off, and you can get out of your car and punch them, and have no anger in your heart?

That is your logic here, and it makes no sense. Thank you for proving my point.

If you really want me to help you battle sexual lust let me know . But if you're just trying to "catch me" then I'm not wasting my time. There are many other ways to spend my time. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you want to know what lust is read the rest of James 1. Just keep reading the chapter your in and you'll have your defenition.

 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


[ QUOTE ]
dirty deed does not result in lust.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin

[/ QUOTE ]

The bible says your lust brought about the dirty deed.
There is your defenition! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Taz54868

07-09-2003, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Taz54868 said:
[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
[ QUOTE ]
So those that know of the Lord and are saved have to ability to completely abstain from sin altogether?

[/ QUOTE ]

Defenietly! The bible says we are never tempted above what we can stand. I can back that up with many scriptures.

[/ QUOTE ] correct me if I am wrong is this telling me that those who are saved never sin again?
Or do they still sin

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked this on the previous page and have not seen an answer if i over looked it someone please point me in the correct direction.

GetPsycho

07-09-2003, 02:42 PM

Man this is deep! /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

PsychoJr

07-09-2003, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The bible says your lust brought about the dirty deed.
There is your defenition!

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. Just as you said you can look at a pretty girl without lusting, I think the "dirty deed" (and I say this in jest) can be done also. I think that's the primary point that people have been trying to make, and that maybe it keeps people from true lust.

JRB

07-09-2003, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Taz54868 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Taz54868 said:
[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
[ QUOTE ]
So those that know of the Lord and are saved have to ability to completely abstain from sin altogether?

[/ QUOTE ]

Defenietly! The bible says we are never tempted above what we can stand. I can back that up with many scriptures.

[/ QUOTE ] correct me if I am wrong is this telling me that those who are saved never sin again?
Or do they still sin

[/ QUOTE ]

I asked this on the previous page and have not seen an answer if i over looked it someone please point me in the correct direction.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, everyone sins, I still sin. What the bible means is with God's help when can overcome temptations. We can stand the temptations, but sometimes we fall because we don't ask for God's help. We start doing things on our own way and satan moves in to seduce us.

Once we are saved we can sin, because God's knows we can't be perfect and he doesn't expect us to be. We shouldn't sin though and try to live up to Jesus the best we can. God understands us living the best we can and accidently slipping, but God doesn't like this thing of sinning daily and asking for forgiveness then sinning again right after on purpose.

Venom

07-09-2003, 03:48 PM

Sweat signature TRB!

Keith Green is the man! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Venom

07-09-2003, 04:02 PM

That was great tuf. Thanks. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Taz54868

07-09-2003, 04:23 PM

Keith Green kinda looks like (cactus jack) Mic Folley

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Disagree. Just as you said you can look at a pretty girl without lusting, I think the "dirty deed" (and I say this in jest) can be done also. I think that's the primary point that people have been trying to make, and that maybe it keeps people from true lust. I know you disagree with this, so let's just disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what is the point of masterbation? It is not a naturally occuring biological function as noctural emissions are. It is a stimulated effect driven by uncontrolled lust.

You say it curves lust. Prove that scientifically, and demonstrate how that is even remotely biblical.

Then you say that you sometimes do lust when you do it. So why do that when there is a better option, that Christ gave, to submit your mind. WIth Christ's way there is no risk to sin, with your way you are putting yourself in a place to fall flat.

You say you masterbate to curve lust, but yet you do not lust when you masterbate? I'm not getting that at all.

Christ said to submit your mind to Him, that is how we beat lust. He never said anything about self-gratification. The bottom line is using masterbation as a tool to battle lust is your opinion, it is not biblical at all.

Saying you masterbate without lusting makes zero logical sense. There would be no point. You are acting as if masterbating is like going to the bathroom...you have to do it. Your logic does not flow.

Here is your arguement:

1. I masterbate without lusting, yet I use masterbation to not lust? That's called circular reasoning.

2. You've given no reason to masterbate, outside that it helps you not lust.
- Where is the science to back that up?
- Where is the scripture to back that up?

Bottom line: You are feeding lust somewhere. If you are using a carnal device to try to subdue the flesh, you are operating in a non-biblical way, and that is a fact.

Moreover, you are allowing the devil to form a stronghold in your mind. Therefore, you will always be bound to lust with this mentality, as you are literally allowing satan to continue controlling your flesh.

[ QUOTE ]
correct me if I am wrong is this telling me that those who are saved never sin again?
Or do they still sin

[/ QUOTE ]

We try to live up to Christ's example. We don't try to justify our sin. We admit it, ask for forgiveness, and move on.

 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.



This mentality of I'll do what I want and ask for forgiveness later, is a lie from the devil.

He knows sin keeps God from blessing you, so he spreads that lie. He can't get your spirit anymore because you are saved. His goal is to make havoc of your life by getting you into habitual sin.

PsychoJr

07-09-2003, 05:08 PM

I think another way to think about it, OS, is that when you are saved, sin is no longer your master. It's not that you don't sin, we all do, it’s that it no longer controls you.

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 05:18 PM

Yep!

 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

thunderpunch

07-09-2003, 05:23 PM

Is whacking it while thinking of your girlfriend a sin?

**DONOTDELETE**

07-09-2003, 05:57 PM

thunderpunch

07-09-2003, 06:06 PM

Jeez , Im sorry... /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

07-09-2003, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
[ QUOTE ]
that's not really a fair thing to say about athiests. just because we do not believe in a god does not mean that we run around killing people in hopes that we do not get caught. athiests still believe in rules and society, just not in a "supreme being" anarchists are the ones who do not belive in having and orgainzed society. i prefer to live my life for myself and not for some fairy tale

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I don't think you go around killing people. You guys are getting the wrong idea out of what I was saying.

If there is no God, then ultimately there really is no such thing as "good" or "evil", it's just a cultural trend of what is "good" or "evil" at the time.

Really Hitler was only wrong because our society said so, not because he was wrong in the true sense of the word.

Without God there is no absolutes, which means the words "good" and "evil", "right" and "wrong" are relative words and only comparable to what the soceity at that particular time thinks is "right" or "wrong".

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that just as your anger did not result in punching another driver, the dirty deed does not result in lust. Perhaps we need a better definition of lust????

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just trying to make a comparison. You're just trying to go through every word I say to try to find some contradiction.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that just as your anger did not result in punching another driver, the dirty deed does not result in lust.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also put my anger under control. The bible says to think the best of every situation before judging. I am assuming the other driver didn't see me.

If you really want me to help you battle sexual lust let me know . But if you're just trying to "catch me" then I'm not wasting my time. There are many other ways to spend my time. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you want to know what lust is read the rest of James 1. Just keep reading the chapter your in and you'll have your defenition.

 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


[ QUOTE ]
dirty deed does not result in lust.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin

[/ QUOTE ]

The bible says your lust brought about the dirty deed.
There is your defenition! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

well you see its not fair at all...when an athiest says the slightest little thing about how a christian is wasting his life believing in a book that hasnt been proven, everyone jumps up and makes a catastrophy, but when a christian says all athiests kill, its no problem...im not talking about you, but everyone...i think it is really unfair how atheists are being treated like [*%#*%*#] just for not believing in something a christian does, its not like you can help what you believe in deep down, its just a part of your personality i guess.....its not the religion that makes the person , its the person that makes himself..just because a person doesnt believe in god doesnt meen hes an ***, or any less of a person then a religious person,.....i disagree with atheists who make fun of christians, but then again christians make fun of atheists, so their not better...were all people, our believes shouldnt matter..when i meet a person, i dont say "hey im alex, do you believe in god?" it doesnt matter, he would still be the same person wether he did, or didnt.

07-09-2003, 06:54 PM

and IMO a person is a person, no matter what religion you follow, christina, jewish, dont believe in god...whats the difference? were all people, just cause you believe in god doesnt meen your a better person, last time i checked Hitler believed in god...and then thomas jefferson was atheist, but that doesnt matter, because you are a person who is controlled by your own brain and emotions, not by your believes...there is no point in trying to brain wash each other, cause its obvious no one is going to change anyone, we all believe what we believe in , its just the way we are NOT ONE OF US IS MORE RIGHT THEN THE OTHER, EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO THEIR OPINION AND BELIEVES, and whatever those are does not autmatically meen your a bad or good person.

Venom

07-09-2003, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but when a christian says all athiests kill, its no problem...

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't say all atheists kill; he said you have no absolutes. Therefore there is no good or evil, so saying killing is bad is just a matter of opinion.

[ QUOTE ]
were all people, our believes shouldnt matter..when i meet a person, i dont say "hey im alex, do you believe in god?" it doesnt matter, he would still be the same person wether he did, or didnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right, people should not act like they are better than anyone else. But it does matter if you believe in Christ, and they should preach this.

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but when a christian says all athiests kill, its no problem...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude you're really making a mountain out of a mole hill.

It was just an example. Nothing more. I never said all atheists kill, I said that being an atheists means that there is no absolute good or evil. That's it. You're making too much of the example I gave.

[ QUOTE ]
i think it is really unfair how atheists are being treated like [*%#*%*#] just for not believing in something a christian does, its not like you can help what you believe in deep down, its just a part of your personality i guess.....its

[/ QUOTE ]

/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I haven't treated you like crap. This was a poll for Christians anyway. You put your opinion in and expected no one to reply? You knew you were entering the hornets nest bro. If you don't want to get stung stay out of the hive. If you don't want to hear about Christianity stay out of the posts.

[ QUOTE ]
were all people, our believes shouldnt matter..when i meet a person, i dont say "hey im alex, do you believe in god?" it doesnt matter, he would still be the same person wether he did, or didnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no. I'm a different person because of my relationship to Christ. Much different actually. When I meet someone I don't ask them if they believe in God right away, and I have friends who don't believe in God. Those types of things come from getting to know someone. Same with finding out about what career a person has, what they like, etc. You find that out as you go. You don't know squat about a person through small talk.

Beliefs do matter, because what you believe affects everything about your life.

Venom

07-09-2003, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and whatever those are does not autmatically meen your a bad or good person.

[/ QUOTE ]
Correct. Were all sinners, non-are good but God:

Romans 3:1-18
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose ****ation is just. 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

[ QUOTE ]
cause its obvious no one is going to change anyone, we all believe what we believe in.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just flat out wrong. Your using your failures, and saying it's the same for us. Its not.

Here is a good article, here. (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative8-15-2000.asp)

This part sums that up:

[ QUOTE ]
"I've tried arguing with a scientist before, it's pointless."

Does this mean that your own limited experience should be normative for us all? Respectfully, I'm not surprised at your lack of success if this letter illustrates your general way of arguing, that is, unsupported assertions and (as will be shown below) self-refuting statements.

"No matter what you say to these people their beliefs aren't going to change any more than yours are."

Actually, our experience is different from yours. Some of our staff scientists and board members themselves are scientists who did change their minds, which means a fundamental change of axioms. And we have hundreds of letters on file of many others. It shows the fallacy of basing too much on a single person's experience. In fact, although we have plenty of experience to the contrary, our position is not based on experience but on biblical commands such as:

2 Corinthians 10:5:

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true.

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
last time i checked Hitler believed in god...and then thomas jefferson was atheist

[/ QUOTE ]

Hitler believed in whiping out the weaker species to make room for the newer more superior one. What does that remind you of.



Thomas Jefferson believe in God. He was not an atheist. The founding fathers of this country built the US on the bible. Like it or not.

07-09-2003, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
[ QUOTE ]
but when a christian says all athiests kill, its no problem...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude you're really making a mountain out of a mole hill.

It was just an example. Nothing more. I never said all atheists kill, I said that being an atheists means that there is no absolute good or evil. That's it. You're making too much of the example I gave.

[ QUOTE ]
i think it is really unfair how atheists are being treated like [*%#*%*#] just for not believing in something a christian does, its not like you can help what you believe in deep down, its just a part of your personality i guess.....its

[/ QUOTE ]

/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I haven't treated you like crap. This was a poll for Christians anyway. You put your opinion in and expected no one to reply? You knew you were entering the hornets nest bro. If you don't want to get stung stay out of the hive. If you don't want to hear about Christianity stay out of the posts.

[ QUOTE ]
were all people, our believes shouldnt matter..when i meet a person, i dont say "hey im alex, do you believe in god?" it doesnt matter, he would still be the same person wether he did, or didnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no. I'm a different person because of my relationship to Christ. Much different actually. When I meet someone I don't ask them if they believe in God right away, and I have friends who don't believe in God. Those types of things come from getting to know someone. Same with finding out about what career a person has, what they like, etc. You find that out as you go. You don't know squat about a person through small talk.

Beliefs do matter, because what you believe affects everything about your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I said that being an atheists means that there is no absolute good or evil" well thats the thing though, people who dont believe in god have just as good morals as people who do, its just the comeandsince type morals, and the law type morals, instead of the bible...yes you are a strict christian that really does follow religion, but your one in a thousand, i dont understand this, why do people even bother calling themselves strict christians and say that they are strict believers in god, and jesus loves them and all that, when they only go to church once year? if even that....saying "god bless" you when someone sneezes doesnt make you religious, i believe that there is no god, this does not make me a crappy person, or a worst person then anyone else, infact my personality would be the exact same as it would be if i did...infact i have a few friends that used to believe and now dont, they are still the exact same people with the exact same morals, only they dont go to church on sundays...and btw im not an atheist in the sence that i just refuse to believe in anything, ill believe it when i see it.

07-09-2003, 07:14 PM

u meen to tell me you have never heard rumors about thomas jefferson being an atheist? just because the constitution was founded around the bible doesnt meen anything, he was a true leader and would of based it around anything to get people to follow it, especially back then when atheism almost unheard of.

Adam Knowlden

07-09-2003, 08:05 PM

You are simply wrong.

Jefferson was not an atheist by any stretch.

 "The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty...students' perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands." Thomas Jefferson 

[ QUOTE ]
just because the constitution was founded around the bible doesnt meen anything, he was a true leader and would of based it around anything to get people to follow it, especially back then when atheism almost unheard of.

[/ QUOTE ]

It must have been one huge consiperacy then.

"The secret of my success? It is simple. It is found in the Bible." George Washington Carver

"It is impossible to enslave mentally or socially a Bible-reading people. The principles of the Bible are the groundwork of human freedom." Horace Greeley

"The existence of the Bible is a book for the people. It's the greatest benefit the human race has ever experienced. Every attempt to belittle it is a crime against humanity." Immanuel Kant

"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man." Abraham Lincoln

"The Bible has been the Magna Charta of the poor and the oppressed. The human race is not in a position to dispense with it." Thomas Huxley

"The Bible is no mere book, but it's a living creature with a power that conquers all who oppose it." Napoleon

"The Bible is...as necessary to spiritual life as breath is to natural life. There is nothing more essential to our lives than the Word of God." Jack Hayford

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." George Washington

"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people...so great is my veneration of the Bible that the earlier my children begin to read, the more confident will be my hope that they will prove useful citizens in their country and respectful members of society." John Adams

"A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know the price of rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved." Benjamin Franklin

"That Book (the Bible) is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson

"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty...students' perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands." Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed." Patrick Henry

"If we will not be governed by God, then we will be ruled by tyrants." William Penn

"Bible reading is an education in itself." Lord Tennyson

"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history." .... "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily." Sir Isaac Newton

"The New Testament is the very best book that ever was or ever will be known in the world." Charles Dickens

"The whole hope of human progress is suspended on the ever growing influence of the Bible." W.H. Seward

"The Bible was written in tears, and to tears it yields its best treasures." A.W. Tozer

"It is clear that there must be difficulties for us in a revelation such as the Bible. If someone were to hand me a book that was as simple to me as the multiplication table, and say, 'This is the Word of God. In it He has revealed His whole will and wisdom,' I would shake my head and say, 'I cannot believe it; that is too easy to be a perfect revelation of infinite wisdom.' There must be, in any complete revelation of God's mind and will and character and being, things hard for the beginner to understand; and the wisest and best of us are but beginners." R.A. Torrey

"My advice to Sunday Schools no matter what their denomination is: Hold fast to the Bible as the sheet anchor of your liberties; write its precepts in your heart, and practice them in your lives. To the influence of this Book we are indebted for the progress made in true civilization and to this we must look as our guide in the future. 'Righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people (Proverbs 14:34)'." Ulysses S. Grant

"At this time I both read and studied all kinds of literature: cosmography, histories, chronicles, and philosophy and other arts , to which our Lord opened my mind unmistakably to the fact that it was possible to navigate from here to the Indies, and He evoked in me the will for the execution of it; and with this fire I came to Your Highnesses. All those who heard of my plan disregarded it mockingly and with laughter. All the sciences of which I spoke were of no profit to me nor the authorities in them; only in Your Highnesses my faith, and my stay. Who would doubt that this light did not come from the Holy Spirit, anyway as far as I am concerned, which comforted with rays of marvelous clarity and with its Holy and Sacred Scriptures." Christopher Columbus

"All that we hear and read should be measured for accuracy by the standard of the Bible and the 'Holy Ghost filter'." Betty Miller