Muscle Soreness

[Fahsy]

Is it good or bad for your muscles to be sore a day or two days after your workout? Obviously the first time any of us ever lifted weights most of us were extremely sore for at least 3-4 days. Progressively after almost 4 years of lifting weights it takes very intense training and supersets to get just a small amout of muslce soreness the next day. It seems like my muscles are just get more resistant to the workload (which is good cause I am going up in weight). Anyway, back to my question, should I aim to make my muscles sore each time I lift?

[PiZ56]

it really doesnt matter. soreness isn't an indication that you did something amazing, its more of a satisfaction thing.

[Bluenose]

Some say no, some say yes.

Personally I like the sore muscles the next day. While it may not necessarily be an indicator of growth, it does let me know that I pushed them beyond their comfort zone which will result in growth. I think that's the same thing.

Each time you switch an exercise in your routine I would expect that sore muscles would be expected. I just put in a new single leg squat this week and my legs are just getting back to normal today, this is day 4. OUCH!

Something I wonder about, if a muscle is sore at a particular point, say quads near the knee joint but not mid-quad, does that give an indication of which portion of the muscle (or tendons maybe)is getting hit the hardest?

Jeff.

[Fahsy]

I agree Bluenose, muscle soreness does give me satisfaction. Generally my legs stay sore the longest if I change up my routine. I found it the hardest to make my bicpes sore no matter how hard I blast them in the gym.

[ballyouup]

My legs stay sore the longest too, I love the feeling of soreness the next day. I cant seem to get my triceps sore as much anymore.

[Tyler Durden]

DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness), as mentioned before, is not a determining factor of a great workout. You can still grow without getting sore muscles from intense workouts.

[dekkajay02]

DOMS is still up in the air as to if it matters for significant growth.

[renob]

DOMS does not idicate growth or a good workout. judge by how good a workout you got and how good you ate the next week if you grew a little bit

[Rewesh]

"My muscles feel fine after that intense workout yesterday"
Doesn't make sense :|.
Muscles grow from you basically tearing the muscle fibres, which in turn leads to pain untill they heal. Thus, if you're experiencing no pain then your muscle fibres aren't injured and they won't be repaired which leads to growth. Simple as pie.

[Sniper99]

[ QUOTE ]
Rewesh said:
"My muscles feel fine after that intense workout yesterday"
Doesn't make sense :|.
Muscles grow from you basically tearing the muscle fibres, which in turn leads to pain untill they heal. Thus, if you're experiencing no pain then your muscle fibres aren't injured and they won't be repaired which leads to growth. Simple as pie.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort of... but it also has to do not with just the muscles but with tendons and whatnot. By your hypothesis, not stretching would improve muscle growth, because I am more sore when I don't stretch :P. Fact is though that a lot of soreness comes from range of motion, the tendons, etc. I still think some soreness is the indicator of a hard workout (not necessarily a good one) but I don't think its much more.

[Bluenose]

[ QUOTE ]
Sniper99 said:
... I still think some soreness is the indicator of a hard workout (not necessarily a good one) but I don't think its much more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, not necessarily a good one. You could do some not so good damage and be sore.

This can be argued for a long time and not everyone will agree.

Personal opinion:

Hard workout + eating + sleeping = growth.
Nobody disagrees with that, generally, assuming all is in good form.

When the eating and sleeping are in line then;

Hard workout the day before = DOMS.
Not always the case depending on a few variables but generally true.

So, if all of my hardworkouts result in DOMS and all the other factors are in place then I can use the DOMS to tell me that my workouts are also in place.

Therefore, in a round-about way,
DOMS = indication of muscle damage (therein lies the argument)and therefore likely growth, even though it is not directly an indicator of growth.

The only true indicator is really the resultant measurable growth.

I think that argument might keep all camps happy.

Jeff.

[wasabiz]

i think we should sticky post Lams post on why DOMS doesn't mean squat for awhile, it seems to mean LOTS of ppl ask about muscle soreness, i'v given the link at least 2 times already and i can't seem to find it anymore but when i find it i'll link it here

[Adam Knowlden]

To say DOMS is useless or not a good indicator of muscle fiber stimulation is a bold statement in my opinion.

There may very well be a vital connection between DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) with both hypertrophy and hyperplasia.

There are two primary mechanisms in which new fibers can be formed. First large fibers can split into two or more smaller fibers and secondly satellite cells can be activated.

Satellite cells are myogenic stem cells which are involved in skeletal muscle regeneration. When you stretch or intensely work a muscle fiber, satellite cells are activated. Satellite cells can undergo mitosis or cell division and give rise to new myoblastic cells.

These immature muscle cells can either fuse with a pre-existing muscle fiber causing that fiber to get bigger (hypertrophy), or these myoblastic cells can fuse with each other to form a new fiber. This is one of the ways to achieve hyperplasia!

The most acceptable theory of the cause of DOMS (really know one knows exactly what causes DOMS, although we have very good theories. But it is probably a combination of factors, some of which we are not yet aware of!), is that DOMS is caused by eccentric muscle contractions in which muscle fibers are lengthened as force is applied to them.

The two leading factors in the activation of satellite cells are extreme stretching and intense exercise. Combine these two and you have a lethal combination capable of producing hyperplasia!

There could be a vital link between DOMS and hyperplasia. Only time will tell as our advancement in cell understanding increases.

My main point is this. For every bit of knowledge we accumulate about the cell, the more we discover we know practically nothing! Indeed the cell is a masterpiece design! For this reason I think it is an error in logic to totally eliminate possible hypertrophy/hyperplasia scenarios at the cellular level.

Furthermore,

Smith, L.L. Causes of delayed onset muscle soreness and the impact on athletic performance: a review. J. Appl. Sport Sci. Res. 6(3):135–141.

discovered that Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) generally occurs between 24 and 72 hours after a bout of unaccustomed exercise that involves eccentric muscle action. In this review, a variety of aerobic and anaerobic activities are described emphasizing the eccentric component.

In other words shocking your muscles during the eccentric range of motion is probably the leading factor in producing DOMs.

More studies have shown that eccentric contraction is one of the leading causes of DOMS.

Dierking, Jenny K., Bemben, Michael G. 1998: Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. Strength and Conditioning: Vol. 20, No. 4, pp. 44–50.

[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of petrassage massage immediately post and 24 hrs postexercise on delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), and to measure extremity volumes to determine whether petrassage altered the inflammatory response to eccentric exercise.


[/ QUOTE ]

More studies have concluded the factors for causing DOMS:

CONNOLLY, DECLAN A.J., SAYERS, STEPHEN P., McHUGH, MALACHY P. 2003: Treatment and Prevention of Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 17, No. 1, pp. 197–208.


[ QUOTE ]
Muscle soreness and damage often occur after selective exercise routines. This soreness typically peaks 24–48 hours after the exercise and subsides within 96 hours. The severity of damage and soreness vary as a function of several factors. For the practitioner, the most obvious would be familiarity with the exercise and the intensity at which it is performed . In general, more damage occurs with higher intensity and unfamiliar actions . Additional factors such as muscle stiffness, contraction velocity, fatigue, and angle of contraction have also been shown to play a role. However, these factors are more difficult to control in the field environment.


[/ QUOTE ]

Eccentric contraction, intensity levels, angles, shock regimes all play a role in DOMs. All of these factors have been staples of the body builder's regular gym routines. To say there DOMS has no connection to stimulated growth via hypertrophy or hyperplasia or that it is no indication that one or both have been stimulated is a very premature notion. The science of hypertrophy is still in its extreme infancy.

Is DOMS useless? If training with higher intensity, emphasising the negative, shock regimes, a wide variety of angular contractions is useless we are all in trouble. Studies have shown that these are the best factors for building mass and consequently the leading causes of DOMS.

I'll let you decide. My personal theory is that DOMS itself does not cause growth, but is an indicator that the proper stimulus for growth has occured.

Many of you have testified hardcore workouts result in DOMS.
In my view...nuff said!

NOSAKA, KAZUNORI, NEWTON, MIKE. 2002: Repeated Eccentric Exercise Bouts Do Not Exacerbate Muscle Damage and Repair. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 16, No. 1, pp. 117–122.

[ QUOTE ]
Delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS) is an outcome of eccentric exercise in which muscles are lengthened while producing force, and is a reflection of muscle damage and inflammation (2, 3, 5, 19). DOMS often develops after resistance training, especially when the intensity and volume of training are increased, the order of exercise is changed, or a new training regimen is performed (1, 2, 5).

[/ QUOTE ]

Appell, H.-J., J.M.C. Soares, and J.A.R. Duarte. Exercise, muscle damage and fatigue. Sports Med. 13:108–115. 1992. [PubMed Citation]

Bär, P.R.D., J.C. Reijneveld, J.H.J. Wokke, S.C.J.M. Jacobs, and A.L. Bootsma. Muscle damage induced by exercise: Nature, prevention and repair. In: Muscle Damage. S. Salmons, ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 1997.

Buckwalter, J.A. Effects of early motion on healing of musculoskeletal tissues. Hand Clin. 12:13–24. 1996. [PubMed Citation]

Clarkson, P.M., K. Nosaka, and B. Braun. Muscle function after exercise-induced muscle damage and rapid adaptation. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 24:512–520. 1992. [PubMed Citation]

Chen, T.C., and S.S. Hsieh. The effects of repeated maximal voluntary isokinetic eccentric exercise on recovery from muscle damage. Res. Q. Exerc. Sports. 71:260–266. 2000. [PubMed Citation]

Ebbeling, C.B., and P.M. Clarkson. Muscle adaptation prior to recovery following eccentric exercise. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 60:26–31. 1990. [PubMed Citation]

Smith, L.L. Acute inflammation: The underlying mechanism in delayed onset muscle soreness?. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 23:542–551. 1991. [PubMed Citation]

Smith, L.L., M.G. Fulmer, D. Holbert, M.R. McCammon, J.A. Houmard, D.D. Frazer, E. Nsien, and G. Israel. The impact of a repeated bout of eccentric exercise on muscular strength, muscle soreness and creatine kinase. Br. J. Sports Med. 28:267–271. 1994.

[ccg]

I know for a fact if I don't get sore then I did not get a good workout.

Soreness to me means everything.

[Tyler Durden]

Once again, Old School has schooled us.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
Once again, Old School has schooled us.

[/ QUOTE ]

/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif Just educating bro. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif I'm not trying to disprove anyone! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just to give the best to the hardcore members of this site. There are a lot of false doctrines in this world. This sites members are smart enough to see through them. If I can help I always will.

But when it comes to hypertrophy we have to look at all the options and weigh them. To say something is for absolute certain in a region of study as infant as DOMS is a example of a subject in which all the evidence needs weighed before claiming.

[ QUOTE ]
Soreness to me means everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many others agree with these types of statements. DOMS is also a big mental factor in learing to train your mind to push for new levels of intensity. If nothing else it is a great mental motivator!

[teletummy]

great post.

*bump*

[Blux]

Muscle Soreness - new (scientific?) discoveries? Are there any?

considering that this is an old old topic i wonder if anything new was found out on the subject. i know there are tons of DOMS threads but thisone is linked from sticky so...

To quote Old School
[ QUOTE ]

The most acceptable theory...

The two leading factors in the activation of satellite cells are extreme stretching and intense exercise. Combine these two and you have a lethal combination capable of producing hyperplasia!

There could be a vital link between DOMS and hyperplasia. Only time will tell as our advancement in cell understanding increases.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, anthing new to add on the subject? should I look at some other articles etc? Links would be appreciated.

[Big_T]

Should one still workout if their muscles are still sore? I lift Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and with the exception of Monday my muscles are sore for every workout. Should I wait until they aren’t anymore?

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Should one still workout if their muscles are still sore? I lift Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and with the exception of Monday my muscles are sore for every workout. Should I wait until they aren’t anymore?

[/ QUOTE ]

DOMS will without a doubt decrease your performance. However, that is a good shocking method. Read this thread, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/sho...;page=0#1060943 (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1060943&an=0&page=0#1060 943)