Question about God and free-will... [Archive]

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ZEN MASHEENE

06-17-2003, 11:37 PM

Being that this is a very religiously oriented site I figured I should ask here... The theological knowledge is greater then what I can ask my teachers, etc. Just to let you know, I'm agnostic.

Now, I plan to major in philosphy in college, and I constantly read about it now, and one of the major facets of philosophy is free will.

Now, to cut it short, here's my question:

If God knows everything, including everything we ever do... Why would God place us on Earth? Earth is supposed to be a "test" to determine whether or not we go to heaven or hell... But, God already knows whether or not we're going to hell, so why does God do it?

BTW, since God knows everything, you don't have free will. The illusion is there, but you can never make a choice if your entire path is already known. You may think you can turn left or right, but if you turn right, you never could have turned left, you only perceived that could could go left. Picture a leaf floating in the wind, it can go left or right. The leaf "thinks" it's going where it wants, but we know that the wind determines that. As long as the leaf's direction coincides with it's "will," this illusion is preserved.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read this.

iDunno

06-17-2003, 11:39 PM

Wow that deep.. better put then my fate thread... responses will be intresting to see..

benpl3

06-17-2003, 11:42 PM

Umm...ive thought of that...but what i came up with of why God lets us choose..i figure its because he would rather have someone choose to worship and follow him instead of being made to..if they didnt have a choice..it probably wouldnt be as gratifying if you will..im prolly wrong..but its just my idea of why he would..i dunno if it makes sense either..and im sure theres tons of scripture that venom,yu, or oldschool will give you..but thats my opinion..tel me if im worng..

RichW

06-17-2003, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If God knows everything, including everything we ever do... Why would God place us on Earth? Earth is supposed to be a "test" to determine whether or not we go to heaven or hell... But, God already knows whether or not we're going to hell, so why does God do it?

BTW, since God knows everything, you don't have free will. The illusion is there, but you can never make a choice if your entire path is already known. You may think you can turn left or right, but if you turn right, you never could have turned left, you only perceived that could could go left. Picture a leaf floating in the wind, it can go left or right. The leaf "thinks" it's going where it wants, but we know that the wind determines that. As long as the leaf's direction coincides with it's "will," this illusion is preserved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am no Bible scholar or theologan. I certainly don't understand all the intracacies of God. So this is a feeble attempt to answer your questions.
First and foremost, God loves us. We are his children. He knows the final outcome but he has to let us live our lives and use the freewill he gave us. God could very easily force us to bow down before him and worship him. He could make us love him but is that love? He wants us to choose to love him. I think of it in terms of my own child. She wants to ride her bike without training wheels. I know she is going to fall. Do I just not let her do it? No, I have to let her try. I have to give her the opportunity to fail so she can learn. Thats what God does for us. He knows what the outcome will be but because he truly loves us he lets us go and make our own decisions. Some will run to him others will not.
The really amazing thing is that he knew before the foundations of time that his beloved would hang on a cross as a sacrifice for us. He himself would have to be tortured and die so that we could be with him if we chose to.
That is love!

**DONOTDELETE**

06-17-2003, 11:54 PM

ZEN MASHEENE

06-18-2003, 12:01 AM

"Umm...ive thought of that...but what i came up with of why God lets us choose..i figure its because he would rather have someone choose to worship and follow him instead of being made to..if they didnt have a choice..it probably wouldnt be as gratifying if you will..im prolly wrong..but its just my idea of why he would..i dunno if it makes sense either..and im sure theres tons of scripture that venom,yu, or oldschool will give you..but thats my opinion..tel me if im worng.. "

But God already knows whether or no you will worship God. I understand what you mean about true conviction and all. But God already knows whether you would believe or not.

"Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am no Bible scholar or theologan. I certainly don't understand all the intracacies of God. So this is a feeble attempt to answer your questions.
First and foremost, God loves us. We are his children. He knows the final outcome but he has to let us live our lives and use the freewill he gave us. God could very easily force us to bow down before him and worship him. He could make us love him but is that love? He wants us to choose to love him. I think of it in terms of my own child. She wants to ride her bike without training wheels. I know she is going to fall. Do I just not let her do it? No, I have to let her try. I have to give her the opportunity to fail so she can learn. Thats what God does for us. He knows what the outcome will be but because he truly loves us he lets us go and make our own decisions. Some will run to him others will not.
The really amazing thing is that he knew before the foundations of time that his beloved would hang on a cross as a sacrifice for us. He himself would have to be tortured and die so that we could be with him if we chose to.
That is love! "

Why would God need anything to ever love God? God knows everything, whether or not you live God, as well as the pleasure derived from such love. God knows it so well and so perfectly there is no need to ever experience it again, God's memory is perfect, the feeling never fades.

Sorry Yu, but you didn't answer my question at all. Again, believing and accepting Christ, things God will already know, so what's the point of putting us here?

CoLDTuRKeY

06-18-2003, 12:07 AM

But if God is all knowing, wouldn't he already have known that Adam AND Eve (don't pin it all on the man dawg! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) were going to be tempted and eat from the tree? Then what was the point? Why give a test that you know they will fail?
Sorry if this was answered already...

**DONOTDELETE**

06-18-2003, 12:09 AM

benpl3

06-18-2003, 12:14 AM

sadly..i couldnt go to the secodn link...my dads stupid norton family edition balh blah blah thing is being stupid and wont let me..so..if you would please..explain what the one that wasnt a post on the site says please...thanks

RichW

06-18-2003, 12:16 AM

It's kind of like saying " why have children if you know they might cause you heartache or will disobey you"?
God doesn't need our love he wants it. He wants us to love him. God made us as an expression of love. Just as we make children as an expression of love. We can't force our children to love us. We raise them as best we can and hope they do. We can't understand God completely, That is where faith comes in. God has reasons we can only try to understand in our limited capacity. I think the questions have been answered as best as they possibly can be.

**DONOTDELETE**

06-18-2003, 12:36 AM

benpl3

06-18-2003, 12:45 AM

haha...thanks yu..i didnt read it all yet..i saved it cause as usual..my attention span is very small...thanks again

Adam Knowlden

06-18-2003, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But if God is all knowing, wouldn't he already have known that Adam AND Eve (don't pin it all on the man dawg! ) were going to be tempted and eat from the tree? Then what was the point? Why give a test that you know they will fail?
Sorry if this was answered already...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey guys these are all really great questions. You guys are deep thinkers! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif I like that. You don't just believe things because people tell you too, you question. The Lord never asks us to check our brain in at the door when we accept Him in our lives.

God is not the author of confusion.

But I believe one of you said it best, "God wants us to love Him freely".

Even if He knows the outcome that doesn't mean He is going to interfere with Adam and Eves will. He made His commandment clear to Adam. They had God's Word:

 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Adam and Eve knew the consequences.

But they chose to ignore God's Word and listen to satan:

 And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?



Satan's first line of attack is always to get people to compromise and doubt the Word of God. If he can do that, he's got you. "Are you sure God really said that? Yea, hath God said?"

The bible says the Word is our sword, and the devil can't stand against it. If we weild it and stay true to it, we can lacerate the devil everytime. If we keep it in our sheath, satan can attack us at will.

Here eve confirms she knows the truth:

 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.



But again satan gets her to compromise:

 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


The she falls right into the trap described in first John.

 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


You see satan has been using the same old tricks for 6000 years.

1. Compromise the word.

2. Feed your lust.

Here we see Eve falling right into it:

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,

the lust of the flesh

and that it was pleasant to the eyes,

and the lust of the eyes,

and a tree to be desired to make one wise,

and the pride of life

 The result... 

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

You are correct God knew what would happen.

 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


As hard as this is for us to comprehend, from eternity past, God knew that Adam would fall, and for eternity past, Christ decided he would lay down his life.

Why would He lay down His life?

 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


Christ said the best gift anyone could offer to prove their love was laying down there life for a friend. That is exactly what He did. He proved His love for us. All He asks in return is to accept His death.

We know this to be true. Many brave soldiers have died for us, for the love of providing freedom for their countries, future generations and their families. Laying down your life for another is true love.

God has a certain trait about Him. This is why He's so cool,and the only God worthy of even wanting to serve.

He can make a bad situation turn out for good. We see this throughout the entire bible.

Even though we mess up, God can reach down in the pit and pull us out.

God took a situation that was worthy of death, and turned it into a blessing! We have a God that, even though we don't deserve it, would take his only Son, let him die for us, and through Him Bless anyone that recieves Him.

Venom

06-18-2003, 02:44 AM

Great stuff guys. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
If God knows everything, including everything we ever do... Why would God place us on Earth? Earth is supposed to be a "test" to determine whether or not we go to heaven or hell... But, God already knows whether or not we're going to hell, so why does God do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I will give you a very straight forward answer:

Psalms 115:1-3
1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake. 2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? 3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Because he wanted to.

Isaiah 29:15-16
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? 16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Isaiah 45:5-10
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

It's his creation, his rules, his work, and his clay. He does as he pleases with it.

I know if I were the Most High, the idea you set forth, would be dismissed immediately. I see no reason why I would even consider that.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if He knows the outcome that doesn't mean He is going to interfere with Adam and Eves will. He made His commandment clear to Adam. They had God's Word:

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, he gives them free choice. And he knows what they will choose, because he knows everything, but he lets them make the choice.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God place us on Earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isaiah 45:11-19
11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. 15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Again, because that's his choice. He made the earth to be inhabited, and has put inhabitants there. He knows what, why, and how he is doing what he does.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would God need anything to ever love God? God knows everything, whether or not you live God, as well as the pleasure derived from such love. God knows it so well and so perfectly there is no need to ever experience it again, God's memory is perfect, the feeling never fades.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically what your saying is, God is bored, and just going through the motions with this. This is incorrect:

Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 11:33-44
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35 Jesus wept.

Hebrews 3:7-19
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

1 John 4:7-13
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Psalms 59:8-17
8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.

Hebrews 4:11-16
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Philippians 2:12-13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Psalms 18:20-28
25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; 26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

Psalms 94:9-11
9 He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see? 10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know? 11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

I can go on and on, God has all the emotions and feelings you can think of. And you will not find one verse that agrees with your statement that God is bored.

I will add more on my next post.

President Wilson

06-18-2003, 02:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Even if He knows the outcome that doesn't mean He is going to interfere with Adam and Eves will. He made His commandment clear to Adam. They had God's Word:

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point. As bjjcloud stated. God does know everything. And we have the benefit of that knowledge as Adam and Eve did. He has already allowed us to know exactly what will occur based on our decisions. It isn't guess work, its truth, and we have the benefit of that truth.

God not only give us a choice. But he sets it before us.

Deuteronomy 30. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

He not only gives us the choice. But he councels us on it as well. With an extremely easy decision

He finishes by saying

[ QUOTE ]
therefore choose life

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like an easy choice.
[ QUOTE ]
But, God already knows whether or not we're going to hell, so why does God do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

The real question is, why choose hell? Especially when he lays this before you

 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 

Its all laid out

Venom

06-18-2003, 03:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But, God already knows whether or not we're going to hell, so why does God do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I will add some more reasons.

Righteous Judge 

Genesis 18:23-33
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: 28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. 30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. 32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. 33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

2 Timothy 4: 8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Romans 3:1-18
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

Revelation 19:11-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Lord is a righteous judge! And he tells us how he judges in his word. And he cannot lie:

Romans 2:1-16
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

2 Corinthians 11:5-15
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Timothy 4:9-15
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

God will judge justlily, according to what you do. By what we do on earth.

He also give us ample time to repent:

Revelation 2:18-29
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Here is a post for more on Gods' long suffering, righteous judgment, and mercy:

[ QUOTE ]
member said:
So, tell me if I am wrong, when Jesus returns it will be the end of war and the start of the 1000 year kingdom. Why didnt he do all this first time round?

[/ QUOTE ]
Very good question. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif There are a lot of reasons why, but I will give one for now:

Genesis 15:12-16
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

You'll see God works this way throughout scripture. He gives people ample time to repent, and to fill there time with what God has given them.

So when did Christ come?

Galatians 4:1-7
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Christ came in the fullness of time of the Jews. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Christ discusses this in a parable:

Luke 20:9-19
9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. 10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. 11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty. 12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out. 13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? 16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. 17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? 18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

This does not mean the Jews have fallen completely. But this started the beginning of a new dispensation, the age of grace. And time of the Holy Ghost! The promise through Christ. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Now here is another question, when will Christ come back?

Romans 11:1-32
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Eliashow he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

When the fullness of the gentles comes in! Than Christ will come back, after this dispensation has been completed. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And you will see this same pattern in revelation as well. Now one last thing:

2 Peter 3:9-10
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The Lord wants all to be saved, so he is long suffering. But he will not delay his coming. So be prepared, as a good and faithful servant.

Luke 12:41-53
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are You starting see how Holy God is?

I love this verse, adds more to the above discussion:

Psalms 106: 1-48
1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. 2 Who can utter the mighty acts of the LORD? who can shew forth all his praise? 3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. 4 Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; 5 That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.
6 We have sinned with our fathers, we have committed iniquity, we have done wickedly. 7 Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea. 8 Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known. 9 He rebuked the Red sea also, and it was dried up: so he led them through the depths, as through the wilderness. 10 And he saved them from the hand of him that hated them, and redeemed them from the hand of the enemy. 11 And the waters covered their enemies: there was not one of them left. 12 Then believed they his words; they sang his praise.
13 They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel: 14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert. 15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul. 16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD. 17 The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan, and covered the company of Abiram. 18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked. 19 They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image. 20 Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass. 21 They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt; 22 Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea. 23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them. 24 Yea, they despised the pleasant F310 land, they believed not his word: 25 But murmured in their tents, and hearkened not unto the voice of the LORD. 26 Therefore he lifted up his hand against them, to overthrow them in the wilderness: 27 To overthrow their seed also among the nations, and to scatter them in the lands. 28 They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead. 29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them. 30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. 31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore. 32 They angered him also at the waters of strife, so that it went ill with Moses for their sakes: 33 Because they provoked his spirit, so that he spake unadvisedly with his lips.
34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them: 35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works. 36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. 37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, 38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions. 40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance. 41 And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. 42 Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. 43 Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity. 44 Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry: 45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. 46 He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives. 47 Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. 48 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.

You know how rebellious these people were! No nation ever witnessed what they did, and they sacrificed to idols! They committed every possible abomination you can think of, and still he didn't unleash his full wrath.

Lets look at one more example:

Luke 16:19-25
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Hebrews 11:4-31
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

God allows wicked men to enjoy their wickedness for a season. To enjoy his pleasant rain, sun, and goodness.

God is a righteous judge, and on the day of judgment each man and women alike will have no excuse; do not choose to ignore these resources he's blessed you with.

You will be held accountable for them. And there will be no excuses.

Romans 1:19-23
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

CoLDTuRKeY

06-18-2003, 10:36 AM

But how was it Adam's fault that Eve was tempted and gave him the fruit? As far as I've ever hear, Adam didn't really know that she was giving him the fruit of the forbidden tree. Or did he know? Or did he subconciously pretty much figure it out?

RichW

06-18-2003, 10:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But how was it Adam's fault that Eve was tempted and gave him the fruit? As far as I've ever hear, Adam didn't really know that she was giving him the fruit of the forbidden tree. Or did he know? Or did he subconciously pretty much figure it out?

[/ QUOTE ]

He knew because he was right there. He should have said no!

Genesis 3
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

CoLDTuRKeY

06-18-2003, 10:46 AM

Oh, okay. Question answered /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
By the way, I'm honestly not one to believe in the belief of Christians that all human life spawned from one man and one woman, but you guys have really been providing some great, logical answers to the questions we have been giving you. I really appreciate that.

Adam Knowlden

06-18-2003, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! I love when the Lord lays the smack down.

I really believe in heaven when we see God in all His Glory, He's going to marvel that we didn't trust Him more.

Especially His Word.

There are two things Jesus marveled at on earth.

A strong faith and a weak faith.

 5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.


 15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

27 And last of all the woman died also.

28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.

43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.



[ QUOTE ]
but you guys have really been providing some great, logical answers to the questions we have been giving you. I really appreciate that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anytime bro!

ZEN MASHEENE

06-18-2003, 07:20 PM

No, see, all you're responding with is, "The Lord GAVE them choice." But, if the Lord already knows the outcome, it's not a choice. If I drop a frog off a building, I could "give" it the choice to float up, or fall down. Since it falls down, and I know it falls down, it had no choice.

**DONOTDELETE**

06-18-2003, 07:47 PM

benpl3

06-18-2003, 07:59 PM

im not sure if this makes a difference..but i was searching for stuff about free will and crap..and this article struck me as interesting..it kinda is about there being no God or if there is a God. When i finish reading the article about free will..ill post it..if its any good..

DW: Many unbelievers commonly object to the God of the Bible on the basis of ethical "problems" with the character of God as revealed in the Scriptures. Whether they use psalms of imprecation, the slaughter of the Canaanites, the eternal wrath of God on the impenitent, etc ., the central theme is usually the same "Who would want to worship a God like that !" But despite the surface plausibility of the objection, a careful examination of it shows their Achilles attacking our Hector with his bare heel. Far from being the unbeliever's strongest case against the true God, this objection actually reveals the radical futility of unbelief; without God there are no ethical objections to anything .

FT: Although you didn't expressly state the "objective-morality" position of evangelical apologists, you certainly implied it when you said that "without God there are no ethical objections to anything." The fallacy of this position is its failure to recognize that morality is an intellectual abstraction. As such, it is no different from abstractions of tragedy, sorrow, or any of many other abstractions the human mind has formulated from its broad range of experience. Arguing that human intelligence cannot determine if acts are immoral without a god to tell us they are is as illogical as arguing that we cannot tell if events are tragic without a god of tragedy to tell us they are.

DW: Fine, I'll bite. If there is no God, then all the things you mention are in the same meaningless category. Morality, tragedy, and sorrow are equally evanescent. They are all empty sensations created by the chemical reactions of the brain, in turn created by too much pizza the night before. If there is no God, then all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena, like swamp gas over fetid water. This means that we have no reason for assigning truth and falsity to the chemical fizz we call reasoning or right and wrong to the irrational reaction we call morality. If no God, mankind is a set of bi-pedal carbon units of mostly water. And nothing else.

FT: You bit too hard. In equating all human abstractions with "swamp gas over fetid water," you overlook verifiable facts. The human mind can think; swamp gas can't. Human intelligence can evaluate situations and formulate abstractions of beauty, happiness, sorrow, fairness and morality; swamp gas can't. Are these abstractions valid? Well, what IQ level is needed to conceptualize abstractions like beautiful, sad, fair, right or wrong? Can one with an IQ of 100 do it, or must his IQ be infinite? The existence of moral concepts is verifiable; the existence of gods who put such concepts into human minds is unverifiable. Please address this problem.

DW: You missed my challenge. You acknowledge the distinction between human intelligence and swamp gas, but you have no way to account for it. If there is no God, then why is there a distinction between the chemical reactions in your head and elsewhere? Suppose we agreed that the walls of a house are straight. I say there must be a foundation under it -- a precondition for straight walls. Your hypothesis is the house has no foundation at all and doesn't need one. "See, the walls are straight without a foundation." But given your worldview's assumptions, why ? Can you explain how time and chance acting on matter can produce the straight walls of reason and morality?

FT: No, you missed my challenge. You are the asserter, so you must bear the burden of proving your assertion. You have asserted that "without God there are no ethical objections to anything," so I insist that you prove that. You have admitted that human intelligence can formulate abstractions, but you say that " all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena, like swamp gas over fetid water." Prove that please. Can the brain's solution of algebra problems be right? If so, does "God" have to put the right solutions into the brain? If not, can a brain that correctly solves algebra problems correctly solve moral problems? If not, why not? Where did your god get his intelligence?

DW: Since you insist, I'm glad to repeat my argument. If there is no God , then all that exists is time and chance acting on matter. If this is true then the difference between your thoughts and mine correspond to the difference between shaking up a bottle of Mountain Dew and a bottle of Dr. Pepper. You simply fizz atheistically and I fizz theistically. This means that you do not hold to atheism because it is true , but rather because of a series of chemical reactions. Thus, your atheism destroys rationality and morality. Intellectual and moral relativism have long challenged atheistic worldviews. No atheist has successfully addressed this problem, although you are invited to try.

FT: If I fizzed "flat-earthly," and you fizzed "round-earthly," would you argue that you don't hold your view because it's true but "rather because of a series of chemical reactions"? Would your "round-earthism" then destroy rationality and science? There is a truth in the theism-atheism controversy. The fact that no one can establish that truth to everyone's satisfaction doesn't mean the truth doesn't exist. So I'll repeat my challenge. What IQ level is necessary to abstract moral concepts? To discover moral truths? Let's take the Amalekite massacre (1 Sam. 15:2-3). How much intelligence is needed to determine that no morally perfect entity could have ordered the slaughter of children and babies?

DW: "There is truth in the theism-atheism controversy." Amen. You are able to say so because you assume that truth is objective. Again, you bet. But objective truth cannot be validly derived from the premises of your worldview. You are borrowing objective rationality and morality from the Christian worldview in order to attack the rationality and morality of the Christian worldview. There was a moral problem in the Amalekite attack -- Saul was disobedient and didn't kill everything as God instructed. You should have no objection. Given your worldview, there is no moral difference between the Amalekite massacre and a day at the beach. In both cases, all you have is atoms banging around.

FT: If the Amalekite children who were killed with Israelite spears could speak, would they say there was any difference in what happened to them and a day at the beach? You know they would. What IQ level would they need to distinguish the difference? You have evaded the issue long enough, so why don't you tell us how much intelligence is needed to formulate abstractions of beauty, loyalty, justice, etc.? Without a god of beauty, can one validly determine that a sunset is beautiful? If so, why can't one determine that acts are immoral without a god of morality? Truth is objective because of reality, not because some deity arbitrarily decides what truth is.

DW: Well of course, you and the Amalekite children may assert some objective moral distinction between good and evil. But given the basic assumptions of your worldview, neither of you can justify that distinction. On your assumptions , the chance collection of atoms called Jews objected to the Holocaust; the random atoms called Nazis did not. And so what? Given atheism, what is the difference? Do the good atoms wear white hats? Your persevering but irrelevant inquiries about intelligence reveal that you do not yet understand the nature of the problem. Objective and universal standards of reason, morality, and beauty simply cannot exist in your purely material world. You are fighting Christianity with borrowed Christian weapons.

FT: When have I said that "objective morality" exists? It doesn't. To say that objective morality doesn't exist, however, is not to say that morality doesn't exist. Rational processes can validly distinguish "good" from "evil" just as they can validly distinguish happiness from sorrow, but I can't explain in 115 words how this can be done. If you care to debate this in a less confining forum than your "Disputatio" format, then let's do it. Meanwhile, why don't you explain where your objective morality came from? If you say, "From God," then please explain where he came from. No theist has successfully addressed this problem, but you're invited to try. Try to remember that you're the asserter.

DW: If morality is not objective, then it is subjective. If it is subjective, then it is as diverse as five billion subjective states of mind. Such fragmented subjectivity provides no authoritative ethical voice, and hence no morality deserving of the name. Related to this, you must now disclaim "objective rationality" as well as "objective morality," for the two are built on the same foundation -- or rather, in your worldview, not built on the same non-foundation. But if objective rationality does not exist, then your worldview does not permit you to reason for three words in a row, much less 115. The laws of logic are as nonmaterial as the God you so diligently oppose.

FT: Are you arguing that subjectivism cannot determine truth? If so, reality will not support your claim. You keep harping about my worldview, so please address the many problems in your "worldview." Where did "objective" reality come from? From God? Well, where did he come from? How can one determine what "objective" morality is? From the Bible? If so, a lot of subjectivism will be involved in reading and interpreting it. Looking for "objective" morality in the Bible will produce a morality "as diverse as 5 billion subjective states of mind." If not, why not? "Such fragmented subjectivity" will provide "no authoritative ethical voice" and so "no morality deserving of the name." Please address this issue.

DW: Reality doesn't support my claim? Would this be your reality or mine? Would this be subjective or objective reality? If subjective, then I don't think ice cream has bones either. If objective, then you would have to identify (and defend) the authoritative voice through which this reality speaks. Of course, I am arguing (and have shown) that subjectivism destroys truth. The fact that you have in effect embraced subjectivism means that the debate over the existence of God is over, and we are now discussing certain problems that arise from an affirmation of His existence. Having shown that atheism is inescapably false, I am happy to turn to the problems you raise. Next round.

FT: You've been a master of evasion. You assert the existence of "objective" morality, but you have evaded all challenges to prove that it exists. Nothing exists -- not even your god -- simply because it would be nice if it did exist. In your final installment, please address this issue. How do you know that "objective" morality exists? Where did it originate? If you say from God, please prove that God exists. If "objective" morality is revealed in the Bible, it becomes something inseparable from subjective interpretation, so just what is the great advantage that your "worldview" has over mine? If you ignore this issue again, I'm afraid your evasion will be obvious to all.

DW: The proof you seek has been pervasive throughout the debate. I have been pointing to the impossibility of your alternative. The debate over God's existence does not fit in the same category as a debate over the existence of peach jam. The jam may or may not exist, leaving our thought processes unaffected either way. If God does not exist (as this alleged "master of evasion" has pointed out repeatedly above), then our thought processes (yours and mine) are one thing. If He does exist, then they are something else entirely. The content of your affirmations has been atheistic, your unacknowledged presuppositions theistic. This means that, on a fundamental level, you and I agree that He is.

benpl3

06-18-2003, 08:07 PM

ehh..the article ended up sucking..it kinda didnt pinpoint what im trying to find..but ive found some more..so if they are in anyway helpful to explain free-will at all...then ill be sure to post..

Venom

06-18-2003, 09:26 PM

ZEN MASHEENE

06-18-2003, 11:17 PM

A better example is, you can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make him drink. The Lord is showing the direction to go, he is not going to make you choose that direction. Whatever philosophical lie, or vain thought people want to make up. There will be no excuse when they stand before him. "

He showed you a direction... But he already knew whether or not you would accept him, correct? So if guy A accepts him and guy B rejects him, then neither one had a choice, because right there we can see the outcome. Therefore, knowing the outcome BEFORE the choice happens denies that there was ever a choice.

benpl3

06-18-2003, 11:22 PM

ok..so if free-will didnt exist..would you say the world was deterministic or Libertarianistic?

**DONOTDELETE**

06-18-2003, 11:31 PM

CoLDTuRKeY

06-18-2003, 11:41 PM

Its kinda like in the 1st Matrix. The Oracle tells Neo "I'de ask you to sit down, but your not going to anyway." Its kind of strange how much of that movie you could really relate to God and faith.

**DONOTDELETE**

06-18-2003, 11:46 PM

Adam Knowlden

06-19-2003, 12:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No, see, all you're responding with is, "The Lord GAVE them choice." But, if the Lord already knows the outcome, it's not a choice. If I drop a frog off a building, I could "give" it the choice to float up, or fall down. Since it falls down, and I know it falls down, it had no choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus sums up Free Will here:

 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


[ QUOTE ]
Enter ye in at the strait gate:

[/ QUOTE ]

He is telling everyone, "come to heaven with me"

but knew from eternity past knew many would not heed his cry:

[ QUOTE ]
and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat

[/ QUOTE ]

and re-emphasises that even though he has called all to repentance, few will take it:

[ QUOTE ]
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forcing everyone to take the straight path that leads to life is not free will, that's pre-destination.

Pre-destination is a concept developed by John Clavin.

Calvin held that human beings were innately sinful-utterly depraved by inheriting the original sin of Adam and Eve, the biblical parents of the human race.

But Calvin also taught that God, in his infinite mercy, would spare a small number of "elect" individuals from the fate of eternal hellfire that all mankind, owing to their corrupt natures, justly deserved. That elect group of "saints" would be blessed, at some point in their lives, by a profound sense of inner assurance that they possessed God's "saving grace."

"This dawning of hope was the experience of conversion, which might come upon individuals suddenly or gradually, in their earliest youth or even in the moments before death. It is important to emphasize to students that, in the Calvinist scheme, God decided who would be saved or ****ed before the beginning of history-and that this decision would not be affected by how human beings behaved during their lives."

That is unscriptural,

Paul taught:

 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


And we know the requirements of salvation:

 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


If Pre-destination was true, why would God say, "I will pour out my Spirit upon ALL flesh", "Christ died for all", "For God so loved THE WORLD" (and a million others I can think of) there would be no point in creating, and that by the nature of God makes no sense.

Giving the choice between two paths, along with telling where the path leads, is free will.

The main error in logic I see presented here is that God is being confined to human limitations of reality.

What you are saying is, because God knows what you will chose, why even bother creating that person.

That is a red herring case.

Knowing the choice someone will make does not exclude their ability to chose otherwise. Nor does it mean there will not be consequences for those choices.

They still have free will, which is what this post was about. You are combining Free Will and grace in one arguement. That is the red herring. Grace is an entirely different topic of debate. Why God still creates and interfers, is simply one word, Grace. That is a differnet arguement than what you are trying to present.

Make sense? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MrMrs Pumpn Iron

06-19-2003, 01:26 AM

Great thread guy's. They say musclehedz are dumb. HA! I keep it simple. I can hope and pray for you to believe as I do. But it is YOUR CHOICE(will) and I can respect that. Don't argue mine and Respect that. 2 Things are for sure in my life toay.
1.There is a GOD.
2. I am not HIM.
I will make mistakes I will lose family and friends to death. But I hope and pray they are with My God now. I waste too much of my precious time if I try t question His Will for me. I need the Strength to carry that out. I was a NYPD Officer at the WTC on 911. Iam retired now because of this disaster. In the name of someone elses God? I don't believe that. Their own will freedom of choice. I lost friends and colleagues that day as they laid down their lives for fellow man. I put my life ahead of mine and freely gave to save another. Not REALLY. You see my calling HIS WILL for me was to be a Bronx NY cop.Walk and talk amongst the people of His Kingdom. I am His Servant. I did'nt feel a choice a Free Will. It is what I prayed for everyday being fulfilled. I had the STRENGTH to carry out His WILL for me. I don't always understand what is written espeacially since 911 i suffered memory lose. The gym is my salvation everyday following a plan. I now Walk and Talk in the a new Kingdom. But I do understand this I was given the chance to live the life my God wanted for me and Thankyou God I will Continue to walk with you into your Kingdom or wherever you may ask me to go. Thanks guys for letting me ramble a little But I do Love this group and the topic is fantastic.

RichW

06-19-2003, 10:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Great thread guy's. They say musclehedz are dumb. HA! I keep it simple. I can hope and pray for you to believe as I do. But it is YOUR CHOICE(will) and I can respect that. Don't argue mine and Respect that. 2 Things are for sure in my life toay.
1.There is a GOD.
2. I am not HIM.
I will make mistakes I will lose family and friends to death. But I hope and pray they are with My God now. I waste too much of my precious time if I try t question His Will for me. I need the Strength to carry that out. I was a NYPD Officer at the WTC on 911. Iam retired now because of this disaster. In the name of someone elses God? I don't believe that. Their own will freedom of choice. I lost friends and colleagues that day as they laid down their lives for fellow man. I put my life ahead of mine and freely gave to save another. Not REALLY. You see my calling HIS WILL for me was to be a Bronx NY cop.Walk and talk amongst the people of His Kingdom. I am His Servant. I did'nt feel a choice a Free Will. It is what I prayed for everyday being fulfilled. I had the STRENGTH to carry out His WILL for me. I don't always understand what is written espeacially since 911 i suffered memory lose. The gym is my salvation everyday following a plan. I now Walk and Talk in the a new Kingdom. But I do understand this I was given the chance to live the life my God wanted for me and Thankyou God I will Continue to walk with you into your Kingdom or wherever you may ask me to go. Thanks guys for letting me ramble a little But I do Love this group and the topic is fantastic

[/ QUOTE ]
God Bless you!
I know what I went through on that day and what I continue to go through when ever I think about it. That can't even compare with a fraction of a fraction of what you must have witnessed and struggle with.
My heart, prayers and undying respect and admiration are with you. You who were there are more than heros! You showed the world at one of it darkest moments, at a time when we saw the worst humanity has to offer, you guys showed the world the best of humanity! You showed us all what we should strive to be!
Words just aren't enough! I guess the tears I'm shedding now take the place of any words I could write. Keep the faith and Again, Thanks and God Bless You!

CoLDTuRKeY

06-19-2003, 11:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
MrMrs Pumpn Iron said:
I was a NYPD Officer at the WTC on 911.

[/ QUOTE ]

God bless you man. That would have been among the 2 or 3 hardest jobs on the planet especially that day. Your truly a person that can be looked up to.
If you don't mind my asking, what caused your memory loss?

And Yu, this is my new favorite quote

[ QUOTE ]
"Fate leads the willing, drags the unwilling" - Cleanthes

[/ QUOTE ]

enderwigginout

07-18-2003, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yu Yevon said:
The Lord knows the outcome because, unlike us, He is not bound by time. He gave us free will, that doesn't mean He won't know the outcome.

There are key points you need to understand:

1. God is not bound by time - after all, He made it!
2. He gave us choice (free will)
3. He knows the outcome (see number 1)

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this is a problematic argument. If god is outside of time then he can not be IN time as well. He's either out of time or in time, but not both. If he is out of time, then he can not interfere in human history, which means the Bible isn't the word of god and further Jesus isn't really the son of god or any part of god (because God would both be in time and out of time at once which would negate free will) and so on and so forth. Further, if at any point he does come IN time, that would negate free will because, once again, he would know what we are going to do before we do it. But, if he's out of time, then free will seems as though it is preserved, in that he can know what we are going to do because there are no concepts of "god knowing before the fact" or "god knowing after the fact" because there is not such thing as "before" or "after" for him as he is outside of time.

So to recap, if god is outside of time then he logically can't interfere in human history much less father a human child. He would have created the universe and whatever happens, happens independent of his desire. If god is inside time, then that does not seem consistent with free will. Therefore, the Bible seems to be inconsistent on this point.

**DONOTDELETE**

07-18-2003, 10:23 PM

sandow

07-18-2003, 11:26 PM

i believe adam knew exactly what he was doing when partaking of the fruit from eve. However he knew that because of her disobedience she was going to die just as God had warned. He loved her so much that he did not want to live out eternity without her, so he ate. so to the second adam, our Lord Christ willingly went to the cross to die for those he loved/loves.

**DONOTDELETE**

07-18-2003, 11:35 PM

Venom

07-19-2003, 12:12 AM

Hey ender. To add to what Yu Yevon has said. Someone who creates something, is not bound to it. The creator of the computer, watch ect, is not bound to the rules of the watch. He is outside, and beyond its rules. But he can do whatsoever he pleases with the machines. Its that simple.

You see, The God of the Bible is an infinite being not bound by limitations of time, space, knowledge, or anything else.

To clarify, in creation which is the logically defensible position? that matter eternally existed (or came into existence by itself for no reason), and then by itself arranged itself into information systems against everything observed in real science? Or that a being with infinite intelligence, created information systems for life to exist, agreeing with real science?

The answer seems obvious, so why don't all intelligent scientists accept this? Michael Behe answers:

'Many people, including many important and well-respected scientists, just don't want there to be anything beyond nature. They don't want a supernatural being to affect nature, no matter how brief or constructive the interaction may have been. In other words they bring an a priori philosophical commitment to their science that restricts what kinds of explanations they will accept about the physical world. Sometimes this leads to rather odd behavior'

The crux of the matter is this: If one accepts there is a God who created us, then that God also owns us. He thus has a right to set the rules by which we must live. In the Bible, He has revealed to us that we are in rebellion against our Creator. Because of this rebellion called sin, our physical bodies are sentenced to death ' but we will live on, either with God, or without Him in a place of judgment.

But the good news is that our Creator provided, through the cross of Jesus Christ, a means of deliverance for our sin of rebellion, so that those who come to Him in faith, in repentance for their sin, can receive the forgiveness of a Holy God and spend forever with their Lord.

Moreover, by definition, an infinite, eternal being has always existed 'no one created God. He is the self-existing one ' the great 'I am' of the Bible. He is outside of time 'in fact, He created time.

You might say, 'But that means I have to accept this by faith, as I can't understand it.'

We read in the book of Hebrews, 'But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him'(Hebrews 11:6).

But this is not blind faith, as some think. In fact, the evolutionists who deny God have a blind faith ' they have to believe something that is against real science 'namely, that information can arise from disorder by chance.

The Christian faith is not a blind faith 'it is a logically defensible faith. This is why the Bible makes it clear that anyone who does not believe in God is without excuse:
'For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse'(Romans 1:20).

Here a verse, and a quote from the most recent bible study, on God being self existing (the I am) ect:

Hebrews 7:1-3
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there such a being, who has always been, is perfect in all his ways, and wisdom, and never changes? I have good news for you my friends, there is! And he has promised to us, that he would preserve his word, and allow us to Holy follow his precepts and statutes, with a ready mind and heart!

http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/Autumn_Valley.jpg

Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Psalms 147:5
5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Psalms 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Psalms 93:1-2
1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. 2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Micah 5:1-2
1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. 2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting

These final two verses are prophecies concerning Christ, and his Deity. For more on the these prophecies, read The Holy Trinity. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=492006& page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)

To add to this, lets use a quote from Yu Yevon, on the eternal nature of God:
[ QUOTE ]
Yu Yevon said:
Fantastic questions buddy!
[ QUOTE ]
But what is the difference between immortal and eternal? You say they are immortal but not eternal. Aren't both words about the same in meaning?

[/ QUOTE ]

Immortal simply means "exempt from death." Angels cannot be killed like we can because they possess no physical body, they are spirits.

Eternal means everlasting. With no beginning and no ending. Angels cannot be eternal because they were created by God, and hence have a beginning.

 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them 

All the host of them refers to the angels in heaven. And they are immortal, as Jesus states:

 36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 

[/ QUOTE ]

For additional information, click the following links, Angels and Demons Part I (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=533060& page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) Angels and Demons Part II (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=579857& page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

So as you see, God is perfect, eternal, infinite in knowledge, and cannot lie, nor sin. Therefore, it would behoove us, to follow after him! Hence, we turn to his most Holy Word for answers. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

This is the key to having one mind in the church, and so much more. Revivals in the bible occurred when servants of the Lord came to this epiphany and took heed. We will discuss this in detail later on, and so much more!

Acts 4:23-31
23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. 24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord , and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. 31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hope that helped clear things up. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Adam Knowlden

07-19-2003, 01:36 AM

Hey Ender,

One thing you have to realize about God is that He has a Nature.

That Nature is:
Divine
Infinte
Perfectly Holy and Just

Our philosophies do not impress God.

 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:


Why should Timothy avoid vain babblings Paul?

 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


This is a nice way for God to say, "I'm a whole lot smarter than you", but really "a whole lot smarter" is not even doing it justice. God's Wisdom, Justice, divinity(ie Nature) is infintietly higher than ours.

We are not even on the same realm.

This can be a hard concept to grasp. But H. Brooke said it in a very unique way:

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever is finite, as finite, will admit of no comparative relation with infinity; for whatever is less than infinite is still infinitely distant from infinity; and lower than infinite distance the lowest or least can not sink.

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, no matter how much we know or think we know, or can even imagine, God knows an infinte amount more beyond that. That is why He can be such a personal God!

For example, satan has lied to many and told them(he's even tried this on me), "There is war all over the world, starvation, disease, poverty, sickness, you think God has time to hear your petty problems? You're not worth his time!"

But that is a lie! As an infinte being, God can comprehend all situations simultaneously, perfectly, and equally.

One issue is however, God's hand moves by faith, not need, that is another post.

God's infinte attributes are:

having no limits or boundaries in time or space or extent or magnitude;
Having no boundaries or limitations in any realm or dimension
omniscent, omnipotent, omnipresent

To sum up-infinite, boundless, eternal, illimitable

Which is why the Psalmist declared:

 He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.

4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite. 

Which is why God told Sarah:

 9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD?


and in Revelation 19-

 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 

[ QUOTE ]
He's either out of time or in time, but not both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of God's infinte nature is omnipresence- all places at the same time:

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there : if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there .

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me , and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.


[ QUOTE ]
If he is out of time, then he can not interfere in human history

[/ QUOTE ]

God declared His ability to enter and manipulate time at his whim first in Gen. 1:1

 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


The beginning of time. Science has shown that all three, time, space, and matter all must co-exist simultaneously.

And here we see the Holy Spirit directly involved in time.

 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters 

Again, God can do what he wants with time:

13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.


He is eternal.

 from everlasting to everlasting thou art God 

And He has the ability to enter into time whenever He desires.

 1 That which was from the beginning , which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


The best way to describe "the beginning" in this next passage is "in the beginning before there was a beginning", this is the Lord's eternal nature that is difficult for our minds to comprehend.

For example many ask, "if God made us, who made God or where did God come from?" the answer is, "He always was, He never came from anywhere nor was He made!"

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


And at the appointed time, left His glory to inherit flesh:

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


God has clearly shown He is beyond time, and able to manipulate it at His Will. I can give many more examples.

He is also able to pull those who exist in time into the heavenlies.

Here Ezekiel the prophet saw the Lord:

 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

2 In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,

3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him.

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.

8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.

24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.



As did John:

 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.



And many others!

[ QUOTE ]
So to recap, if god is outside of time then he logically can't interfere in human history much less father a human child.

[/ QUOTE ]

God has created all children. The reproductive system is so complex and mind boggling. It's God's genious. He can manipulate the reproductive system anyway He pleases.

 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


and...he is the creator of all life:

 15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?


He is the Father of Spirits. Without the spirit the body is dead. Therefore God is the father of all life! Not just the divine virgin birth.

 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


The point is he can defenietly manipulate the material world. If he couldn't or wouldn't there would be no life, or world!

[ QUOTE ]
Further, if at any point he does come IN time, that would negate free will because, once again, he would know what we are going to do before we do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have free will and consequences mixed up.

You are free to reject God's will. However the consequences are very real, and the direct results of the choices you make.

To say free will means God doesn't care what you choose and if he does he is taking your choices away doesn't make sense. Free will is about choices. To say otherwise defies his nature of perfect holiness.

Jesus said,

 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


You have a choice. You can serve God or yourself. But not both.

 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


It's up to you which path you take.

And if you open the door.

 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


He's knocking, not smashing the door down. You open the door at your own free will.

However, if you try to "outsmart" or "outthing" God with philosophy, you will never find God.

 18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.


The main problem with your statement is that you are trying to apply finite limitations to an infintie, limitless God.

 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Peter Jackson

07-19-2003, 01:38 AM

Hey, do what you want, in the end it's between you and the big fella!

Adam Knowlden

07-19-2003, 01:50 AM

That's right! Just be careful of your words!

 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


and, I fear many are going to be held responsible for taking God's name in vein.

Not a smart thing to do.

 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


The mouth is very important because:

 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:

8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

iDunno

07-19-2003, 02:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
bjjcloud said:
No, see, all you're responding with is, "The Lord GAVE them choice." But, if the Lord already knows the outcome, it's not a choice. If I drop a frog off a building, I could "give" it the choice to float up, or fall down. Since it falls down, and I know it falls down, it had no choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to talk about this quote even though I didn't read the whole thread (really its too much bible babble and I do have things to do). Anyway the thing I think bjj is trying to say here is that you even though you gave the frog the option to float up or down YOU KNOW he couldn't of just 'floated up' because of gravity etc... well in relation to maybe god... he might give you the choice of left or right but if you go right god KNEW you couldn't of ever went left.... it would be like the frog defying gravity.. it just won't happen...

So just like dropping a frog off a building and gravity pulling him down to his death... all the 'events' in your life lead you up to making the decisions you make.. if its right or left or up or down... 'God' should of been able to see what was going to happen anyway even given the choice.. and being GOD he should of known that given the life you would lead there would be no way you could pick anything other then path you ended up on (ie right or left) ..

I hope I didn't confuse anyone...

Tuf

07-19-2003, 07:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
iDunno said:

[ QUOTE ]
bjjcloud said:
No, see, all you're responding with is, "The Lord GAVE them choice." But, if the Lord already knows the outcome, it's not a choice. If I drop a frog off a building, I could "give" it the choice to float up, or fall down. Since it falls down, and I know it falls down, it had no choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to talk about this quote even though I didn't read the whole thread That might be helpful to you. /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif (really its too much bible babble and I do have things to do). Anyway the thing I think bjj is trying to say here is that you even though you gave the frog the option to float up or down YOU KNOW he couldn't of just 'floated up' because of gravity etc... well in relation to maybe god... he might give you the choice of left or right but if you go right god KNEW you couldn't of ever went left.... it would be like the frog defying gravity.. it just won't happen...
Yes, God knows what our choices will be; He is omniscient.

Omniscience God perfectly knows Himself and all things, actual or possible, past, present or future, from all eternity ( Isaiah 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. , Job 37:16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge? ).

So just like dropping a frog off a building and gravity pulling him down to his death... all the 'events' in your life lead you up to making the decisions you make.. if its right or left or up or down... 'God' should of been able to see what was going to happen anyway even given the choice.. and being GOD he should of known that given the life you would lead there would be no way you could pick anything other then path you ended up on (ie right or left) ..

Another important doctrine to understand is the decree of God.

The Decree of God God’s eternal purpose based on the counsel of His own will, whereby for His own glory He has foreordained all that comes to pass ( Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: , Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ).

That the decree of God is inconsistent with human freedom is a common objection to the doctrine. If everything has been predetermined, then man has no choice in the matters of life. Man is a robot without a will; he is like a puppet on a string. Planning and making decisions are meaningless. Right?

On the contrary, it should be understood that man is not absolutely free but only relatively free with a creature freedom. However, we should realize that God planned that man would make choices and decisions and He would accomplish His will through these decisions. Not all things decreed are directive (matters in the plan which God determines to bring about by Himself), but many are permissive (matters in the plan in which God is not the originating cause but Satan, man or man’s sin nature are), allowing for man’s free will.

Again and again the Bible emphasizes man’s freedom and responsibility so man’s will is a real force with ability. In man’s consciousness he usually does not have a sense of being forced to do something. An illustration of this is the crucifixion of Christ (Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: ).

[/ QUOTE ]

enderwigginout

08-23-2003, 02:22 AM

Wow...I must have missed the other responses. But to further the discussion (since my classes haven't started yet /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ):

[ QUOTE ]
Hey ender. To add to what Yu Yevon has said. Someone who creates something, is not bound to it. The creator of the computer, watch ect, is not bound to the rules of the watch. He is outside, and beyond its rules. But he can do whatsoever he pleases with the machines. Its that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion that's a leap, a giant leap. The universe may or may not be a plaything. I guess you can make an argument that once you turn that computer on you are bound to its rules but I don't think I would want to go there. I don't think that the argument is necessary.

It's not apparent to me that a being can both be outside of time and interfere in it as well. I understand your point, but I don't believe the answer is satisfactory and many philosophers aren't satisfied with it as well.

[ QUOTE ]
You see, The God of the Bible is an infinite being not bound by limitations of time, space, knowledge, or anything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that's the one I'm talking about. You can have a creater/god without those properties, however you seem to frame the discussion as you either believe in this one version of God or no god at all. That's just not the case.

[ QUOTE ]
To clarify, in creation which is the logically defensible position? that matter eternally existed (or came into existence by itself for no reason), and then by itself arranged itself into information systems against everything observed in real science? Or that a being with infinite intelligence, created information systems for life to exist, agreeing with real science?

[/ QUOTE ]

You assume too much. You assume that the only choice is between the Biblical_God with X list of attributes and non-belief in god.

[ QUOTE ]
God's infinte attributes are:

having no limits or boundaries in time or space or extent or magnitude;
Having no boundaries or limitations in any realm or dimension
omniscent, omnipotent, omnipresent

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you (different you) assume too much in my opinion. The idea that an omniscent, omnipotent, omnipresent god could exist is matter of philosophical debate. I don't think the patchwork of arguments that hold them all together really work.

Venom

08-23-2003, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not apparent to me that a being can both be outside of time and interfere in it as well. I understand your point, but I don't believe the answer is satisfactory

[/ QUOTE ]

We have covered this topic thoroughly. And you just keep saying it's not satisfactory, for no logical reason. I see nothing illogical in it at all, it's quite clear that you just want to argue.

Colossians 2:4-9
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

2 Timothy 2:16-18
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred.

[ QUOTE ]

Again, you (different you) assume too much in my opinion. The idea that an omniscent, omnipotent, omnipresent god could exist is matter of philosophical debate. I don't think the patchwork of arguments that hold them all together really work.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want proof for the God of the bible, than except him into your heart, and you will never question us again. And study our bible threads.

Acts 17:22-31
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

2 Timothy 1:12
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

kokokolo

12-18-2005, 08:12 AM

this argument hurts me so.
As It seems to be the first link on the bible studies that was not decisive in favor of gods will... as it seems there is no winning the argument, even though many think you have.

the problem arises that If person A has free will, person A doesnt accept god, and god created him.Then God created him with knowledge that he would go to hell. Its almost as if god chose to make that person for that purpose...
QUOTE
"Some have suggested that God knows the future in two ways. First, He knows that some things will happen, by Himself intending to do those things, and because His intentions can't be thwarted, He knows absolutely those things He intends. Second, He is a perfect diagnostician of present tendancies and dispositions, knowing all the probabilities of anything we might freely do.

God knows that you are going to do "A" just because you are freely going to choose "A". Foreknowledge (which God possesses) still leaves room for free will."

It would seem the only way we could have free will is if god does not know for sure which souls will accept him, he knows all of the world he created and probabilities of what we will do. But can not measure the spirit of how we will listen to the holy ghost or evil which we know in our hearts which is right and what is wrong.

so in a way I guess im proposing that the same way I could make lake with fish, I wouldnt know before more fish are born, what those future fish will do.

Perhaps God does not know individually what we will do before we get here.

Rebirth

12-18-2005, 01:51 PM

Great discussion going on guys. Alot of things have been covered.

I think one of the most common problems people sometimes have is that we try to explain or justify God or his actions through our own logic and knowledge. This can never be done. We don't have the knowledge or understanding to truly comprehend God or those things surrounding his existence. We are of human minds which are fallible while he is....well....God.

Just my thoughts..............

William Ustav

12-18-2005, 05:40 PM

This is a very old thread /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Adam Knowlden

12-18-2005, 07:36 PM

Here is from CARM ministires:

[ QUOTE ]
If God knows our free will choices,
do we still have free will?

I've always been puzzled by the notion held by some people that if God knows what we are going to choose in the future, then we don't really have free will. They say that if God knows we are going to make a certain "free will" choice, then when it is time for us to make that choice, because God knows what we are going to choose, we are not really free to make a different choice and God's foreknowledge means we cannot have free will. Quite honestly, I do not see this as being a problem at all. Let's work with the idea that we are free will creatures and that God knows all things, even our future choices. Furthermore, let's define free will in the Open Theist sense as the ability to make equal choices between options, regardless of a person's sinful nature.1 Given these conditions, are God's omniscience and our free will incompatible as the Open Theists claim?

Analogy

By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen, the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.

Logic

Logically, God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. It means that God simply knows what we have chosen to do ahead of time. Our freedom is not restricted by God's foreknowledge; our freedom is simply realized ahead of time by God. In this, our natural ability to make another choice has not been removed anymore than my choice of what to write inside the parenthesis (hello) was removed by God who knew I would put the word "hello" in the parentheses before the universe was made. Before typing the word "hello," I pondered which word to write. My pondering was my doing and the choice was mine. How then was I somehow restricted in freedom when choosing what to write if God knew what I was going to do? No matter what choice we freely make can be known by God and His knowing it doesn't mean we aren't making a free choice.

Time

Part of the issue here is the nature of time. If the future exists for God even as the present does, then God is consistently in all places at all times and is not restricted by time. This would mean that time was not a part of His nature to which God is subject, and that God is not a linear entity; that is, it would mean that God is not restricted to operating in our time realm and is not restricted to the present only. If God is not restricted to existence in the present, our present, then the future is known by God because God indwells the future as well as the present (and the past). This would mean that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known by God. Again, our ability to choose is not altered or lessened by God existing in the future an knowing what we freely choose. It just means that God can see what we will freely choose -- because that is what we freely choose -- and know what it is.
Part of the problem in Open Theism is that by restricting God to the present only, His existence is defined in such a way as to imply that time is part of His nature and that He is restricted to it. The question is whether or not this is logical as well as biblical. For an analysis of the logic of the position, please see A logical refutation of open theism.

Scripture

Scripturally, God inhabits eternity. Psalm 90:2 says, "Before the mountains were born, or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." But this verses, an others, do not declare that God lives inside or outside of time. Rather, the Bible tells us that God is eternal. We can, however, note that the Bible teaches that God has no beginning or end. This is not definitive, but we may be able to conclude that since time is that non-spatial, continuous succession of events from the past, through the present, and into the future, and that since the word "beginning" denotes a relationship to and in time, and since God has no beginning, that time is not applicable to God's nature. In other words, God has no beginning and since "beginning" deals with an event in time, God is outside of time.
Nevertheless, the scriptures are not definitive on this issue and we can only conclude what it does say; namely, that God is eternal, without beginning, without end, and that He can accurately and precisely predict what will happen.

"As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what would take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place," (Dan. 2:29).

So, in relation to our free will and God's predictive ability, there is no biblical reason to assert that God's foreknowledge negates our freedom.

Conclusion

There is no logical reason to claim that if God knows what choices we are going to make that it means we are not free. It still means that the free choices we will make are free -- they are just known ahead of time by God. If we choose something different, then that choice will have been eternally known by God. Furthermore, this knowledge by God does not alter our nature in that it does not change what we are, free to make choices. God's knowledge is necessarily complete and exhaustive because that is His nature to know all things. In fact, since He has eternally known what all our free choices will be, He has ordained history to come to the conclusion that He wishes including and incorporating our choices into His divine plan: “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28). Why because God always knows all things: "..God is greater than our heart, and knows all things," (1 John 3:20).

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps God does not know individually what we will do before we get here.

[/ QUOTE ]

He knows beforehand.

Every example in the bible suggests that God knows who will reject Him, from Judas betraying Christ, predicted hundreds of years beforehand, to Adam and Eve's original sin, predicted when the apostle John stated Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.

 Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 

John 18:4
Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? 

 1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

3Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.


 Psalm 109
1Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;

2For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

3They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.

4For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.

5And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

6Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

7When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin

God knows, its man's choice to reject Him.

True love can not be forced. God already demonstrated His True love by giving His own Son. There is nothing more He could have done to demonstrate His love, than give mankind the best He had offer, His own Son.

 Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 

The fact that God demonstrated His mighty power by coming to earth as a man is mindboggling. Its like trying to rationalize God's eternal nature, infinite mind, or triune being. Its beyond human comprehension.

If man choses to reject Christ, it is entirely His choice.

 everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.


Man choses to go to reject Christ by his own free will, independent of whether God knows the final choice or not.

25 Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?


Part of true love is allowing others to make their own choices and not forcing oneself upon the other person, even if you know the choices they are going to make will be foolish and destructive and leave your own heart open to be rejected. Offering your love to someone is a risk, when you know full well the person may reject you or later forsake you. But this is the only way to ensure you are receiving true love back from the person.

 4Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.

5It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].

6It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.

7Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].

8Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy ([d]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].



God doesn't want anyone to go to hell:

 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 

But he won't keep anyone from getting what they ask for, eternity with Him or without Him:

 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


God did not create hell for man, it was created as a prison for fallen angels:

 Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 

God calls all to salvation,

To address your other concern, all of us have grown in our understanding of the Word since the creation of many of the threads in the bible study links.

We are working to update them into a seperate section of the site. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif