Westside Split: 3x3 Bench, Speed Days, Maximal Effort Days

[sta63bmx]

I got a question about speed bench in my workout journal, so I am going to try and explain (as well as I understand it) how the Westside-style training split works. I'll try to make it simple. It actually took me a while to understand how this works, but I think I understand how it works now. I'll just list questions I think people might ask and list the answers after that.

Note: I am not a personal trainer, I am not an expert, I am just somebody else who likes to lift weights. This is my best shot at summarizing what I have read and heard regarding these methods, as well as my experience with these methods. I learn from reading and talking, but I also learn from doing. A lot of what I have learned about works for ME came from listening to my own body in the gym. I suggest you stop obsessing over M&F or the fact that people give different advice, and start trying to find what makes your body tick. You can only read and learn and think so much, and then you have to go and do. If you're not willing to do that, if you're always looking for "the answer" without trying to find it in a squat rack or under a bar, I don't think you will.

What Is Westside?

Westside Barbell Club is a powerlifting gym in Ohio with Louie Simmons as the president, and they currently boast a number of the strongest lifters in the world. This is not a bodybuilding gym, but the members are all incredibly strong, and any one of them could cut weight and have an awesome physique, I would bet.

Why are their training methods different than normal training methods?

Every split I had seen before I started looking into Westside methods involved simply lifting weights, different body parts on different days, and most sets involved doing repetitions to failure. Sure, you can max on DL, squat, or bench if you want, but there's no real constant between most of the splits I saw besides working to failure and then using different methods to continue to lift to failure. Most of the sets I saw involved using weights between 70%-100% or 1RM. Most of the splits were also geared towards hypertrophy and not necessarily speed or power.

A Westside training split is not like this. Rather than work a body part once a week and work to repetition failure in the sets, a Westside split involves two types of days. There are speed days and maximal effort days. Two days a week are bench training, two days a week are back/leg training. So there are four workouts in a week. A speed bench day, a maximal effort bench day, a speed leg/back day, and a maximal effort back/leg day. Speed days involve "dynamic effort" and maximal effort days involve "maximal effort training". If you couldn't figure that last one out, keep coloring in your book and the short bus will pick you up soon. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif These methods are at least in part adopted from the work of Soviet trainers, and are different than traditional western methods of training in some ways.

The workouts are arranged in a specific order. Once a speed day is done, the maximal effort day corresponding to that speed day is done 72 hours later. THat is, if you did speed bench on Monday, you'd do maximal effort bench on Thursday. If you did speed leg/back day on Monday, you'd do maximal effort leg/back day on THursday.

I currently do speed bench Monday, maximal effort bench Thursday, and I do maximal effort leg/back day on Tuesday, speed back/leg day on Friday. I should switch that around. I don't like having two maximal effort days back to back, which is why I originally did it that way.

How do bench days work?

On bench days, it typically goes like this: Bench, then assistance exercises. Assistance exercises are for triceps, shoulders, rear delts, lats, all the muscles that assist in benching. Assistance exercises are done in a more standard hypertrophy-style set/rep method. I try to burn through these with intensity.

On speed bench days, I work with 50-60% of 1 rep raw max. (no shirt, no, I don't own a shirt, why the hell would I own a shirt when I'm weak? /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ) Speed day's main exercise is some form of bench, done with light weight, for sets of three reps. When I say 3x3 bench, I mean I use three different grips (close, medium, wide), and at each grip I do three sets of three reps. I use short (30 second) rest periods and try to knock these out quickly.

This is speed day, so there had better be some **** bar speed!!! I don't care if it hurts your fragile male ego, stick with the prescribed weights. My guideline for speed (I need to watch the tapes again and review this) is to get all three reps hammered out within a quick "one one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-thousand" count from the time I drop the bar on the first rep. Speed is critical to speed day. I'll explain a little farther down. But keeping bar speed up is critical.

You can do different exercises on speed bench day, and I like to switch them up every few weeks. Flat bench, incline bench, flat or incline bench with chains or bands, something big and compound. The bands are lots of fun.

After this, you could do some kind of extension for triceps, something for shoulders (plate raises are fun), lats in the plane of pressing (they usually seem to do some kind of low machine rows), then rear delts (face pulls or typical rear delts are good, sometimes for higher reps). I like to do abs, too. Can't have too much. THe workout should last less than an hour, easy.

Now for maximal effort day, the assistance exercise thing doesn't seem to change. But instead of doing speed work at 5-60% of 1RM, you do a "special exercise" at 100% of 1RM, working up to try and match or beat a previous record in this lift. It's critical to record maxes. SPecial exercises include floor presses, floor presses with chains, board presses, pin presses, incline or shoulder pin presses, cambered bar presses, close grip inclines...they're designed to be "bench-like" movements, but they aren't flat bench. THere are done with maybe a warmup set for five reps somewhere, then in threes until you can't get three (increasing the weight on every set) and then going in singles to failure. You can drop the weight then and do some doubles or triples with less weight, working with at least 90% of 1RM, as much as possible.

Try to pick the special exercises intelligently, so they hit your sticking point as much as possible. If your lockout sucks, you may want to do lots of board presses, floor presses, pin presses, stuff to train the lockout. If your lower half sucks, cambered bar presses are a hit. Why do we do these maximal effort days? THis will also be explained.

How do leg/back days work?

This is at least sort-of related to the No-Deadlift Workout For Deadlift idea. Again, there are speed and maximal effort days.

On speed days, same deal. Again, I'm pretty sure you want 50-60% of 1RM, and you want to do a speed exercise. Low box squats, parallel box squats, box squats just above parallel, box squats with chains, maybe light deadlifts for explosiveness, deadlifts for explosiveness with chains or bands. I usually do 5 sets of three of the same exercise. Then the assistance exercises...

Note: I suppose you could do power cleans or snatches as a power exercise. I haven't seen much info on that.

SLDL, leg curls, leg curls with a band, adductor work, whatever. If something is weak for sure, train it. And abs, more abs, abs out the butt. lol

For heavy days, again, you pick a special exercise. Maybe one of the eight billion good morning variations, zercher squats, zercher deadlifts, rack pulls, all kinds of fun stuff. You're going for a new 1RM on every maximal effort day. And then your assistance exercises.

Note: They always do reverse hypers as an assistance exercise. I don't have a reverse hyper machine. /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif Quel dommage! or whatever.

What is the point of speed day?

Dropping the weight that much often hurts the fragile male ego. LOL The point of speed day is SPEED!!! If you're pushing the bar slow, you aren't getting any speed.

As far as I understand it, the point of speed day is to help train your body to explode, to immediately fire all motor neurons to generate as much power as possible. THe bar has to be moving fast to be working in the speed zone. Hence the low weight. However, when you're pushing as hard as you can, blasting the bar up, you're using way more power than if you were slowly pushing it up.

Por Ejemplo: If you lift a 300 newton weight 1 m you just did 300 N-m (joules) of work. If you do it in 3 seconds, you just had to operate at 100 watts to do that; your power output during the exercise was 100 watts. If you blast it up there in 1 second, you were using 300 watts of power at the time.

So on speed days, you seem to be using fast-twitch muscle fibers more, as well as training your body's neuromuscular system to operate in such a manner that it can activate as much muscle as possible, as quickly as possible. This helps develop the kind of explosive power you need to fire the bar up quickly, explode out of the hole on squats, come off the line quickly in football, etc.

It is good to switch these exercises periodically, I think. Variation is alwasy good. However, I don't think these submaximal weights will lead to neuromuscular burnout as quickly as the max effort days...

What's the point of maximal effort days?

Here you are training your body to lift heavy weight. You need explosive power, yes, but you also need to be able to recruit every freaking bit of muscle you can get your nerve impulses on. your body seems to have inhibition reflexes that keep you from harnessing all your muscle fibers. If you could use them 100% all the time at any point in your range of motion, you could hurt yourself. Maximal effort training forces your body to recruit more muscle, and it lowers your inhibition reflexes so your body can get more muscle to respond to the stimulus of maximal effort training. If you keep maxing on an exercise, your body will get better at it.

However, for physiological reasons I don't understand, if you keep pounding the same exercise, your body will strat to detrain after a few weeks, and you won't keep making progress.

So you keep switching exercises in some kind of pattern...

How are the workouts periodized? What does it do for you?

Many standard western workouts simply periodize rep/weight schemes, but keep pounding out the same exercises over and over. The body adapts and stagnates and you plateau. BTDT.

Here, you are forced to run in 1-3 week cycles as you get better at the exercises. For less experienced lifters like me, a 3 week cycle is a nice length. You might go 50, 55, 60% on your speed day percentages. And you would only keep the same maximal effort exercise for three weeks before switching. I like to switch assistance exercises every three weeks, too.

End result: Constant shock! Your body is always doing something like benching, but not benching! Always doing something like deadlifting, but not deadlifting! Always doing something like squatting, but not squatting! But you are still maxing out every friggin week! you are lifting heavy and with a ton of variation! Adaptation is destroyed.

You can also add fun by changing pin heights every week on pin presses of all kinds as well as rack pulls. I also try to always go for more weight/reps on assistance exercises.

Light days are also a great break from lifting for max effort.

Where can I get more information?

Deepsquatter! (http://www.deepsquatter.com)

Read the strength archives. Also search for articles by Dave Tate and Louie Simmons.

This is not a hypertrophy workout, I want hypertrophy!

Arnold Voice: Stop whining!

Yes, if you want strict hypertrophy, this may not be for you. Muscle growth isn't really the goal at Westside, lifting more weight is. But hypertrophy-oriented ("repeated effort") training is a part of this, in the assistance exercises. Every workout starts with big compound movements. The following assistance exercises will stimulate hypertrophy. Moreover, if you are traiing for speed and power in sports, repeated effort/hypertrophy training only is not the answer, in my opinion. You need to learn how to move with power, to harness the maximum amount of muscle possible when you want it. Dynamic effort and maximal effort training are excellent for this. if you don't believe it, look at Louie's list of consulting credits for sports teams.

Unless you are friggin Gunter or Ronnie, the odds are very much in your favor that lifting more weight, heavier weight, and pushing your body to the limit is going to make you grow. Running speed days seems to hit fast-twitch fibers more than repeated-effort training. Running maximal effort days puts more stress on your connective tissue, increases muscular coordination through compound movements, and builds a better strength base for training. On top of all that, the constant variation is great for avoiding stagnation.

What did it do for you?

I lift alone. No spotter. I had a back injury last fall. I was only able to seriously train this way for a couple of months running bench days with a friend back then. I did see a 20 lb. jump in my bench max during that time.

I can't stand here and tell you it made me a million times stronger. I did not apply these principles very well. But I have gotten a lot thicker since then in my upper body, and I weigh 195 now as opposed to maybe 185 at the end of last summer. There is more pop in my box squat than there was. This ain't like some ad for the Chuck Norris Total Gym where I'll feed you a line of bull. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If nothing else, maybe you can take away some of the exercises and use them. Band presses, especially, are awesome for working chest and the chest contraction at the top of the motion. The mere act of changing from repeated effort training to dynamic effort training is a nice shock. Finally, the constant variation is good for spurring growth.

Anyways. If you had a question, that's my attempt to explain what I mean when I say 3x3 bench or a westside split. If you think Louie Simmons is a nutcase, look at the lifters that come out of his gym and the progress that many people have made with his training methods, overcoming strength plateaus...and not novice lifters, but pros, people who were good before they came and had been stuck, sometimes for years.

And the first person to whine "They juice!" should remember that other pros juice too, and they still manage to be perhaps *the* most elite powerlifting gym in the world...

These principles (I believe) apply to a human body, not just people who are using AS. You may not make the crazy gains they do or lift what they do, but AS doesn't change your meuromuscular system, which is what the Westside system is all about.

[Gatecrasher]

JP, I was just reading up on the Westside BB stuff about 15 minutes ago for the first time. That is freaking craziness.....you mind-reading, rock-carrying, WSM-obsessed, hopped up on carbs, insane engineering student! Ohh, btw, good post my man!

[sta63bmx]

It is pretty crazy, that's true. And I think it's important to remember that these guys all have a strength base most human beings simply don't possess, and that it helps make them more injury-resistant. Throw in some AS for faster recovery, and I think you need to watch yourself as you get into it, just to make sure you don't overtrain yourself at first.

The monkeys told me you were reading those articles. They forced me to write this post at gunpoint. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Bands: We stole some thera-band from a hospital. Just cut long pieces and tie them in the length of the loop you want. You want to try and get it so at the bottom of band presses, the band isn't stretched at all. You'll know the weight at the bottom accurately then. That's how we did it, anyways. We got two kinds of thera-band stuff, and this was flat, wide stuff, not the round stuff. One was grey, one was black, and I think the black ones are wimpier.

Chains: I think they are referring to 5/8" chain. Look at the guidelines on how much weight to add.

When we did band presses, we'd grab 70's, dump them on the floor, and then wrap the band around the handle of the bar and the handle of the dumbbell. I am not sure how much extra resistance it added, but it had to be at least another 15-20 lbs. on each side. I suppose you could always measure the spring constant of the bands if you wanted to be anal about it. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You can try it on incline, but ya need longer bands. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Don't make the mistake we did, where there's so much overload you can barely unrack it.

Again, these are things that are simple and kind of crude, but effective. Ask in a sports medicine clinic or at a hospital's physical therapy unit of they have thera-band or you can order the real jumpstretch bands. $$$

[Big Dan]

dude, only got to read half of it (heading out for an interview), but that's some insane stuff! I might have to try and work this in.

let me ask you though - how great were the looks you got when you'd do a 3x3 workout in the gym with Bench Monkies around?

[Manseed]

Man JP you should have been a writter! All your posts are so long (and informative /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif) that i actually have to sit down and concentrate on what im reading! As always great post!

[sta63bmx]

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Big Dan said:
let me ask you though - how great were the looks you got when you'd do a 3x3 workout in the gym with Bench Monkies around?

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We used to get strange looks, because the easiest way to do 99% of these workouts is in a power rack. So we'd go to the squat cage, drag a flat bench over there, and get set up to lift. There were three flat benches in the gym, so people would kind of give us the eye like "What are these retards doing?" I bet half of them were thinking "Hey, I was gonna do curls in there..." But when we'd get out the bands, that's when the looks usually started. lol

It was never anything too bad, but most of the people would look at me and Tom like we were Weirdos From Another Planet. LOL We always found it funny. Lifting with Tom was some of the most fun I've ever had.

But in retrospect, I can understand it....lifting with bands, it almost looks like you're in some weird contraption and at any moment it might start spinning and send out intense radiation that would mutate all human flesh within the immediate vicinity.

It's almost as bad as when you squat and go down past parallel and people are like "Dude, you're going too low" like they don't understand that a quarter squat is no squat at all. They stare like they've never seen that before, and they are truly mystified.

[superbilt]

westside is good stuff. i am appying some of their principles in my current routine

[Big Dan]

Good stuff. I think I might try implementing some of these ideas in my leg training as I need to add some thickness to my quads area. I also need to add some strength. A guy my size should be squatting a lot more than what I'm doing...even if he has the bad knees I have.

Thanks again JP, always information (and entertaining) posts.

[Vito]

JP as always a great Post. Thanks for enlightening the group.

[sta63bmx]

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Big Dan said:
A guy my size should be squatting a lot more than what I'm doing...even if he has the bad knees I have.

Thanks again JP, always information (and entertaining) posts.

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I think that's one of the best things about squatting in powerlifting fashion...I have found it to be so much easier on my knees. I really credit box squats for helping me to learn how to squat more effectively. When I started, I squatted narrower, and I had trouble keeping my shins back, I naturally widened out my stance a little bit, and I was pretty comfortable for a while. But once in a while my knees would bug me. I never realized just how wide I could squat until I started doing box squats. If I point my toes straight forward, the outsides of my feet are about 42" apart or a little more when I squat. This is why a lot of squat racks blow for wide stance squatters. You really need a sumo-style cage for this, where your feet have clearance. But it's ok (usually) in a rack since the bars aren't on the floor. 42" wide with a 28" inseam is pretty wide, I think. Maybe this is why my butt has gotten so big. lol I am Jennifer Lopez! Um....never mind. Ladies, if you have a flat butt, think sumo, and you'll be glad in no time...

Anyways! The box squat is an AWESOME tool for beginners as well as a power-building exercise. Why?

1) The box lets you know EXACTLY how deep you are. Set up, und sitten der assen on der boxxen. Look in the mirror to your side or drop a torpedo level on your thigh. I'm not kidding. You can determine exactly how parallel you are by playing with the box height. So you can set up for a particular height if you're more experienced, or just use the box to make sure you come down all the way as a beginner, thus avoiding the cardinal sin of most losers, quarter squatting. It's fascinating how as the weight increases, the range of motion decreases. The box cures this, because it does not lie. Unlike a pervert on a dance floor, there is no dispute as to whether or not your butt has been touched. You can feel the box and know exactly how far off the floor your butt is.

2) The box lets you control your shin angle with frightening accuracy. Shin angle and being parallel are related, and they depend on each other a little bit. Your shin angle determines your knee height, and knee height and hip joint height determine parallelism. However, shin angle probably doesn't vary more than 15 degrees either way about straight up and down, or for a 20" shin, that's less than 3/4" of an inch variance in knee height. Still, it changes how parallel you are by a tiny bit. But with the box, you can control both of these variables at the same time!

When I sit on the box and get my bearings, I sit on the box and determine the following things and mark locations in my mind...

a) Where is the edge of the box hitting my butt when I sit on it?
b) How parallel am I when I sit like this?
c) How wide is my stance in the rack?
d) How are my toes pointed?
e) How far back from a visual reference on the floor are my feet when I am all set up on the box?

Once you know everything else, where you put your feet will determine what your shin angle is. And if you squat back onto the box and your butt hits it in the same place as when you were sitting on it, and your stance is the same width as when you were sitting on it, toes pointed the same way, and your feet are in the exact same location, you're gonna have the same shin angle you had while sitting on the box! SO you now have a way to control shin angle without looking at it.

3) What happens when you do these?

I guarantee that when you get all set up, have your shins nice and straight (or farther back to make life easier on your knees!), and know where everything is in space, the first time you squat back onto the box, your butt is gonna be at least 4" too far forward. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif This is where the training comes in. You have to squat back farther until you feel your butt hit in the same place (feel for the edge of the box) when you have exactly the same stance. Just like the box can train you for depth, it can train you for shin angle at the same time!!!

This is a tool of awesome, incredible power. Even while squatting alone, you can use this to fine tune your squat form. There is nothing wrong with marking a spot on the floor for toes. I have done it.

"Didn't this have something to do with your knees?" Yes, it did. Squatting with your shins perpendicular to the ground and coming down dead parallel means your knee forms a 90 degree angle. Comfy and safe. If you can get your thighs parallel and have your shins leaning back (it takes practice, but can be done), it is amazingly easy on your knees.

People who go "You're going too deep; you're gonna get hurt, duh, duh, duuuuuuuuuh, me stupid. Me make fire, find mammoth. Ooga. Duh! Need ***** monkey. DUH! DUH!"...sorry. I hate frickin idiots like this. They remind me of Mr. Peepers. I envision them in a red jumper going "Bah! BAH!" rathe than spewing their mindless drivel when they speak to me. Ignore them. The chimpanzees will fix them. ANyways.

Those people are losing sight of the critical fact that SHIN ANGLE RELATIVE TO YOUR THIGH is what makes your knees hurt when you squat. By keeping that angle under control through box squat training, you can handle heavier and heavier weight without destroying your knees.

The Downside: Squatting in this fashion utilizes significantly less quadricep than olympic style squatting or narrower squatting. You need quads, I know. But this is easier on your knees, helps you utilize more muscle and build more strength for big leg movements, and also does a pretty good job of pre-exhausting your quads. My quads don't get worked as much this way, but they still get worked. Follow the advice of the mighty Gockenator and follow this kind of deal with front squats! Now your quads are tired, so you can use lighter weight to get the same amount of intensity in your quads. It will also be easier on your shoulders holding the weight.

Try it! And don't listen to those fools who tell you you're going too deep, because they are only looking at one variable, and that's parallelism. They should also consider shin angle before spewing their nonsense. I think they do it because they're embarassed about their quarter squatting ways, and in their Bench Monkey minds, they wish they could be Franco Monkeys, but they are unwilling to humble themselves and learn from The Prophet, Louie Simmons. And they refuse to follow Lord Franco. Ignore them, read up, and listen to your body. And get strong.

[Big Dan]

JP -
Probably one of the most well thought out looks at squatting from a knee-saving perspect that I have ever read!

Essentially, your suggesting maintaining the same ROM of the knee, but maintaing different body positioning so as to achieve a parallel (full) squat. I never had given much thought to where my shins where when I was squatting. Hell, your dropping your *** down, making your thighs parallel and popping back up. Why think about your shins?

I just tried differing my shin angle (man, I get funny looks from co-workers when I do this stuff) and it really does making a difference in your knees.

One quesiton, do you feel like you're going to lose it out the front more when you really keep them straight? I feel like I have to keep my shoulders farther forward to maintain balance, hencing bending a bit more forward at the waist.

[sta63bmx]

[ QUOTE ]
Big Dan said:
JP -
Probably one of the most well thought out looks at squatting from a knee-saving perspect that I have ever read!


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LOL....you are too kind. but now the next time some numbskull goes "You're getting too low!" you can envision them as Mr. Peepers and just smile and nod.

[ QUOTE ]

Essentially, your suggesting maintaining the same ROM of the knee, but maintaing different body positioning so as to achieve a parallel (full) squat. I never had given much thought to where my shins where when I was squatting. Hell, your dropping your *** down, making your thighs parallel and popping back up. Why think about your shins?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think if anything, you get to decrease your knee rotation a little, since it you drop 'em back, parallel is less of an angle than if they're forward. It's definitely less rotation than if they're forward! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I wish I knew more about what the "safe" zone is for your knees. I just know that for me, applying a lot of force when my shins are bent more than 90 degrees from my knees doesn't feel so good. And most people don't think about shins... /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif That's why they squarter squat, because going down farther hurts too much.

[ QUOTE ]

I just tried differing my shin angle (man, I get funny looks from co-workers when I do this stuff) and it really does making a difference in your knees.


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When their patellar tendons rip at 135 and they are laying on the floor in agony, you can laugh. THe thing I hate about some of this stuff is it's almost impossible to keep your balance without a bar! lol

[ QUOTE ]

One quesiton, do you feel like you're going to lose it out the front more when you really keep them straight? I feel like I have to keep my shoulders farther forward to maintain balance, hencing bending a bit more forward at the waist.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do bend a little more at the waist this way. But part of maintaining balance and keeping your shins back is your stance width. When you squat narrower, and your thighs are more straight forward, your center of gravity will come back a lot as you squat. And you'll fall over backwards. THis is why people get their shins forward...they try to stay really upright, and as they squat down and the CG moves back, they feel like they're going to fall over backwards. To combat this, they let their knees come way forward, so they are almost squatting forward, in a way. Their other option would be to bend over more at the waist to keep balance, which nobody wants to do.

When you squat really wide, now your thighs are pointed out to the sides. So that means your pelvis isn't as far back from your feet as it is if you squat narrow. This means that if you squat really wide, your center of gravity will already be closer to your feet than if you squat narrow, assuming your back was at the same angle to the floor in both cases.

So in the narrow case, yes, I would have to bend over to maintain balance, and that destroys your back. I've had a few bad reps that way. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif But in the wide case, your CG is scooted forwards towards your feet some, so it's already a little easier to maintain balance. As you squat "back" in a wide stance power movement, your butt (which can be large and heavy, as mine is...) will shift your CG back, so you do have to come forward a little bit with the weight. But in my experience, you don't have to come forward very much to maintain balance...as your stance widens, you come forward less and less, since the wide stance leaves your CG closer to your feet.

This can be hard on your back sometimes if you're using 100% posterior chain to support that. I don't feel like my forward movement is excessive. The secret weapon (IMO) in this movement is your hip flexors. Trying to power up out of the hole with your legs by pushing up WILL get you bent over and it WILL tear up your back. That is, your legs straighten before you are really under the bar, and you get snapped off. THe hip flexors are one of the keys to making this work, I think. That and pushing "out" with your knees.

I like to point my toes straight forward when I squat. I have heard the school of thought that says "Toes must always be pointed in same direction as thighs, thus saith Christ, blah blah blah...." I don't buy that. not for a wide, wide stance. I cannot explain this to you (I am not a kines major), but I think it has something to do with the "sagittal plane". Bear with me. And do the following things in your cube.

1) Stand up and kind of get in a wide stance and squat a little like you were going to poop in a rest stop and didn't want your butt to touch the gay-orgified toilet seats covered in unknown substances.

2) Start this movement with your toes pointing out in the same direction as your legs, and slowly rotate your toes in and out, trying to hold the rest of your leg fixed in space. Do this a few times.

Feel that in your hips? As the toes point straight forward, tension increases right there in the....whatever the heck those are. Your hip flexors. Toes straight forward=tons of tension in your hip flexors. If you squat like that with weight, wide stance, toes straight forward, you will build a massive amount of tension in your hip flexors. Don't ask me why, for God's sakes. But you will. This is stored energy that can be used if you know how to do a box squat-style movement.

The same way you squatted "back" to get your big butt on the box and you came bent forward a little bit at the waist, now you are going to come back up by squatting "forward".

Note: If you think this is zen hoodoo BS and I am the victim of tainted whey, just spend a half hour fooling around in a squat rack. Much like the Magic Moving *** of SLDL fame, your recruitment patterns can vary like MAD in the squat. Toes forward makes your body suddenly involve a TON of hip flexor.

You use this stored hip power to drive your hips forward. You squat forward, power your hips forward, and think about driving yourself UNDER the bar. This is done while you start to straighen up. Rather than thinking about doing a good morning and using your lumbars to move your shoulders up and back with the weight, you move the OTHER end of the link by driving your hips forward.

Won't this push your knees forward? It would, except you're straightening them at the same time. It's retarded, but kind of think of it like a humping motion, power your hips forward and straightening up like you are dirty dancing behind some hot chick or something. Drive hips forward and get your butt under the bar.

It is literally hard to get down parallel sometimes squatting like this. Your hips flexors, well, flex so much during this motion that you almost have to try and "push" your butt down!!! The weight literally can't get you all the way down sometimes, if you are making this type of motion. You almost have to think about finishing the motion yourself and pushing your butt down and back. The incredible amount of tension that is stored there can then be used to power out of the hole and blast forward, under the bar, while you are straightening up.

Of course, in a real box squat, you release this tension when you sit for just a minute. And it makes it hard to blast forward and straighten up, because you lose all your stored energy. But by becoming stronger like this, when you do your regular squat like this, you'll have all that extra tension to call on, stored in your hip flexors. I feel that storing a bunch of tension in your hip flexors, which are big and bulky and firmly attached to your pelvis, rather than in your comparatively small and delicate patellar tendons, which are attached to your tiny kneecaps, I feel that it is much safer.

Try it light and concentrate on thrusting under as you straighten up. If you squat "up" your back will still be bent and you're screwed. If you reverse the "squatting back" motion and squat "forward" and power under the bar, you are getting back in a strong position.

Try these motions with very light weight (maybe 135) and just screw around and see how recruitment changes. It's a lot easier than trying to maintain your blance with no weight! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Everyone's body is different, but see how these things make you feel. I have stretch marks on my hip flexors. I kid you not. My pants don't fit there anymore. And there is a reason for that, and it's my stance. To me, that says omething. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This kind of stuff, this is one reason I get sick of magazines with a bunch of fluff, ads, crap and their "super shredder cable workout!" bidness. Big compound movements are an area where you have a starting point and then there is NO substitute for going and freaking DOING the movement and seeing how changes affect your body. You don't look like everyone else, so why would you squat exactly like everyone else? Your bodies are all different. SO you have these variables like width, foot direction, all this crap, and you have to go knock it out and see what ya like. I have done this, and these posts are what I have learned from...

1) Reading to try and get information on these things and then...
2) Going and squatting! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Good luck. Continue to post questions in the thread...I almost prefer that to a PM, so everyone can see the answer.

[Coz]

I followed the westside routine for about 3 months and got some crazy results that I already posted. After injuring my rotator cuff(not related to training) I switched to a lower intensity hypertrophy workout but when it completely heals and I can bench properly again I will continue the westside routine.

Despite popular belief I also increased my size while strength training. Westside routine does include assistance work which focuses on hypertrophy as well.

[Big Dan]

This is definitely going to take some tinkering, but I can already see what you mean about the CG of shifting as you move you stance wider. Also, the lack of pressure on my knees with a wider stance is unbelievable. Granted, I'm standing here in casual business attire trying this, but I can really feel the difference. I'm just itching to get into the rack and play around with this now.

[ QUOTE ]
It is literally hard to get down parallel sometimes squatting like this. Your hips flexors, well, flex so much during this motion that you almost have to try and "push" your butt down!!! The weight literally can't get you all the way down sometimes, if you are making this type of motion. You almost have to think about finishing the motion yourself and pushing your butt down and back. The incredible amount of tension that is stored there can then be used to power out of the hole and blast forward, under the bar, while you are straightening up.

[/ QUOTE ]
I noticed this before I even read it. I started thinking "This is all well and good, but I can't even get parallel." You really almost have to do a reverse squat (for lack of a better term or idea) to get your butt down to the point of having your shins perpendicular to the floor and your thighs parallel.

The feeling is definitely more in your upper leg (mid-thigh and above) and your hips. I can see why your pants don't fit right. You're recruiting muscles you don't normally use. Doing these to pre-fatigue the legs will be a great addition to my workout so that I can concentrate on really tearing the quads up with lighter (less stress on the knee) front squats and then sampling in some leg extensions to burn them off (I know, machines! So sue me! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Also, I should note that in trying these, I threw a yard stick down on the ground to see how far apart my feet were and I was at about 3' (36"). JP was talking about doing these with the outsides of his feet at about 42". When I moved my feet out to that depth, you really, really feel it in your hips and upper thighs. It's almost impossible to not keep a straight shin and your knees definitely don't feel the pressure. It's looks and feels awkward at first, but even after experimenting around with it for 5 minutes or so, I can see how it would work.

After working these into your routine for a while, did you notice that getting out of the whole was a lot easier for you? I would assume that since you A) are creating that mind-muscle connection with your hip flexors and B) hitting your legs in a different way that most definitely is felt "in the hole" that your strength at the bottom of the movement is definitely increased. The reason I ask is because, on a regular squat, the bottom portion is definitely my weak point and is what keeps me from increasing my weights. I always just chalked it up to having weak legs in general, but I'm now starting to understand the different parts of your leg that are used in the different portions of the squat.

This Westside thing is really starting to make sense.../forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

More experimentation to be done...

[goldmill]

[ QUOTE ]
COZ said:
I followed the westside routine for about 3 months and got some crazy results that I already posted. After injuring my rotator cuff(not related to training) I switched to a lower intensity hypertrophy workout but when it completely heals and I can bench properly again I will continue the westside routine.

Despite popular belief I also increased my size while strength training. Westside routine does include assistance work which focuses on hypertrophy as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

YOu mind posting those results again? I must have missed them.

Pretty interesting stuff JP.

[sta63bmx]

[ QUOTE ]
COZ said:
Despite popular belief I also increased my size while strength training. Westside routine does include assistance work which focuses on hypertrophy as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome! I think the pre-fatigue you always get from the compound part of the workouts definitely makes the assistance part more useful. Did you have a link to your results from that program? Also, how did your injury come about? I got hurt during a maximal effort back day doing rack pulls from just a couple inches off the floor. I think I stayed too heavy too long that day. I am wondering if for non-AS users of this program, if it isn't best to almost reign in the intensity a little bit. Two people definitely isn't convergent statistics, but I'd be interested to know what happened with you.

[ QUOTE ]
Big Dan said:
This is definitely going to take some tinkering, but I can already see what you mean about the CG of shifting as you move you stance wider. Also, the lack of pressure on my knees with a wider stance is unbelievable. Granted, I'm standing here in casual business attire trying this, but I can really feel the difference. I'm just itching to get into the rack and play around with this now.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...I can envision coworkers peeking over your cube wall going "What the....?" It's the fooling around that definitely lets you feel where the effort comes from, I think.

[ QUOTE ]
I noticed this before I even read it. I started thinking "This is all well and good, but I can't even get parallel."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's totally weird! Now think about storing all that tension in your knees. Ugh. I really have to push back to get all the way down. It makes you really sproingy down there. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It's looks and feels awkward at first, but even after experimenting around with it for 5 minutes or so, I can see how it would work.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more comfortable with a bar. I have a hard time doing the motions without a bar on my back.

[ QUOTE ]
After working these into your routine for a while, did you notice that getting out of the hole was a lot easier for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It did seem to get easier, and it seemed to take at least a little bit of the load off my back. I am not sure if the increased power out of the hole was due to more strength, or simply due to the increased assistance from my hip flexors. I definitely noticed an increase in speed after a while. At 185 or so, it's at the point where I can drive the bar up hard enough to get it airborne, which really hurts when it lands. lol I feel like it has helped the bottom half of my power clean (although I can't substantiate that too much), and also the lower half of my deadlift. If you watched the 225x20 clip, there is more pop low down than I used to have.

Squatting wide in jeans is also not recommended, btw, unless you enjoy the world watching your blue boxers billow in the breeze...

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
goldmill said:
YOu mind posting those results again? I must have missed them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a past post of mine:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=workout&Number=494691&Foru m=All_Forums&Words=westside&Match=Entire%20Phrase& Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=494691&Sea rch=true#Post494691

[Coz]

[ QUOTE ]
[b][i]sta63bmx said: Awesome! I think the pre-fatigue you always get from the compound part of the workouts definitely makes the assistance part more useful. Did you have a link to your results from that program? Also, how did your injury come about? I got hurt during a maximal effort back day doing rack pulls from just a couple inches off the floor. I think I stayed too heavy too long that day. I am wondering if for non-AS users of this program, if it isn't best to almost reign in the intensity a little bit. Two people definitely isn't convergent statistics, but I'd be interested to know what happened with you.


[/ QUOTE ]

I posted my results in the previous post b4 I read yours.
I injured my shoulder playing with my nephews in the pool! lol I think the pool was too cold I was tired from working out and I was throwing them around over-head, that did it! lol /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think if u follow the program to the tee it will be too much for a non AS user to continue for too long, but with a 1 week break every couple months it is definetely doable. I was making strength gains even when working out 6 days a week (1 speed bench, 1 speed squat, 1 max bench, 1 max squat, 2 active recovery).

Even now when doing a bb routine I still use the Glute-Ham Raise, Pull through's and reverse hypers, they are the best!

[sta63bmx]

Excellent gains, Coz. I experienced a 20 lb bench gain in a couple months on the program, up from 205, but didnt not have a chance to really get on it with the back injury.

I am nearing completion on my squat rack, and I think I will be able to (somehow) rig up my own reverse hyper, so this summer I am going to really try to hit the program hard.

I really need to take some of my own advice on bench and start playing with my form a little again. I always do "medium grip" with my hands just inside the suicide rings, simply because I can always get back to that width. however, I think it may be in my best interests to narrow my grip a little and take more advantage of my triceps.

Once I get back into it, I'll try to keep track of what I do to make sure I'm not overtraining. I don't know if it's more useful to take a week off now and then or drop the intensity. I would almost lean towards taking a break and making a "light week" at the end of every 3 week cycle, but I am not sure what to do, and won't know until I really start to hit it more.

Coz, be sure to get your results up here once you get back on it, and let's see if we can't figure out some more guidelines for applying their methods to drug-free lifting. I feel that with a little more recovery time, the methods will work just as well and just as safely.

It seems like they are really trying to train your neuromuscular system at least as much as your muscles themselves! Neat stuff.

[Coz]

Your bench grip should be varied. However lean towards a narrow grip more often. On speed bench days I would use narrow/med and wide grip, mostly medium.

On max effort bench days I used; Close Grip Bench/Incline Close Grip Bench/3 Board Presses/2 Board Presses/Floor Presses/Rack Presses/JM Presses...I also used chains on my floor presses.

Speed Squat days are always the same with low box squats. Max Effort Squat days; Good Morning/Front Squats/Box Squats/Variations of Deadlifts etc...

I probably wont start this type of training until August, but when I do I will let u know of my progress.

[Coz]

Oh yah I forgot to ask u...if u find a way to build a reverse hyper machine let me know how it is. I need to find a better way to do them, right now I do them in a very unorthodox manner lol.

I also want to build a sled so if u have any tips let me know.

[sta63bmx]

I'll think about the reverse hyper. I really want one. It would be simple to build a tall table to lay on, but I am unsure about doing the part that carries the weight. I will think about it, also a glute-ham raise rig, if possible.

My squat rack should be finished by the end of next week, so I'll get pix up. (knock on wood...)

[Coz]

Right now I do reverse hypers on a tall table with weights attached to my ankes with a chain through the plates. It is not the best way but thats all I have until I either construct or order a reverse hyper machine.

Glute Ham Raises are easier for me to do since my bench has one of those removable attachements to hold your feet for declines. I can adjust that just right to hold my ankles and I can do them right on the bench. I cant do them with any weight yet, they are extremely difficult as is.

Gotta get me a sled! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[sta63bmx]

Have you checked with elitefts.com or other powerlifting-oriented places? I don't think they're too expensive. If that failed, I bet a machine shop could take a piece of 1/8" plate and weld a piece of 2" pipe on it and put a bend in one end with a brake for you for less than fifty bucks. If you showed them a drawing, I bet they could hack one out for you pretty quick. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'll give some more thought to the reverse hyper rig. I have a tall workbench in my garage with cabinets under each end, so it's just open under the bench in the middle. I am sure I could fab up a long straight piece that could hold weights on the bottom and be pinned at the top to pivot. I'd just need a cushion up on the table for when I did them. let me look more at pictures of the machines on the web.

[Big Dan]

I finally got to play around with this type of squatting this morning. Granted, I didn't have a box to work with, but I was able to watch my side profile in a mirror, so I could see where to go.

The results I found were that I definitely felt it more in my hip flexors, glutes, and hammies. The upper quad (where it tapers into your hip) was also hit, but the lower quad (around the knee) didn't feel stressed at all. This sensation was the exact opposite of when I do regular stance squats.

I couldn't believe the stretch I felt in my hip flexors. It felt like I had two huge rubber bands attached to me and when I squatted, I was stretching them. This sensation gave me MUCH more control deep in the hole and I can see how this helps you in the long run when you're doing regular squats. I'd drop down to parallel and then it almost felt like the "rubber hands" (hip flexors) did all the work to get me back up. Recruitting these muscles during regular squat work should definitely help me A) stable myself deep in the hole and B) begin my ascent from my deepest part of the movement.

I do have a few questions for you guys though. As I was watching myself on the side, I noticed that my shins were not perfectly perpendicular to the floor. My knees were just about directly above my mid-foot to toe area. Not that much of a forward angle, but a forward angle none the less. I felt like If I went any farther back that I'd lose it backwards. Any suggestions on how to get my shin perpendicular? Are you guys perfectly perpendicular, or do you have a little forward lean still? Either way, my knee didn't hurt at all. I love it. Doing these and light front squats worked out great!

[sta63bmx]

I have a hard time controlling my shins, too. The only way I've found to really do it is to sit on a box and fix everything how I like it in a mirror and then remember where the box hits my butt and squat back and just keep working farther and farther back until I'm getting the shin angle I want. I never get it on the first couple of reps. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif You can squat back and use the box as a reference without relaxing your hip flexors and doing a true box squat, or you can actually sit on the box. But it is still hard for me to control my shins perfectly, especially with no box. It feels so exaggerated to me when I do the movement. Still, though, your toes are behind your knees, and it will probably feel better in the long run.

I had a conversation with my brother-in-law Saturday regarding this. He plays college football for an NAIA school, and obviously they squat a lot. However, he said they get critiqued if they squat too wide, and they've always been trained to squat with their toes pointing in the same direction as their legs. He said it's bad for your knees to do otherwise, but I just don't agree with that. I would think that if it was bad for my knees, I'd feel something strange and unnatural. I also wonder why they would get criticized for squatting wide and trying to recruit as much muscle and power as possible. It makes me wonder sometimes if people who run strength programs in this country honestly read up on powerlifting techniques or if they really stick close to more old-fashioned methods of training. I'm not sure.

Granted, squatting narrow and loading your knees up a lot and turning your feet funny, yes, that hurts. I wonder if keeping your knees back far enough lowers the tension in your knees to the point where it isn't a problem.

I also discussed this with my cousin on Saturday (the same guy who fixed my back), the differences between squatting like we've described and more of an "olympic" squat. He has an MS in kines, and works as a performance/rehab personal trainer at a small outfit in town. Let me try and recap our conversation and kind of describe what's happening in the wide-stance, toes-forward squat...

Hip Flexors: As he explained it, two of the main muscles are the rectus femoris part of the quad (big one laying on top), and its...proximal (I think) insertion is at the thigh, its distal insertion at the knee. THen there is the...he called is the "soaz", pretty sure he is referring to the "iliopsoas muscles" which are comprised of the psoas major muscles, which connect the femur to (I think) the spine or maybe the pelvis. One of them (the psoas) is responsible for straight up hip flexion (I'm pretty sure), while the rectus femoris (I think) also gets stretched a little more when you rotate your feet in. Evidently either the femur rotates slightly when you point your toes straight forward or something, which creates a lot of tension.

I was curious as to why hip flexors would be of any use in rising from a squat, which seems to be thigh extension. Part of the explanation (which I only dimly understood) was that in these two-joint muscles, an action like squatting (lower insertion is fixed in space) is mostly only moving the upper insertion. Also, since the lower insertion is fixed in a pretty relaxed position (knee straight up and down or behind perpendicular), when the muscle contracts, the place where tendons cross the knee is not put under as much stress as if the tendons were already stretched tightly across the knee (knees forward of toes), which is why this motion feels better in your knees.

Looking a little more for info, I ran across this tidbit. "The iliopsoas muscles are also important antigravity postural muscles, which help to maintain erect posture at the hip joints." So I suppose that cranking tension in them is one reason it's difficult to get all the way down at the bottom.

http://www.geocities.com/medinotes/mmhipthg.htm

I just don't believe that turning your toes out of the plane of your leg is "bad" in this case. I wonder if it is a case where this stance lowers the tension in the patellar tendons to the point where it's safe to do this, but it would be bad otherwise. I wish I understood this in more detail.

I am just curious to how many strength athletes out there (and strength coaches!) really make an effort to understand the complex workings of their joints, and how many people just do the same things other athletes have done for generations. Maybe part of it is experience, too, and a reluctance to use new methods or change methods. I dunno.

The strength coach at this same college also wants to get rid of the sets of chains that they purchased, and they don't do box squats either. Look, I'm not a pro-athlete, and I don't know it all. But I know they do plenty of lyometric training. WHy wouldn't you also do speed days and get away from "squat til you drop" workouts for hypertrophy?

One of the UIUC football players came to CRCE to lift one day, and he borrowed some chalk from me. I asked him what kind of work they did to strengthen stabilizers and asked if they ran speed days, what kind of lifting schemes they had....he was so pissed off when he replied that I was honestly taken aback. He absolutely blasted their strength training program, called it stupid. It seemed like a lot of their stuff was oriented in some ways around hypertrophy-style training. His comment was that "people should come to the gym to get big and fast, not big and slow." This is a Division I school. Some of Master Simmons' stories involve pro teams sticking with old-fashioned methods of training. I am kind of confused by this. It seems like strength coaches for strength sports would really know this subject best, but I wonder sometimes if people don't just get stuck in their old habits and old ways. I dunno.

Anyways. If anybody else can shed more light on the mystical actions of the hip flexors, post it. In the meantime, we'll just continue to exploit it, even though we don't necessarily understand it. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Blux]

this post cut into my precious sleep time but it was worth every minute of it. i must have read it 5 times now or so. only thing i miss are videos. JP, where are the videos! maybe next christmass. (dream dream dream)

naturally, this thread deserves a

<u>bump</u>

[sta63bmx]

Do these threads ever die? I suffer from this weird syndrome where threads from my past keep coming back to haunt me. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What kind of videos?

[westsidebb24]

Its nice to see support for Westside /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Nice post man

[sta63bmx]

Thanks for the kind words. I am but a weak practicioner of their methods on a journey to find exactly what works for me.

I have come to the opinion over the last couple years that Westside training is more of a training philosophy than a training split. Find the weak points, get fast, and get in shape!

A lot of people talk a lot of crap about Louie Simmons, but I think he knows what's going on. Not everybody is an old school Ernie Frantz, and even he shook up powerlifting in his time with the canvas squat suit.

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the kind words. I am but a weak practicioner of their methods on a journey to find exactly what works for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

An 1130 total at 180 is nothing to be ashamed of my man, especially if it was done at a meet. Thats what most people don't get, is to get a HIGH total at a MEET...is SO much harder then just maxing in the gym. I was at a total like that years ago myself and thought "Boy do I have a long way to go" Now, here I am years later, and I STILL have a long ways to go. If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? What organization(s) do you compete in if any? I've trained under the WS principles going on 5 years now and have competed in the USAPL, and USPF.

[ QUOTE ]
I have come to the opinion over the last couple years that Westside training is more of a training philosophy than a training split. Find the weak points, get fast, and get in shape!

[/ QUOTE ]

To a point yes, but remember where a great deal of Louie's idea's came from.....HARD SCIENCE /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people talk a lot of crap about Louie Simmons, but I think he knows what's going on. Not everybody is an old school Ernie Frantz, and even he shook up powerlifting in his time with the canvas squat suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its human nature to attack what they don't understand. And most people don't understand how people in a 20x40ft gym can be so DOMINANT in the world of powerlifting.

[sta63bmx]

These are all gym lifts, but at least they're raw, if you don't count the belt and wraps. I got 405 on squat without the wraps, so I didn't get much there.

I'm 29 going on 50. Ha, this year is my first meet. We're going to a push/pull in ([---]). Louis. Our team (Illini Powerlifting) competes mostly in AAPF, APF, and WABDL.

I have been through a lot of heated discussion with our team about some of my training methods. I just about always trained alone, and only started power training for serious last summer, but I've been lifting for almost four years. We have some pretty strong guys on the team, most of whom are devotees of progressive overload. I am lifting more old-fashioned right now, just to try it and see how it goes.

I think I got away from working with heavy enough weight on ME days, and I have been plateaued for maybe 2-3 months on my lifts. I figured to get people off my back I might as well try something different for a while.

I would really like to go back to a westside split for summer training, but I don't feel like dealing with all the drama. If I had better numbers, it would help a lot. I'm still kind of torn.

http://www.chicagopowerlifting.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=818

If you get about to January of this year, I start taking a lot of crap over my methods. Rack squats and a lot of close-grip bench are the two biggest things that have helped, so I figure at least going more old school won't kill me.

One thing that drives me f-ing nuts is that some of the people are so paranoid about overtraining and how my old split was doing "too much". But my work capacity is a LOT higher than plenty of guys who are way stronger than me, because of the split.

ARGH! I don't want to get into all the drama here. That's my other workout journal, like this one, but with diff comments and less BS.

This summer is the time to step up and quit being a loser and get some respect for the split.

I have Zatsiorsky's book, and it was a great read. I'd like Verkoshansky and Medeveyeveyeyeyeyeyev whatever, but I'm low on funds. Oh well.

The split was just fun, anyways. I really enjoy the westside split. For me, it was very easy to follow, and I have a feeling I'll fall back into it after the meet, but I need to work harder and start making more progress.

Part of what bugged me was that the journal started off with people all being down with it, and then everything kind of changed. I'll be honest, lifting hasn't been much fun at all for about two months, because of drama. If I could just start making more progress, it would help a lot.

MUST WORK HARDER.

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]


The split was just fun, anyways. I really enjoy the westside split. For me, it was very easy to follow, and I have a feeling I'll fall back into it after the meet, but I need to work harder and start making more progress.

Part of what bugged me was that the journal started off with people all being down with it, and then everything kind of changed. I'll be honest, lifting hasn't been much fun at all for about two months, because of drama. If I could just start making more progress, it would help a lot.

MUST WORK HARDER.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I prefer to train by myself, except for my ME Bench movements, thats about the only time I'll train with my team.

All the top PLers in the WORLD.....Vogelpohl, Bolton, Shick, Frank, etc.....ALL have VERRRRYYYY unorthodox routines...but you know what? It WORKS for them. IF the cars not broken, don't fix it man. I still remember Louie one day yelling at Chuck because he kept going with more and more band tension on box squats.....

"Man, it PISSES me off. I can't tell him ANYTHING anymore! Ah well, as long as his squat keeps goin up, I guess I can't say ([---])"

THAT was a pretty good laugh let me tell you!

Keep doing what your doing bro. Where's your stick points at if you don't mind me asking....maybe I can help ya out.

[sta63bmx]

The sticking points are in my journal. I am still not at the point where I can identify WHAT is causing the sticking point and take action to correct it, nor am I very good at identifying what is working for me. I am weak enough that I need to get in the habit of taking weight more frequently, and I really need a lot more practice with heavy singles on squat and bench.

Close grip bench and rack squats were the two magic bullet lifts over the last several months. Now the nature of my lifts has changed and it's time to figure what's weak now.

Chuck V. has mentioned that he is weak at the top on squat, so he runs perverse tension. Someone like me, there's no point in that. I'm still trying to learn the skill of identifying what works for me.

I did also build a sled this spring, that was fun.

More GPP = more work capacity = more ability to go in and pound through a crapload of assistance work for the sole purpose of killing the weak link! If you're so out of shape that you hav to rest five minutes between sets, how can you do that?

Extra workouts = t3h w1n!

[Vlad]

[ QUOTE ]

I have Zatsiorsky's book, and it was a great read. I'd like Verkoshansky and Medeveyeveyeyeyeyeyev whatever, but I'm low on funds. Oh well.


[/ QUOTE ]

Zatsiorisky's book is totally awesome, I'm reading it right now. It's amzing how something so, relatively old, can still be so new.

I don't like how some of T-nations writers are using his methods and calling them for theirs. That is pretty annoying.

[sta63bmx]

Like who? Any of the Westside crew will own Zatsiorsky as one of the Four Horsemen. Thibaudeau, Berardi, King, and DeFranco all know where it came from, too.

I really want copies of Verkoshansky's book and Medeveyev's books. I can never spell his name right. And SUPERTRAINING! I'm still trying to finish Tudor Bompa's periodization books.

I don't really like Tudor Bompa's linear periodization. Conjugate periodization makes more sense to me, and I like that kind of cycling better anyways.

[Vlad]

I answer this in your Journal to avoid off-topics in this thread.

[sta63bmx]

Cmon, Vlad, hijacking is a time-honored tradition at ABC. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I'll check it out. Prepare for teleportation to workout journal.

[Vlad]

[ QUOTE ]
Cmon, Vlad, hijacking is a time-honored tradition at ABC. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I'll check it out. Prepare for teleportation to workout journal.

[/ QUOTE ]

LoL! I'm preparing for the b-party. I'll post tomorrow ^_^

Abort the mission teleport ^^

[sta63bmx]

Roger, over, returning to base.

[kwood34]

Do powerlifters concern themselves with contracting the muscle at all? Or do you just try and get the weight up as fast as you can? Or maybe you work on contraction with your assistance exercises?

[sta63bmx]

What exactly are you asking about with regards to "contraction"?

If you're asking about the mind-muscle connection, yes and no. On every rep of a main exercise or heavier assistance exercise, I want it to be as explosive as possible. For really small stuff like rear delts or rotators, I'll take it slower and try to focus on hitting that group hard. I don't do very many asistance exercises that could be considered isolation work. Maybe skullcrushers or some kind of triceps work, or barbell rows, in those cases I'm trying to really work the specific muscles, I guess.

Now as far as the mid-muscle connection in main exercises I'm only concerned about making sure I do the movements properly. For example...

Bench: spreading/bending the bar, elbow movement, lat functioning, these are all specific contractions which need to occur the right way at the right time to make the lift as easy as possible.

Squat: spreading the floor, keeping the upper back tight and chest out, these are specific contractions which must be held to keep from gtting bent over.

In powerlifting, all that matters is getting the most weight up legally. So if a bench day leaves my triceps dead and does NOTHING for my chest, but the lift is going up, I don't care. Powerlifting trains movements, so learning to flex the right things at the right time and hold other things flexed through the whole lift, those tasks are only important because they are part of proper form. I could care less if my bench makes my hamstrings hurt, as long as the lift keeps going up!

[kwood34]

[ QUOTE ]
What exactly are you asking about with regards to "contraction"?

If you're asking about the mind-muscle connection, yes and no. On every rep of a main exercise or heavier assistance exercise, I want it to be as explosive as possible. For really small stuff like rear delts or rotators, I'll take it slower and try to focus on hitting that group hard. I don't do very many asistance exercises that could be considered isolation work. Maybe skullcrushers or some kind of triceps work, or barbell rows, in those cases I'm trying to really work the specific muscles, I guess.

Now as far as the mid-muscle connection in main exercises I'm only concerned about making sure I do the movements properly. For example...

Bench: spreading/bending the bar, elbow movement, lat functioning, these are all specific contractions which need to occur the right way at the right time to make the lift as easy as possible.

Squat: spreading the floor, keeping the upper back tight and chest out, these are specific contractions which must be held to keep from gtting bent over.

In powerlifting, all that matters is getting the most weight up legally. So if a bench day leaves my triceps dead and does NOTHING for my chest, but the lift is going up, I don't care. Powerlifting trains movements, so learning to flex the right things at the right time and hold other things flexed through the whole lift, those tasks are only important because they are part of proper form. I could care less if my bench makes my hamstrings hurt, as long as the lift keeps going up!

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Thats what I wanted to know. If I am going to max out on bench I shouldn't give a rat's ([---]) if I am contracting my chest muscles. Just power it up.

[westsidebb24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What exactly are you asking about with regards to "contraction"?

If you're asking about the mind-muscle connection, yes and no. On every rep of a main exercise or heavier assistance exercise, I want it to be as explosive as possible. For really small stuff like rear delts or rotators, I'll take it slower and try to focus on hitting that group hard. I don't do very many asistance exercises that could be considered isolation work. Maybe skullcrushers or some kind of triceps work, or barbell rows, in those cases I'm trying to really work the specific muscles, I guess.

Now as far as the mid-muscle connection in main exercises I'm only concerned about making sure I do the movements properly. For example...

Bench: spreading/bending the bar, elbow movement, lat functioning, these are all specific contractions which need to occur the right way at the right time to make the lift as easy as possible.

Squat: spreading the floor, keeping the upper back tight and chest out, these are specific contractions which must be held to keep from gtting bent over.

In powerlifting, all that matters is getting the most weight up legally. So if a bench day leaves my triceps dead and does NOTHING for my chest, but the lift is going up, I don't care. Powerlifting trains movements, so learning to flex the right things at the right time and hold other things flexed through the whole lift, those tasks are only important because they are part of proper form. I could care less if my bench makes my hamstrings hurt, as long as the lift keeps going up!

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Thats what I wanted to know. If I am going to max out on bench I shouldn't give a rat's ([---]) if I am contracting my chest muscles. Just power it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speed is something thats VERY important for strenth, and is often overlooked in bodybuilding. While some movements in the bodybuilding world are done explosively, the majority of BBers I see really focus on SLOOOOOOWWW Controlled reps....which is obviously a goal if Time Under Tension is what they're after.

For powerlifters, we have workouts dedicated specifically to develop explosive strength and speed. I for example am NOT the strongest guy on the team of guys that I lift with. Several of them outlift me in certain movements (skullcrushers, JM press, Lunges, etc) But for maximal lifts I crush them. I base a great deal of that to my speed. On speed days, you can TELL the difference, because my sets are more explosive then theirs.

As far as maxing on bench, you still want to control the weight on the eccentric motion, but....the faster you lower the weight....the more energy you have available to reverse the movement.

Louie Simmons said it best to me years ago when I first started powerlifting:

"The faster the bar comes down, the faster it goes up!"

[Vlad]

Teleport time JP!