Christianity, leaving for college & alcohol

[FJ0]

I am graduating from high school in about a week and a half and will be leaving for college soon. My sister graduated last year and went up to UF (huge party school) last fall.

Anywayz, she claimed to be a Christian as well as many of her friends, and she just got home for the summer and showed me some pictures where her and all her friends are drinking beer and all this. And it really surprised me when she told me of all her friends, some of them my friends, who I thought were these sweet little innocent girls, who go off and are gettin' drunk. As a Christian I feel this is so wrong, especially since they claim to be Christians. Also many of my friends who are going to UF this fall I joke around with them because they haven't drank at all now, I joke that they'll be trying to get me to drink when I go up and visit. Even though they always say they're not gonna drink, this seems like it's actually gonna be that way now, but I was only joking. I was so surprised when my sister told me that my ex-girlfriend who was a hardcore Christian is up there drinking.

I've made it 4 years of high school without drinking alcohol, and plan on going through college too. I feel very strong in my faith and it's not something I'm unsure about.

She also told me that there's a saying up there, "Everytime a virgin graduates a brick falls from the sky." As a Christian, this bothers me as well because we as Christians are supposed to wait until we are married to have sex.

Anywayz, I don't know where the rest of you Christians stand on this issue, but I thought we all believed it's wrong. What can I say to her and my friends about not drinking alcohol and staying pure? I really want to get in their face about it, but I know that's not really that way to go about it. I feel like at least she's being honest with me so I shouldn't try to punish her. This bothers me so much, but I guess I'm just venting.

<font color="green"> Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise."
</font>
Are there any other good verses about not drinking that anyone knows of? Anyone got any words of advice? I know it's just reality that everyone goes up to college to drink and all, but us Christians are supposed to be different, we're supposed to stand out and set an example.

[schless]

First of all, kudos for you for abstaining throughout high school. That in and of itself is a feat. Temptation is a difficult thing, and many do succumb. Fortunately we have a Savior who died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.

I don't really think there's anything you can say to your sister at this point. At least not with words. You can, however, lead by example. Not just her, but others who may cross your path. You may be the only Bible some of the ever read, if you get my drift.

If you haven't already, you might want to locate the campus church of your religious affiliation and get hooked up with the pastor there. My stepdaughters go to U of Iowa, and their campus Lutheran church is quite active. Lots of students involved in the church there and their community. Get all that sorted out before you go if you can, so that way you can quickly get involved with the church there and surround yourself with other faithful Christians.

Good luck to you. And remember, sin does not necessarily mean we're unfaithful or not Christian. It's our nature as human beings to sin. But as Christians, those sins are forgiven. I hear lots of folks talking about how Christians are hypocrites because they go to church then they gossip, steal, or whatever. Being Christian doesn't mean being free from sin. There's only one who's free from sin, and that one is God. Fortunately he loved us enough to send his only Son to die for us and the forgiveness of our sins. Each day we wake and pray not to sin, but as humans, we continue to fail.

Like you said, thank goodness your sister feels comfortable enough to talk to you about it. Who knows when you might have an opportunity to say a word that would be helpful to her. And if nothing else, she at least has someone she trust that perhaps she'd go to in a time of need.

So you be an example, and remember, it's all in His hands.

[RichW]

Hey FJO,

I don't think that beer or wine is eivil in and of itself.
The first miracle Jesus preformed was turning water to wine. We know it was more than grape juice by the writings of John:
<font color="blue">John 2
10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
11This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him. </font>


I think the key is in the passge you provided:

[ QUOTE ]
Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise."

[/ QUOTE ]

Who ever is led astray by them. If you allow yourself to get caught up in the pursuit of the drink and putting it first in your life then I believe it is sinful. But having a few beers at a ball game or a glass of wine with dinner is not in my opinion a sin.
Further if you are around someone you know has a problem with drinking and you drink in front of them I think that is sinful because you are ignoring the well being of that person and can cause them to stunble or fall.

[sickbikes]

All you really can do is pray for your sister and her friends, God is the one who will change her heart. I will add her to my prayer list also. Please send me a pm with her name, age, school, etc.God bless you for staying faithful!

[groovechamp30]

I dont think alcohol is an evil in itself, but abusing it and sinning because you are drunk is definately evil.

[FJ0]

Thanks for the support everyone, I need that!

I agree that beer or wine isn't evil in itself, but I don't think it's good either.

<font color="green">1 Corinthians 10:31-32 "So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks, or the church of God." </font>

I highly doubt the drinking going on by college students is to the glory of God. My sister also mentioned she's afraid she started one of her friends into drinking, which is more like making someone stumble. Now it's not my place to judge so I won't, but I can't find a place where I think drinking is alright except maybe at a wedding or something.

Could anyone please give me an explanation or some good verses that give good reasons to or not to drink? I like having lots of backup to tell people why I don't drink.

Thanks everyone.

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey bro. I feel this topic has confused many. BUt the bible condemns drinking and gettting drunk. I hope this study helps you guys out.

The word "wine" appears more than two hundred times in the King James version of the Old Testament. This word was translated from a number of different Hebrew words.
The first biblical record of intoxication has to do with Noah, whom the Bible calls a "preacher of righteousness." Commenting on Noah's drunkenness, F. B. Meyer has written:

"Noah's sin reminds us how weak are the best of men; liable to fall, even after the most marvelous deliverances. The love of drink will drag a preacher of righteousness into the dust. Let us see to it that we fall not into this temptation ourselves; and that we tempt not others."

(1) The Hebrew words translated "wine" in the Bible do not always mean fermented or intoxicating wine.

(2) The Hebrew word yayin, most often translated "wine" in the Old Testament, means grape juice in any form -- fermented or unfermented. The true meaning can only be determined by the text.

(3) The Hebrew word tirosh, also translated "wine," in all but one possible case means "new wine," "unfermented wine." This word was used repeatedly in the original text in the places where wine has a good textual connotation.

(4) Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines."

Rulers were forbidden to use intoxicating wine.

"It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted" (Prov. 31:4,5).

Solomon gave a blanket command, setting forth the biblical principle that all fermented wine is to be avoided.

"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." (Prov. 23:31).

The word look as Solomon used it means "to lust for" or "to desire." He is simply saying that we are to have nothing to do with wine after it has fermented.

There are many Old Testament warnings about the effects of intoxicating wine.

Wine is a mocker.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise) (Prov. 20:1)

Heavy drinking brings poverty.

"For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags" (Prov. 23:21).

The use of intoxicating wine brings trouble physically and socially.

"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine" (Prov. 23:29,30).

Intoxicating wine ultimately harms the user.

"At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder" (Prov. 23:32).

Beverage alcohol is the companion of immorality and untruthfulness.

"Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things" (Prov. 23:33).

Tirosh, translated "wine" in the Old Testament, means new wine or grape juice. It sometimes refers to the juice still in the grapes before pressing. Consider these examples:

Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine" [tirosh] (Gen. 27:28).

Note the association with corn, speaking of the harvest.

"All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the Lotto, them have I given thee. And whatsoever is first ripe in the land, which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine; every one that is clean in thine house shall eat of it" (Num. 18:12,13).

The wine here (tirosh) is part of the offering of the firstfruits, that is, the earliest gatherings of the harvest. It is brought freshly pressed to the altar.

"And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee" (Deut. 7:13).

The use of tirosh in this text is again with corn and oil --part of the harvest. The reference is unmistakably to new wine, grape juice.

"That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil" (Deut. 11:14).

Note the gathering of corn and wine in the harvest with an unmistakable reference to the wine (tirosh) being juice still in the grapes -- unfermented wine.

And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine [tirosh], which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? (Judg. 9:13).

This interesting verse is part of Jotham's parable, in which the trees call to the vine to come and reign over them. But the vine refuses because it does not want to leave its wine, which cheers God and man. There is no doubt that the wine, or grape juice, is still in the grapes. It is in this unfermented state that wine cheers God and man, because it is part of the blessed abundant harvest.

"And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage" (Neh. 10:37).

Again, wine (tirosh) is spoken of as part of the offering of the firstfruits. Fermentation would have been impossible. If any doubts remain, perhaps Nehemiah 10:39 will settle them.

"For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God."

Isaiah further confirms Patton's findings.

"Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all" (Is. 65:8).

There is little wonder that Patton's study brought him to the conclusion that there are two kinds of wine -- fermented and unfermented. In this passage the wine is described as still being in the cluster, and "a blessing is in it."

Now read Joel's thrilling prophecy of millenial blessings.

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of ****tim" (Joel 3:18).

We shall drink wine in the kingdom -- new wine that drops from the vines in the vineyards that grow on the mountains. This wine is unfermented; it is not intoxicating.

And we shall share it together when Christ reigns as King.

While the Hebrew word tirosh is translated "wine" 38 times, the word used for wine most often in the Old Testament is yayin, which appears 141 times. Young's Analytical Concordance defines yayin as "what is pressed out, grape juice." In his article, "Did Jesus Turn Water Into Intoxicating Wine?" Lloyd Button writes:

"It should be made clear that the English word "wine" used in the Bible is a translation of a number of words in the Hebrew and Greek languages referring to various products of the vine. Some Bible dictionaries insist that the usual meaning of the word wine is fermented. "Yayin" in Hebrew and "oinos" in Greek are the general terms for wine, and as we note later in this article can refer to both fermented and unfermented wine."7

Patton quotes Prof. M. Stuart on the meaning of the word yayin.

In the Hebrew Scriptures the word yayin, in its broadest meaning, designates grape-juice, or the liquid which the fruit of the vine yields. This may be new or old, sweet or sour, fermented or unfermented, intoxicating or unintoxicating. The simple idea of grape-juice or vine-liquor is the basis and essence of the word, in whatever connection it may stand. The specific sense which we must often assign to the word arises not from the word itself, but from the connection in which it stands.8

Since the word juice appears only once in the Old Testament (in Song of Solomon 8:2, referring to the juice of a pomegranate), and since the geographical setting of the Scriptures is a land of vineyards where grape juice was plentiful, it is understandable that many of the biblical texts having to do with the fruit of the vine refer to grape juice in its unfermented state. This is often the case with the meaning of the word yayin (translated "wine").

Note how yayin speaks of unfermented wine in the following texts.

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine [yayin]: and he was the priest of the most high God" (Gen. 14:18).

Remembering that fermented wine was forbidden to the priests (Lev. 10:9,10), we conclude that the wine Melchizedek carried was unfermented grape juice -- wine that does not intoxicate.

"He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart" (Ps. 104:14,15).

Because of expressions that today are associated with the use of intoxicating beverages, the reader is likely to think that "making glad the heart of man" is similar to "feeling good" as a result of drinking wine. Nothing could be further from the truth. Fermented wine does not make a person glad; it simply induces sleep in some areas of his brain.

A reading of Psalm 4:7 shows that the source of gladness in one's heart may come from corn and wine, but that this gladness reaches its peak through appreciating God's goodness. In both texts, degrees of gladness are the result of appreciating God's provision. At its height, this gladness comes from understanding God's spiritual blessings. To a lesser degree, it is a result of God's care of man in giving the harvest of food, wine, and oil.

Jeremiah says:

"As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye wine, and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken" (Jer. 40:10).

This scene of the harvest calls for wine (yayin) to be brought in from the fields; it is to be gathered with the summer fruits. Therefore, it would be unfermented and nonintoxicating.

In his masterful work The Use of "Wine" in the Old Testament, Dr. Robert P. Teachout, associate professor of Old Testamnt at Detroit Baptist Divinity School, concludes his lengthy and detailed study of yayin in this way.

"Therefore, the unified idea which is inherent in the word yayin is not that of a "fermented wine" per se (with divine approval dependent upon an assumed restriction of the quantity ingested, an assumption which is not explicit anywhere in the Old Testament). Instead, the comprehensive idea which the word conveys is that of a "grape beverage" (with the implied fermentation or its lack to be determined objectively only from the divine approval or disapproval of the beverage indicated by any context)."9

In Teachout's judgment, yayin is intended to mean "grape juice" seventy-one times and "fermented wine" seventy times in the Old Testament.

Symbolically, intoxicating wine speaks of judgment and wrath. In contrast, nonintoxicating wine speaks of spiritual blessings.

"Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price" (Isa. 55:1).

William Patton says:

"In all the passages where good wine is named there is no lisp of warning, no intimations of danger, no hint of disapprobation, but always a decided approval.

How bold and strongly marked is the contrast:

The one the cause of intoxication, of violence, and of woes.

The other the occasion of comfort and peace.

The one the cause of irreligion and of self-destruction.

The other the devout offering of piety on the altar of God.

The one the symbol of divine wrath.

The other the symbol of spiritual blessings.

The one the emblem of eternal ****ation.

The other the emblem of eternal salvation."


The supposed riddle of the use of wine in the Old Testament is no longer a mystery. And it is encouraging to know that one does not have to be a master of the original languages to determine the type of wine spoken of in each text.

Charles Wesley Ewing explains:

"...if a reader will just consider the context surrounding the word he can easily understand whether the fermented or unfermented grape juice was intended. Wherever the use of wine is prohibited or discouraged it means the fermented wine. Where its use is encouraged and is spoken of as something for our good it means the unfermented."11

But what about the New Testament?

Didn't Jesus make wine?

Was fermented wine used in the first Communion service?

Does the New Testament sanction the use of beverage alcohol?

This question cannot be answered by appealing to the Greek language.

Oinos, the Greek word most often translated "wine" in the New Testament, refers to grape juice in all its forms -- unfermented and fermented, nonintoxicating and intoxicating.

In the Septuagint Version, oinos is used to translate both yayin and tirosh from the Hebrew text. We have already seen that these two words mean grape juice in any form, with tirosh particularly referring to new wine or wine of the harvest.

In the New Testament, then, as well as in the Old, an understanding of the word wine can only come through studying the contexts.

Jesus is associated with wine in the following New Testament settings.

(1) The parable of the wine and the wineskins (Matt. 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37 -- 39).

(2) Jesus' statement that He had come eating and drinking, and the public reaction to that statement (Matt. 11:19; Luke 7:33,34).

3) Jesus making wine at the wedding in Cana (John 2:3 -- 10).

(4) The Lord's Supper instituted (Matt. 26:27-29; Mark 14:23-25; Luke 22:17-20).

(5) Wine offered to Jesus on the cross (Mark 15:23). We will consider each of these biblical settings, in each case using the text that gives the greatest detail.
...thy love is better than wine (Song of Solomon 1:2).

"And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better (Luke 5:37-39).

The primary message of this parable does not concern wine, but salvation. The law was to be fulfilled, and the age of grace was to begin. John the Baptist had announced, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

Jesus was telling his hearers that law and grace were not to be mixed, and that salvation by grace would not be enhanced by adding legalism. One would be born again and receive eternal life entirely on the basis of faith. This wonderful message must not be considered simply an addition to the law; that would be like putting new wine into old bottles. G. H. Lang writes:

"If the Christian who has known this heavenly liberty and gladness returns to legality and externalism, even though it be copied from that of the Mosaic economy, he will presently give a display of the Lord's prediction in this passage. The worn-out system will break to pieces and he himself will lose his joy and strength."

In the case of wine, putting new wine into old bottles would hurry the fermentation and thus burst the bottles or wineskins. The aim was evidently to keep the new, unfermented wines sweet and nonalcoholic as long as possible. Old bottles would contain residues of yeast and would cause the wine to ferment quickly. William Patton comments:

"The new bottles or skins being clean and perfectly free from all ferment, were essential for preserving the fresh unfermented juice, not that their strength might resist the force of fermentation, but, being clean and free from fermenting matter, and closely tied and sealed, so as to exclude the air, the wine would be preserved in the same state in which it was put into those skins.

Columella, who lived in the days of the Apostles, in his recipe for keeping the wine "always sweet," expressly directs that the newest must be put in a "new amphora," or jar.

So then, the gospel must be kept pure, not mixed with legalism. But what about Luke 5:39? Does not Jesus say that the old wine is better?

Not at all. He simply says that one who has been drinking old wine says it is better. This shows the Lord's understanding of the habit-forming effect of beverage alcohol. His statement stands true today. Try to sell grape juice on skid row and you will probably have no takers. Those who drink old wine (intoxicating wine) prefer it.

They are hooked on it

The point of this parable is that the new wine (salvation) is better than the old wine (legalism). Jesus accurately predicted the reaction of his hearers. The Pharisees chose their legalism rather than the new life Christ offered them.

"And so these Pharisees would go away saying, "we are satisfied with the old wine," and legalists and worldlings are like that today. They are apparently content with what they are trying to enjoy down here and do not care what God offers them in Christ Jesus."3

The secondary message of this parable, then, actually argues for the superiority of new (unfermented) wine, using it as a picture of salvation.
Jesus eating and drinking, and the crowd's reaction

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! But wisdom is justified of all her children" (Luke 7:33-35).

Jesus contrasts Himself to John the Baptist, who was a Nazarite. Jesus was a Nazarene because He came from Nazareth, but He was not a Nazarite. Nazarites were people who had been called to live under a special vow, a totally different lifestyle, in order to show their total devotian to God. Among other things, they were to eat nothing made from grapes, including grape juice.

"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord: He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk" (Num. 6:1-4).

Jesus was not restricted by a Nazarite's vow. Therefore, He came eating grapes and drinking the fruit of the vine, all of which was called wine. This brought a reaction from His enemies. They called Him a gluttonous man and a winebibber (a tippler or heavy drinker).

But it is a mistake to accept the word of Jesus' enemies as truth. On two other occasions they said He had a devil (John 7:20 and John 8:48). Crowd reaction is certainly not safe ground for building sound doctrine. Jesus answered their charge by saying that God's wisdom is shown to be true by all who accept it. His righteous life would prove their accusations false.

Jesus making wine at the marriage feast in Cana

"And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him"(John 2:1-11).

The events surrounding Jesus' first miracle need little explanation. He had been invited to a wedding and had been accompanied by His disciples. During the feast following the ceremony, the host ran out of wine. Mary presented the problem to Jesus, and He provided wine enough for all the guests.

There are two important facts to keep in mind.

(1) The wine Jesus made did not conform to twentieth-century standards; it conformed only to the standards of that day. To those at the feast, all juice of the grape, fermented or unfermented, was considered wine.

(2) Whatever Jesus made that day was consistent with His character.

Jesus had come to fulfill the Scriptures. Scores of Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in His birth, life, death, and resurrection. The gospel declares this truth.

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures"(1 Cor. 15:3,4).

We have already seen that in the Old Testament, fermented wine symbolized wrath and judgment. Its use was prohibited. It is inconceivable, then, that Jesus would have violated this biblical principle by making more than 120 gallons of intoxicating wine to be served to the wedding guests.

In 1907, Dr. R. A. Torrey wrote:

"The wine provided for the marriage festivities at Cana failed. A cloud was about to fall over the joy of what is properly a festive occasion. Jesus came to the rescue. He provided wine, but there is not a hint that the wine He made was intoxicating. It was fresh-made wine. New-made wine is never intoxicating. It is not intoxicating until sometime after the process of fermentation has set in. Fermentation is a process of decay. There is not a hint that our Lord produced alcohol, which is a product of decay or death. He produced a living wine uncontaminated by fermentation."

One of the great Bible scholars of this century, Dr. William Pettingill, wrote:

"I do not pretend to know the nature of the wine furnished by our Lord at the wedding of Cana, but I am satisfied that there was little resemblance in it to the thing described in the Scriptures of God as biting like a serpent and stinging like an adder (Prov. 23:29-32). Doubtless rather it was like the heavenly fruit of the vine that He will drink new with His own in His Father's kingdom (Matt. 26:29). No wonder the governor of the wedding feast at Cana pronounced it the best wine kept until the last. Never before had he tasted such wine, and never did he taste it again."

Isn't that characteristic of our Lord? For believers, the best is yet to come!

Those who base their use of beverage alcohol on the miracle at Cana are on shaky ground. The excellent commentary Barnes On the New Testament places the burden where it belongs.

"No man should adduce this instance in favour of drinking wine unless he can prove that the wine made in the 'water pots' of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink".

The water pots of Cana were filled with kingdom wine and the earthly supply is exhausted, not to be replenished until the King returns.

The Lord's Supper

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom"(Matt. 26:26-29).

Those who conclude that fermented wine was used in the first Communion service do so without biblical support. Jesus spoke only of "the cup" and "the fruit of the vine."

Is fermented wine the fruit of the vine? Charles Wesley Ewing argues:

"Fermented wine is not a product of the vine. Chemically it is entirely different from the sweet and unfermented grape juice. Fermented wine is 14% alcohol, and it has other constituents that are not found in the fresh grape juice. Alcohol does not grow on the vine. It is not a vine product. Alcohol is the product of decay, the product of fermentation. It is produced by the process of spoiling."

The fruit of the vine used in the first Communion service speaks of the blood of Christ. Moses called unfermented grape juice the "pure blood of the grape" (Deut. 32:14). Decay has not taken place in fresh grape juice, and that fact is vital in the symbol of the blood of Christ. David prophesied that the body of Christ would be totally preserved from decay or corruption.

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption"(Ps. 16:10).

Peter says this is a reference to the resurrection of Christ (Acts 2:31). So we are given the assurance both prophetically and by the New Testament Scriptures that the body of Christ experienced no corruption or decay. It would be improper, then, for a product of decay (fermented wine) to be used to symbolize His blood. Commenting on this text in his book The King of the Jews, Dr. John R. Rice says:

"The cup the disciples drank at the Lord's supper is nowhere called wine, but "the fruit of the vine." We believe it was simply grape juice. Even if the word wine had been used, wine in the Bible means grape juice, whether fermented or unfermented. Fermented wine, with microbes of decay, would not picture the perfect blood of a sinless Christ."

William Patton concurs, stating:

"Leaven, because it was corruption, was forbidden as an offering to God... If leaven was not allowed with the sacrifices, which were the types of the atoning blood of Christ, how much more would it be a violation of the commandment to allow leaven, or that which was fermented, to be the symbol of the blood of atonement? We cannot imagine that our Lord, in disregard of so positive a command, would admit leaven into the element which was to perpetuate the memory of the sacrifice of himself, of which all the other sacrifices were but types."

Fermented wine would have been out of place at the Lord's Supper for a number of reasons. Perhaps the most important has to do with the holy character of this experience. Remember that in the Old Testament, the priests were forbidden to use wine. Jesus is our great High Priest, the fulfiller of the Scriptures. We can be sure that He remained consistent when establishing the Communion service and therefore did not use intoxicating wine as the symbol of His blood.

The final statement of our Lord on the Communion service settles the issue. All Christians who take Communion are to do so in anticipation of the coming kingdom. We have already seen that the wine of the kingdom is unfermented. If we are to look forward to the wine of Eden and Cana during the kingdom, it would be inconsistent to use intoxicating wine when remembering the death of our Savior and King.

Wine offered to Jesus on the cross

"And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not" (Mark 15:23).

The wine offered to Jesus at the time of His crucifixion was, without doubt, intoxicating wine. Its purpose was to make the pain more bearable.

In His most trying hour, Jesus refused intoxicating wine.

And so should we.

The Bible forbids the use of wine as we know it today.
All wine?

Every drop.
"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright" (Prov. 23:31).

Medicinal use is the only exception (1 Tim. 5:23).

These studies have confirmed this: a study of wine in the Old Testament amd a study of Jesus and wine. Three sacred sources speak for total abstinence from intoxicants.

The person who abstains from alcoholic beverages is on solid biblical ground. This position is not popular. Nevertheless, it is the scriptural one.

But why does God withhold beverage alcohol from His children?

The answer may be found in Psalms 84:11, "...no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly."

Alcoholic beverages are not good for us. Therefore, our heavenly Father forbids their use.

[realjones]

[ QUOTE ]
FJ0 said: I know it's just reality that everyone goes up to college to drink and all, but us Christians are supposed to be different, we're supposed to stand out and set an example.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I think you have some major misconceptions. The majority of college students do not binge drink, in fact, on my campus, less than a third of the students drink more then 5 drinks a week.

Second, while I don't know you or where you are going to school, I think you are in for some major culture shock. If you go to college with an "im not going to drink and im going to stay a virgin till marriage attitude," expect to spend many Fri and Sat nights alone with your Bible. I'm not saying that you have to drink every night; it's that college is all about having an open attitude towards new things. Those kids (who are still christians by the way) are not out burning bibles, renouncing their faith, and worshipping Satan. They are out having fun. You ARE allowed to have fun as a Christian, in case you didn't know. I'm not saying alcohol is required, but it does help to get things rolling /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Try having a couple drinks once in a while /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif You are not going to go to hell for having a couple of Coronas after a rough week.

Third, I question your motives. Why exactly do you want to do this? because the Bible says so? The fact of the matter is, if you have accepted Jesus, you are going to heaven. End of story. The difference between you and those other kids who drink is that they are out enjoying the only life they are ever going to get (again i'm not saying go out and drink, but im not gonna deny that drinking is the preferred method of fun in college), while you are in your dorm room reading Genesis and praying.

Again, I don't know you. But it seems to me that you are very focused in this "I'm a christian and must remain a hardcore one" focus. And I can tell you right now that later on in life you will regret not exoeriencing the many things you could have experienced had you been a bit more open.

[John D.]

I got some suggestions for you even though I am not the most religious of people. To take care of the drinking situation, simply offer to be a designated driver. Works everytime! Plus you'll get into all the parties for half price or for free cause no one wants to have a major accident.

The problem you'll really come across is drugs. Stay away from them! You are there for an education not to get high. Always remember that. When I was in college (a year ago) I wrote inspirational stuff on my walls from Rocky and stuff. In your case you might want to do something from the Bible. Oh yeah, don't preach to the ones that are using. It's a waste of time and not worth the confrontation. These people are immature and foolish. You don't need them messing with you when you have an exam to study for.

If all these things don't work think about this. Drugs and alcohol will kill your body building! That's what I used to keep forced. No need to bust you butt in the gym if you are going to screw it up at night.

Finally, don't worry about what other people think. People thought I was wierd cause I stayed away fromt he scene and studied a lot. Of course I have a great job now and those people are in their 5 th year of college. So really, it is up to you. Do what YOU think is best and follow your heart. You'll do fine. You might be surprised with how many people of various religions will agree with you.

Best of luck!!

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey RealJones, as your fellow brother, we are to reprove on another, so don't take this offensively.

[ QUOTE ]
You ARE allowed to have fun as a Christian, in case you didn't know. I'm not saying alcohol is required, but it does help to get things rolling

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course we are allowed to have fun. That is the point.

To have joy.

But drinking does not make a situation "more fun".

I'm sorry, but I can have tons of fun and stay completely sober.

I commend anyone who does not equate drinking to fun. Good for you FJO.

[ QUOTE ]
"im not going to drink and im going to stay a virgin till marriage attitude," expect to spend many Fri and Sat nights alone with your Bible

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you say something like that?

[ QUOTE ]
Why exactly do you want to do this? because the Bible says so? The fact of the matter is, if you have accepted Jesus, you are going to heaven. End of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not an excuse for sinning. "Let's just get drunk and who cares. I'm forgiven."

We are to strive to be Christ-like, not world-like.

[ QUOTE ]
Why exactly do you want to do this? because the Bible says so?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I can't understand why you would say something like that.

[ QUOTE ]
But it seems to me that you are very focused in this "I'm a christian and must remain a hardcore one" focus.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with that? I can't believe you are saying something like that?

You are associating being hardcore for Christ as something to be laughed at!

Man, that disappoints me that a fellow Christian would mock another brother who is trying to stay focused on the Lord.

[ QUOTE ]
And I can tell you right now that later on in life you will regret not exoeriencing the many things you could have experienced had you been a bit more open.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the brother said is he can have fun without drinking, and wishes to not fornicate. And you are mocking him.

Then he asks how he can witness to his friends and you make fun of him.

[John D.]

Oh yeah, one more thing. If you have a roommate (and you probably will) make some rules on the first day. There is a change that he may not share your views and you'll have to accept that quickly or it will be like a living hell. However, don't be a push over either. If he wants to drink, that's his business. He wants to have sex with every girl at college, that's his business. If it starts to interfer with your studies, put your foot down. Afterall, you are paying for the room too.

Make some rules about sex too. Like, if he's in there with someone, put shoes outside or something like that. It is kind of a wierd situation if you walk into a private situation. Finally, if he uses drugs immediately ask for another roommate. If he has some in his stuff then you can get in trouble too.

Good luck again!

ps. What's the gym like where you are goin? Usually there are some pretty hot girls there, no need to go to the clubs or bars. :-D

[jaredirl]

See, this is where I have to start rolling my eyes and not being able to see eye to eye with a lot of those who are hardcore religious.

Oldschool help me out with this one, but without the scripture please, just with your thoughts.

So the bible condemns drinking. Why?

Now before you tell me about all of those who are hurt and become drunks and alcoholics and get mean and rape and pillage when drunk, thats not what i'm referring to, and that in itself is a different subject. I will come back to that later.

The people I'm referring to are the good people. The ones like FJ0's sister, who seems to be an honestly good person, but likes to go out and party and drink a litte too much some friday nights. There are people out there who do go to church every Sunday, and have grown up loosely basing their actions and lives by the bible and it's teachings. These same people do sin every now and again. Most of the time it is willingly and knowingly. Does this make them a bad person? My best friend is a good example of this. He is a very good person, who has lived through the teaching of christ his whole life. He has a very strong religious base, and in his heart means well with everything he does. This does not make him free from sin. He does go out with me and drink on weekends. We do have a six-pack before the big hockey games. We do go out and try to meet pretty young ladies to take home and fool around with... What is the harm in that. I noticed that you (meaning the hardcore religious) look down upon people who decide to do things like that. I don't understand why. Is it god's way that one should not experiment, that one should learn through actions?? That one should not know the taste of a good stout, or know the caress of a pretty blonde girl? Does this make my friend any less of a man in god's eyes because he did fall to the temptation?

I do know that there are people out there who do have problems and addictions to things like alcohol. Those aren't the ones I am referring to in my thoughts here. Everything needs moderation. Those who cannot see when enough is enough, or those who hurt themselves or others obviously need help, and I am glad there is help out there for these people.

This post, and the limitations behind it are the one reason I am not religious. This is not to say I don't believe in god or a higher authority, but that I do not believe in an organized religion. I have yet to hear one good arguement about why I should be limited by anything less than my desires. I want to know everything on this earth before I move on to whatever is next. If I went through life wondering what I missed I don't think i'd ever be able to forgive and accecpt god as my savior. Only through my experiences and my experimentation do I learn about myself and about what I am doing here.

Please explain to me why FJO would be any less of a person for having a drink, or a smoke, or a lady. If he decides he doesn't want to do it because of his own choice, that's great, but the tone of the thread is that of disgust towards FJO's sister and her friends because they have made the choice to drink, and I think that in itself is horrible.

[Heart Of The Sunrise]

I'll put it simply. She's in college. Most college kids drink. Period.

They drank wine at the last supper in case you forgot. ;-)

[newbuilder]

I wouldn't judge other people by what they do or don't do, you know. I would just do your own thing. Be a leader, not a follower. That's the key.
If you're being a leader, and sticking to your faith and whatever lifestyle choices that entails, you'll be in the clear more than not.

I partied hardy in college. Didn't party at all previous. First night there I ended up passed out drunk in the middle of the quad. It felt pretty darn good. I still believed in God. In fact that decision steered me clear of Fraternity Life. I didn't agree with a lot of the stuff going on in there. I had a group of friends and we started our own thing across campus.

Don't be afraid of the crowd, but then again don't always follow it.

[newbuilder]

And another thing to keep in mind. I believe that God wants us all to get along, and condeming one person for what they do, or outcasting another for what they don't do isn't the answer. I think He wants us all to love each other despite our differences including the different choices we all make in life. I think He just wants us all to get along and help each other out!

[PsychoJr]

I beg to differ with you Old School -- primarily out of fear that there will be a 20 page response with the entire New Testement quoted. But I think there has always been a lot of debate among religious scholars on the wine issue. Many very Godly men and pastors I know imbibe ocassionaly. Mostly Baptists have made the "new wine" vs "old wine" arguement, but I don't buy it. Similar to debt, I think the bible highly discourages its use, but doesn't prohibit. God gives us a lot of good things that we can abuse, wine among them.

My church has real wine at communion -- are you saying the Evangelical Presbyterian Church is a heretic?

[Liberator]

OldSchool....

I find your post immensely interesting, the study of the Old and New testaments, and christianity..

I personally follow no religion, but much of what you say and quote in your post are things I have come to realise myself over my years.....

I personally follow a christian ethical and moral way of life, altho I wouldn't call myself Christian..

I never had sex till I met the woman I married at age 21, I have drank, and have used drugs during my adolescence, but have realised the truth about what these things do to the human body, mind, and even soul...

I am forever forgiving, even thru some of the nastiest things you could imagine, and am always trying to find the good in those people, and the confusion that leads them to these 'evil' acts...

I do feel some pull towards christianity, and think I would like to learn more about it, and would really like to meet more people with my own morals..... good, honest people who care in todays mixed up society.

Thanks for the post.

~ Jonathan

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
See, this is where I have to start rolling my eyes and not being able to see eye to eye with a lot of those who are hardcore religious.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I'm just a Christian trying to live by the Word. See people often associate drinking with fun. I do not. It does not bother me in the slightest. And although some of my friends drink I can have just as much fun not drinking. And often times more, because I'm in my right mind.

For example. Beer and football. Beer has nothing to do with football. It doesn't make you play better. It doesn't make the event any different.Yet it is heavily associated with the sport.

This same message is publizied all over society.

"If you want to have fun, you have to drink."

So I ask you why? Why can't I have fun without drinking?

I can tell you why. Because society "says so". And where does society get that idea? It's a marketing tactic. I have a BS in Marketing and I can tell you up front, the tactics used to push exactly what I've just said.

[ QUOTE ]
So the bible condemns drinking. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> 1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober , to love their husbands, to love their children,

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
</font>

It is no accident that Paul's command, "Be not drunk with wine" (Eph. 5:18), is followed by instruction concerning Christian fellowship and family relationships.

<font color="blue">
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God" </font>

I'm not going to condemn you. Pray about it. If you feel the bible promotes drinking, then that is your opinion.

My post was not to condemn anyone. Just to show the bible does not support drinking.

I don't see what good alcohol does to a spirit filled believer. The bible says we are to be sober minded.

[ QUOTE ]
Thomas Edison said:
"I do not drink alcoholic liquors. I have better use for my head. To put alcohol in the human brain is like putting sand in the bearings of an engine."


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
My church has real wine at communion -- are you saying the Evangelical Presbyterian Church is a heretic?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Mostly Baptists have made the "new wine" vs "old wine" arguement, but I don't buy it. Similar to debt, I think the bible highly discourages its use, but doesn't prohibit.

[/ QUOTE ]

You answered your own question.

No matter what I say, you won't buy it. You haven't given any biblical reason to recant my above post. So there is no point in trying to explain anything to you.

[RichW]

I have a question.
Do you see a difference in drinking and getting drunk to having a drik or two of an alcoholic beverage?
If you drink a glass of wine with dinner or have a beer or two at a baseball game you don't get drunk. I ralize some people can't or don't stop with just one or two. But for those who do is that the same?
I'm not trying to cause dissent I just want to understand. Like you can have a good meal and get full without being a glutton but if you over indulge you can be accused of gluttony. Is it the same with drunkeness?

[Adam Knowlden]

Well Rich, I think that is something between you and the Lord.

Like I said, I'm really not trying to condemn anyone. But I don't feel the bible condones drinking at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Like you can have a good meal and get full without being a glutton but if you over indulge you can be accused of gluttony.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is another post. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif But gluttony is when you make food more important than God.

Food is a necessite. Alcohol is not. That's why God talks about gluttony.

So this is probably not a good comparison.

[jaredirl]

Old, did you read the rest of my post? You didn't respond at all. Taking that one line out of context isn't very fair either.

I do understand the marketing tactics behind alcohol and having fun, and I do know that alcohol isn't needed to have fun. That's what seperates you and I from the alcoholics.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
but the tone of the thread is that of disgust towards FJO's sister and her friends because they have made the choice to drink, and I think that in itself is horrible.


[/ QUOTE ]

I never said anything like that. Read my response to Rich.

I'm not going to argue with this about this with you.

All I said is drinking is not condoned in the bible.

If you want to drink that is between you and God. Not me.

[ QUOTE ]
We do have a six-pack before the big hockey games. We do go out and try to meet pretty young ladies to take home and fool around with... What is the harm in that. I noticed that you (meaning the hardcore religious) look down upon people who decide to do things like that. I don't understand why.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. But if you know anything about the bible, you know fornication is condemend. I think you already know that.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:19-21)."

[ QUOTE ]
I noticed that you (meaning the hardcore religious) look down upon people who decide to do things like that. I don't understand why.

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't noticed that. I think your real problem is that you don't like authority. That is the tone I've gotten out of your post. That is the problem most have with God, and then they start saying things like this...

[ QUOTE ]
I noticed that you (meaning the hardcore religious

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
. This is not to say I don't believe in god or a higher authority, but that I do not believe in an organized religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I have yet to hear one good arguement about why I should be limited by anything less than my desires.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor. 5:17).

Read the bible, son.

"Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's"(1 Cor. 6:19,20).

[ QUOTE ]
Taking that one line out of context isn't very fair either.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first line summed up your attitude perfectly.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it"(1 Cor. 10:13).

[PsychoJr]

OS, most of your quotes concern drunkenness, not drinking. I don't need to drink to have fun, but I do enjoy a glass of wine - particularly a good zinfindel.

Like I said, there are lots of things the Bible doesn't encourage, but doesn't prohibit. Maybe I just view God with a tad bit more grace than you do, or at least you don't come across this way. Thanks for your posts though -- you are a brother and I respect that...

[Adam Knowlden]

All I said is that the bible does not condone drinking.

And people are getting all angry and upset.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I just view God with a tad bit more grace than you do, or at least you don't come across this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I have not said anything to that nature. If it wasn't for God's grace we'd all be in a world of trouble.

I feel that with this issue, it is between you and God.

We are called to do everything to the glory of God.

I personally, do not see how drinking glorifies God.

But that is my personal opinion. Ask the Holy Spirit.

[jaredirl]

Yes Oldschool, that post was laced with sarcasm, but had some real questions behind it. Some that unfortunatly look to remain unanswered. I'm really looking for some answers to the questions I have, and you seem to be the formost religious source here, so I'm coming to you. Not trying to pick a fight, just looking for answers.

By no means do I think that everyone has to drink, everyone has to have sex, and that everyone has to do drugs. These are all very personal choices, and I feel that each individual should have all of the best information to make well informed decisions. I've never pressured someone to do any of these things, nor would I associate with those who do, just as I would never pressure anyone not do do such things.

As for the authority issue, you may be right. But it's not just about authority. It's about authority who looks down on those who are different. For the religious to condemn others because they choose to do things not allowed by the bible seems very hypocritical of a religion that preaches accecptance and tolerance. That is where my problem comes in. I hold myself to very strict standards when it comes to being honest and standing by what I believe in, and there are parts of all religions that I can't get past.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I most surely am, but doesn't redemption in the eyes of god rest on your faith alone? Didn't Jesus die for our sins so we could be forgiven? As an honest question, what does one who follows the lessons of the bible strictly have over a person like me, who does like to drink, fornicate and sin in general, in gods eyes??

Shouldn't FJ0's sister and my friend both be saved before god because of their unwavering faith, regardless of the minor day to day sins they commit?? If that is the case, why is it commonplace for Christians in general to be dissapointed in them as most are in this thread?

If you don't think this is the right place do discuss this, by all means, send me an email. But it seems that FJO is coming into a place where he's going to have to make some decisions that could conflict with his religious efforts, similar to those that his sister and her friends have already made. It's only fair for him and his sister that they have all of the information, and are better able to make educated choices.

[Pete914]

Getting back to the original issue of FJO and his sister...

First of all, I am not religious so maybe you will blow my opinion off, but anyways...

Come to grips with the fact that college students drink. Usually a lot, usually concentrated on the weekends. This does not mean that you have to drink, but like someone posted here, if you refuse to be around drinking you will likely spend many Fridays and Saturdays in the dorm by yourself. However, I am sure you can find some people who share your views. At KU (GMI) we have Christians In Action (CIA) and some of them go to parties to be DD's, some just go off and do other things.

One of the most important things I learned in college was that if you have not already put your foot down to peer pressure, there is no easier place to do so. In college you can really start to be your own person, and it is harder to be influenced by groups because there are likely many people that are like you for you to hang out with. I mean, seriously, if you are still worried about fitting in with the "cool people" by age 19-22, you really need to grow up a little. Accept yourself for who you are, and don't compromise your principles.

As for your sister, and just about anyone in their first year of college, they are going off and drinking basically because they have 100 times more freedom than they have ever had in their life and they are experimenting. Almost everyone does. I went through HS without drinking and being a virgin. I went to college thinking that I would continue not to drink. By the second semester of my freshman year, I had started drinking and by my sophmore year, it wasn't uncommon for me to pass out drunk every Friday and Saturday, a few times with a coed. However, I got tired of it, and I didn't like the effect it was having on my mind and body. So, I got older, and more responsible...Now I am the president of my fraternity and I am the first to go to jail if something bad happens, so I have to be the most responsible person in the house...in other words, no drinking. Which I voluntarily stopped doing anyways because I am sure it was one of the things that was really holding back my bodybuilding.

So, I guess my main message is don't rag people too hard for experimenting, they will probably work it out of their system in a couple years. In the meantime, there is no reason you can't remind them of their beliefs...although they probably haven't forgotten them. However, they really get into destructive behavior, i.e. becoming an alcoholic, that is when it is time to really step in and tell them that what they are doing is wrong.

Good luck and keep in mind you can still have fun at parties, bars and clubs without drinking...I do/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
looking for some answers to the questions I have, and you seem to be the formost religious source here, so I'm coming to you. Not trying to pick a fight, just looking for answers.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to help you bro. For one I don't get easily offended. I just ask that people don't respond mockingly.

Just honestly.

This post is much more honest, so I will try my best to answer you. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It's about authority who looks down on those who are different. For the religious to condemn others because they choose to do things not allowed by the bible seems very hypocritical of a religion that preaches accecptance and tolerance.

[/ QUOTE ]

For one, it is not what "we" think, but what God has to say.

This goes back to the authority issue again.

Can God tell you and me what to do?

Will we let him be Lord of our life, or just someone we turn to when it's convienent for us?

Those are personal questions we have to answer for ourselves.

I've said repeatedly, I'm not condemning anyone. I'm simply stating what the bible says. That's it. You can do what you want with the knowldege. I'm not God. It's not my idea.

I'm just telling you what the Word says.

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I most surely am, but doesn't redemption in the eyes of god rest on your faith alone? Didn't Jesus die for our sins so we could be forgiven? As an honest question, what does one who follows the lessons of the bible strictly have over a person like me, who does like to drink, fornicate and sin in general, in gods eyes??


[/ QUOTE ]

We are saved by grace.

But faith without works is dead. If you really want to learn more about this, study the book of James.

<font color="red"> 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

</font>

We are not saved by works, but we are justified by them.

We are not called to get saved, then just go back to our old ways, but to try our best to live like Christ.

That's all Christian means. To follow Christ. Literally to be Christ like.

[ QUOTE ]
If that is the case, why is it commonplace for Christians in general to be dissapointed in them as most are in this thread?


[/ QUOTE ]

I never said I was disappointed. Not once. And I never condemned anyone. Not once.

[lonelifter]

this is for FJO; Old School has given you some very sound, Biblical advice and I think you already know that all he said was very good. I think you just needed some reaffirming of your faith. What you need to do for your sister is to set an example for her by your holy living and pray for her that she will see her error and repent for the way she is living. No, you don't need to condemn her, just love her back to the way she knows is really the right way. Sounds like you both had some good teaching by your parents or church and should stick to that. You might consider attending a Bible college where there are Biblical standards of living encouraged for the students (and faculity as well), and where not only academics are promoted, but where the Bible is also held in high esteem. Our church is starting one such college this coming fall and you can find out about it on the web at www.gatewayfwb.org (http://www.gatewayfwb.org) Thanks for your time.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain to me why FJO would be any less of a person for having a drink, or a smoke, or a lady. If he decides he doesn't want to do it because of his own choice, that's great, but the tone of the thread is that of disgust towards FJO's sister and her friends because they have made the choice to drink, and I think that in itself is horrible.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
For the religious to condemn others because they choose to do things not allowed by the bible seems very hypocritical of a religion that preaches accecptance and tolerance. That is where my problem comes in. I hold myself to very strict standards when it comes to being honest and standing by what I believe in, and there are parts of all religions that I can't get past.

[/ QUOTE ]

O.S hasn't condemned anyone. All he is doing is giving advice to other Christians, so they can reach there full potential in Christ.

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I most surely am, but doesn't redemption in the eyes of god rest on your faith alone? Didn't Jesus die for our sins so we could be forgiven? As an honest question, what does one who follows the lessons of the bible strictly have over a person like me, who does like to drink, fornicate and sin in general, in gods eyes??

Shouldn't FJ0's sister and my friend both be saved before god because of their unwavering faith, regardless of the minor day to day sins they commit?? If that is the case, why is it commonplace for Christians in general to be dissapointed in them as most are in this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is very wrong read this post here. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=bodybuilder&amp;Number=512607&amp; Forum=bodybuilder&amp;Words=salvation%20question&amp;Match =Entire%20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=1month&amp; Main=512221&amp;Search=true#Post512607) And here is a verse to go with it:

Romans 3:1-18
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose ****ation is just. 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it god's way that one should not experiment, that one should learn through actions?? That one should not know the taste of a good stout, or know the caress of a pretty blonde girl? Does this make my friend any less of a man in god's eyes because he did fall to the temptation?


[/ QUOTE ]
First, study the above. But in addition, this is a common mentality people carry that is not productive. But lets look at bodybuilding first:

1 Corinthians 9: 24 - 27
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Great verse here; the above is one reason bodybuilders are so spiritual. Its very similar in the aspect of the flesh, in bodybuilding you subdue your flesh and bring it under your control, in Christianity do the same.

1 Corinthians 6:12
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

It goes back to Adam in the garden; he could have everything there. Nothing was withheld from him. Except one fruit! There are so many productive and fun things God allows us to do. What he tells us not to do is for our benefit.

1 John 4:17-21
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us

God want's you to have joy, sin brings torment. And once again, it's the same thing in bodybuilding. I can have steak and salads all the time, but I cant have chocolate cake! But the truth is as a bodybuilder I eat more than 90% of the population, I have just tempered my body and refuse to eat trash that will ruin my gains.

Treat Christianity the same, the benefits of bodybuilding are astounding. How much more the benefits of walking after Christ?

Hebrews 11:23-26
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Do you want to enjoy a slice of cake, and than have a trash body? Or do you want to temper yourself and be a freak!

And again do you want to sin and reap of the flesh? Or walk after the spirit and reap eternal life! Its pretty easy answer to me.

Now back to the mentality:

Luke 9:57-62
61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 4:4-6
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

Several people think they are missing out on something by not sinning, or need to experience sin for themselves. Dont look back on sin, move forward in Christ. The former is not a good mentality, and only leads to more and more sin.

Again, this is not condemning anyone. But for the benefit of believers, so they can walk fully with the Lord. And as john said, there is true joy in doing so, that's all we want. Sinning is not joyful, and will only hurt you.

2 Timothy 2:19-21
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

As for drinking, except for medical reasons and for health benefits. I would stay away from it, in addition you guys are bodybuilders! If you want the most out of your body you should follow O.S's advice.

[Venom]

Here is an old post I made on sin, and how to avoid it. Enjoy:

[ QUOTE ]
member said:
But I am a christian too and if I think in any way this is wrong I will stop, so im kinna confused about the whole thing. I dont know what to think really. Man teenage years are confusing. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Romans 14:22-23
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is ****ed if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

By your post above, its quite evident you cannot smoke pot in faith, and anything not done in faith is a sin. Also:

[ QUOTE ]
member said:Well I just dont know. I mean I know what I am doing is illegal but well I like it so I am going to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Romans 8:12-16
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

If you are doing something just to please the lusts of your flesh that is sin. Walk after the spirit, and you don't have to worry, because there is no law against the spirit of life! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/Fruit_of_the_Spirit.jpg

Here are some tips before you do something your not sure about:

1. Can I do this in 100% faith towards God?
2. Am I pleasing my flesh, and fulfilling the lusts thereof willingly?
3. Or am I walking with the spirit?

And keep your chin up buddy; we all just want to help.
/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[FJ0]

Thanks so much for the post and honesty everyone. WOW that was a lot of reading!

I see a lot of conflicting views on here and found it all very interesting.

Anyway, yeah I've already made the decision not to drink or fornicate in college, which I believe is imperative because it seems if someone goes in to college unsure they're likely to give in to temptation. I don't want to condemn anyone, and the idea of leading by example sounds like a good one. I think if I meet a good group of Christian friends I'll be set and we can all hang out without the alcohol/drugs. I don't want to live my life thinking or proclaiming to be "better" than everyone else just because I don't drink alcohol, I just want to be different, to live for the Lord.

Thanks for the encouragement. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[becks]

FJO - First, I'm with Old School 100% on the scriptures and his thoughts.

Second, you really really should check out the various campus ministries on the college campus. I currently work with a campus ministry at the college here. I first got involved with it my freshman year, and it was the best decision I made in my four years in school.

More than 80% of Christians grow weaker in their faith while at a secular university -- but the ones who don't are almost always the ones who get involved with a solid group of believers. Personally, I was involved with Chi Alpha Christian Fellowship, which at my campus is interdenominational, but many denominations have groups as well.

While I'm on the subject, I never spent a single evening alone in my dorm room -- unless I wanted to. The campus ministry I was involved in had stuff going on all the time, either as a large group or just a small group of friends hanging out or whatever.

College was the most intense period of spiritual growth in my life, and I believe that is available for any student who will get involved with other Christians. I'm excited for the potential that awaits you this fall!

God bless you.

Becks

[Huntsman]

hey lighten up man, a couple of cold ones here and there dont make you a bad person!!

[dekkajay02]

It's great that you have went through HS without drinking. You should be proud of yourself. I think that drinking itself is perfectly fine socially and in moderation. Then again, you should think about what you are about to embark on and make the right conscious decision.

[ne plus ultra]

Iam not sure if this is mentioned above, but there is so much that I can't read it all. Anyways, this passage sums up why I don't drink alcohol:

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy." I Corinthians 3:16-17

Why would you want to tarnish something thats Holy?

[phillygoat11]

dude,
relax a little and live a little bit. a couple of drinks is not going to send you straight to hell. if you go into college with your hardcore attitude, you are going to be very lonley because you will find very few people to hang out with. you got to experience the college life and i am not supporting getting drunk, i think you will be singing a different tune once you get to college. everyone is human and everyone wants to have some fun. the bible says nothing about having a few drinks as being "evil". quit taking the bible so literally. you guys are putting stuff into the bible that isn't there. there are many of priests that i know that have a drink or two. they are human.

[Mito]

FJ0,
I honestly think you make this into a bigger problem than it has to be.
If you go through college without drinking or fornicating, then that's great, good for you.
If you happen to get drunk and end up in bed with someone, then that is great to. Really, I mean that. Think of it as an opportunity to learn about life and people. If you don't like it, then you can stay away from it from then on.
If you leave college as a raging alcoholic, then that is not great - but that is really a different story, isn't it?
I don't know much about the bible, but I'm pretty sure that it says that Jesus lived among ordinary people, right? I think it's safe to assume that some of them drank once in a while. What did Jesus do then? I think he may have stayed away from the wine, but partied just the same. Which sound pretty good to me. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mito]

Or, as Captian Kirk, a.k.a. the wisest man ever, once said: "Don't try to be a great man, just try to be a man." /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kryogen]

[ QUOTE ]
msickbikes said:
Please send me a pm with her name, age, school, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


I would not do that, unless you want your sister killed or something.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
hey lighten up man, a couple of cold ones here and there dont make you a bad person!!

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red"> Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise. </font>

[ QUOTE ]

Getting back to the original issue of FJO and his sister...


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any other good verses about not drinking that anyone knows of? Anyone got any words of advice? I know it's just reality that everyone goes up to college to drink and all, but us Christians are supposed to be different, we're supposed to stand out and set an example.


[/ QUOTE ]

As you can see above, the original question was in regards to Christianity and drinking/fornicating, not your peronsal opinion, but God's. But I have a feeling we're going to get it anyway... /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I am not religious so maybe you will blow my opinion off, but anyways...

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither am I. Religious is bound to rules, I am free in Christ.

[ QUOTE ]
Come to grips with the fact that college students drink.

[/ QUOTE ]

You act as if you are teaching me about life.

<font color="red">Proverbs 3:7
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. </font>

What does sin profit? Nothing. I have lived in sin for years and done everything imaginable.

I know the typical mentatlity. That "If I follow Christ I am missing out on life, and will never have fun..."

Well that is a lie. And having been there I can testify to that fact.

There is nothing in this world that compares to having the Holy Spirit, so come to grip with that fact.

<font color="blue"> Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. </font>


[ QUOTE ]
Usually a lot, usually concentrated on the weekends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is satan's plan. Keep them busy all week with school, then drunk and pursuing lust on the weekend, then they never have time to think about God. It worked on me for years.


[ QUOTE ]
This does not mean that you have to drink, but like someone posted here, if you refuse to be around drinking you will likely spend many Fridays and Saturdays in the dorm by yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. First from a common sense point, the people you are hanging out with that drink are not themselves when they are drunk or high. How is any meaning full friendship developing like that? It isn't. It is mearly a way to pass time. If the choice is only stay home, or hang out with drunks. I'd rather stay home and pick my nose, than the other option. However, there are plenty of other options that don't involve sinning.

Furthermore as Christians, there is no need to be hanging out in a bar with drunks. None whatsoever,

<font color="green"> 2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. </font>

Moreoever, this simply puts the unbeliver in a place to dull the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I have seen it time and time again. It starts out with " I don't have to drink and have sex to hang out at these places", years later, they are doing all the sins they were never going to do.

The point is if you keep hanging out in those environments you will become more desensitized to the Holy Spirits warnings,

<font color="brown"> 34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them:
35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
</font>


[ QUOTE ]
One of the most important things I learned in college was that if you have not already put your foot down to peer pressure, there is no easier place to do so. In college you can really start to be your own person, and it is harder to be influenced by groups because there are likely many people that are like you for you to hang out with. I mean, seriously, if you are still worried about fitting in with the "cool people" by age 19-22, you really need to grow up a little. Accept yourself for who you are, and don't compromise your principles.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make zero sense.

[ QUOTE ]
As for your sister, and just about anyone in their first year of college, they are going off and drinking basically because they have 100 times more freedom than they have ever had in their life and they are experimenting. Almost everyone does. I went through HS without drinking and being a virgin. I went to college thinking that I would continue not to drink. By the second semester of my freshman year, I had started drinking and by my sophmore year, it wasn't uncommon for me to pass out drunk every Friday and Saturday, a few times with a coed.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is something to be proud of...and goes right along with what I said, you hung out with them, went in with the intent of staying pure, but eventually succumbed.

The key is stay away from temptation. There are some temptations that are right in our face, we have to bat off with the sword. But going to bars and fornicating parties? Just dont' go. That's easy to beat. Yet as you show, your lost your purity by hanging out with the crowd that you said doesn't influence you?

[ QUOTE ]

So, I guess my main message is don't rag people too hard for experimenting, they will probably work it out of their system in a couple years.

[/ QUOTE ]

First no one is ragging anyone. He asked for biblical answers, so I gave him one. Your answer is to just go for it and it will work out in the end? So your solution is to do what you did? Wreck havoc on your body and eventually you'll come around?

[ QUOTE ]
becoming an alcoholic, that is when it is time to really step in and tell them that what they are doing is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or prevent it in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
Good luck and keep in mind you can still have fun at parties, bars and clubs without drinking...I do

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what you did and caused you to lose your purity. Great advice. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Mito]

hmm i see your point...

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
Somehow their high standards and quotes from the bible doesn&amp;#8217;t seem to help a lot, so it&amp;#8217;s usually up to me, the agnostic, to somehow find a way to comfort them

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course we all sin. But while I don't question their salvation, I question there consistency with scripture.

God is only graceful because of the shed blood of Christ. Make no mistake about it, without that blood there is no forgivness of sin.

God has no tolerance for sin, at all.

If you love God don't take advantage of His Grace. "I can sin, I just think God is graceful", that is a lie from satan. Noone with the Holy Spirit will have that mentality, there is no example of living that way and being genuniely saved in the bible.

Also we are to reprove fellow believers to keep them strong. The mods and I do this to each other all the time. The bible is clear we need community to stand strong. Edifying one another is a constant thing. It is encouraging and helps us make it in a world of sin. This goes beyond the word "comfort" to a love that only believers can understand.

We are not to let the unsaved talk us into sinning, or reconciling our sins to ourselves. We are to come to God.

<font color="red"> 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

</font>

<font color="blue"> 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
</font>

FJO knows you are not saved.

He knows taking advice on sinning isn't going to be very productive coming from those who say there is no sin.

<font color="brown"> 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
</font>

Why would someone who is has rights to build there lives upon a rock, build their lives next to those who live on the sand?

<font color="green"> 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


</font>

In any event, FJO's question has been answered to his satisfaction. He is one of the many, who decided to have fun without conforming to drunkedness and fornication.