do you believe in ghosts/hauntings?

[GetPsycho]

i just watched a special on the discovery channel on hauntings and it freaked me out /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Yep. I love to watch those kind of shows. Freaks me out too but I like to be scared!

[icecube]

Yeah that [*%#*%*#] is cool. I know someone who says they have been to a ghost town before and she has seen them in her room. Shes not the type to lie.. So I am not sure what to believe.

-Matt

[Pesca]

I don't believe in ghosts at all....but my house at college is haunted, WEIRD stuff happens all the time. I know its an oxymoron, but I still don't believe in ghosts

[W8lifter2]

Yep...I've felt a "presence" in rooms before, and the house we owned in VA had a comfy feeling unlike any other we've experienced. Just felt secure, and as if someone was watching over us all the time (plus it was a really cool house...I miss that place)

[CheezitMan22]

umm...im scared now, thanks. /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif i watch those shows but the freak the hell out of me

[Xtreme1986]

meh I beleive in ghosts but don't beleive they can do any harm. my town has a really famous ghost story that seems rather credable cuz it drew doctors and stuff from all over the world and they all claimed that weird things would happen. but this was back in like 1911 and my best friends gramdfather owns the property now (its now an abadoned Canadian tire)
in the story some woman had weird thing happen to her like her bed would shake and books would fly off shelves onto the floor and weird white markings would appear on the walls saying [*%#*%*#] like "Esther Cox you are mine to kill" and then a barn she worked in burned down. then they tried to trial her as a witch and a bunch of crazy crap if you're interested check out "The Great Amherst Mystery" on the internet and you'll find a bunch of stuff about it

[Adam Knowlden]

No. Not in the sense that there are dead people's spirits walking around.

<font color="blue"> Job 7:9,10:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
</font>

Ghosts are not dead people walking around.

<font color="red"> 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
</font>

God made it clear. There is nothing to fear.

If there are any true hauntings, they are demonic manifestations.

The bible is clear when you die you either go to heaven or hell, you do not stay on earth as some sort of punishment or because of some unresolved issue.

[GetPsycho]

[ QUOTE ]
CaptainCellulite said:
Just put the sci-fi channel on. All tonite that is what it is about. It will repeat tonite again if you missed it.



You bunch of scaredy cats...... Muhahahahahahaha!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, thats it. it was coooooool

[awds]

well think of it this way youll be a ghost when you die so whats to be afraid of

[49flat400]

Yeah, I'd have to say that I believe in them. I've had a bunch of little stuff happen to me throughout my life. It's a fun topic to talk about.

[Relik86]

I love reading about this sort of thing. I'll usually go to google.com and search things like "unexplained" or "mysteries". You get some pretty freaky stuff by doing that. Great reads in the middle of the night! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Nasty]

I'm not sure though... but I know enough not to mess around with them, and there's been way too man documentries to say there isn't... I'm scared...

[fluffy]

When I was in high school I worked for this guy at his home office. He lived in a Victorian era mansion over two centuries old in the middle of a field. Nothing around for a mile or two. This was in Bucks County, Pennsylvania -- movie "Signs" ring a bell?

Anyway, I didn't notice anything too weird besides all sorts of creaking and window shutter noises. But his family swore that the place was haunted and had a ton of stories. Ghosts, whispers, moving furniture, chiming grandfather clock when there was no such thing in the house /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Menace]

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
No. Not in the sense that there are dead people's spirits walking around.

<font color="blue"> Job 7:9,10:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
</font>

Ghosts are not dead people walking around.

<font color="red"> 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
</font>

God made it clear. There is nothing to fear.

If there are any true hauntings, they are demonic manifestations.

The bible is clear when you die you either go to heaven or hell, you do not stay on earth as some sort of punishment or because of some unresolved issue.






[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that's true. The way I see it is that these lost souls are product of the evil. Spirits don't usually show up and they're rare seen. They only stay in a place because they still have something in them or in their past that needs some resolution or answer.

[RickTina]

nah, its bs.

[Centurion]

As OldSchool said, it can be a demonic manifestation, but thats about it. Nothing to be afraid of, however. Psalms 23:4 - "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

[Godzilla]

Now wait one second, what was Jesus after his death then? I mean he visited his Mother and stuff AFTER he was crussified. That sounds like a ghost to me, plus what is with the Holly Ghost then? Isn't that the bible contradicting itself? I mean if there are no ghost or spirits then what happens to the trinity?

Steven D.

[Adam Knowlden]

"what was Jesus after his death then"

A glorified body. Like the ones we will recieve at the rapture.

"I mean if there are no ghost or spirits then what happens to the trinity?"

There are defenietly spirits. God is a Spirit!But there are no dead people's spirits trapped here on earth, like some sort of limbo state.

That contradicts the bible. When you die you either go to heaven or hell.

[Godzilla]

So where did this pergetory thing come from that I hear people talk about? Was it just made up?

Steven D.

[enderwigginout]

There are no such thing as ghosts. Don't worry bout it GP.

[Nasty]

wait... if ghosts and spirits are demonic things, and jesus was a ghost or spirit, then won't he be a domonic thing? sry, but im not that educated in this.

[Godzilla]

That's what I'm asking too. Like I said, the bible contradicts itself. Call Jesus what you want, but it all intensive purposes he was a ghost. Things like this is why religion is man made and God deserves more credit in its power then is portrayed in books like the Bible, Koran, and Torah (among others.).

[konaforever]

As ghosts go, Casper is cool. He's friendly.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Godzilla said:
That's what I'm asking too. Like I said, the bible contradicts itself. Call Jesus what you want, but it all intensive purposes he was a ghost. Things like this is why religion is man made and God deserves more credit in its power then is portrayed in books like the Bible, Koran, and Torah (among others.).

[/ QUOTE ]
If you want to know why not wait for an answer? Instead of mocking things you obviously don't understand. If you were in a training forum, and are a complete newbie would you act like that? If so you would never gain knowledge in the sport of bodybuilding, don't treat anything else different.

2 Peter 2:10-22
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[ QUOTE ]
Nasty said:
wait... if ghosts and spirits are demonic things, and jesus was a ghost or spirit, then won't he be a domonic thing? sry, but im not that educated in this.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is someone that wants to learn. He asks respectfully, and intelligently instead of mocking.

First Nasty, Jesus was not a spirit:

Luke 24:36-49
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Christ rose from the dead! Because:

Acts 2:14-36
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Christ overcame death. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif It could not hold him! So no, Christ was not a spirit. He was perfect when he went down, and perfect when he came up. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Never lost his body, or saw corruption.

[ QUOTE ]
if ghosts and spirits are demonic things, and jesus was a ghost or spirit, then won't he be a domonic thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

As you see, Christ was not a spirit.
But you missed the point of the post. The statement Old School made was when a human being dies, there spirit is not left to roam on earth.

But there are many spirits in existence. But those that do evil works on earth are not the ghosts of human beings. But they are demons, understand?

To clarify, the Holy Spirit works everywhere. But this has nothing to do with human ghosts staying on earth, that is purely the topic. When you or I die, we will not be left on earth to haunt someone, we will be in heaven or beneath.

So these evil spirits are demons.

If someone does not understand this than ask. And do not mock, that is not productive for one member on this site and extremely rude and only shows someone's insecurity. Thank you. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Godzilla said:
So where did this pergetory thing come from that I hear people talk about? Was it just made up?

Steven D.

[/ QUOTE ]
This has nothing to do with the subject. But if you want it explained I will. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Godzilla]

All I did was express my view that religion is nothing more then Man's way of controling people. If that's not true then try to explain to me about the Crusades and those militiant Muslim terrorist. Hey, I got no problem with people doing all thier Jesus stuff as long as they understand that people will, and have the right to question it or even denounce it.

Steven D.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
If that's not true then try to explain to me about the Crusades and those militiant Muslim terrorist.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? Did I preach the crusades? Or war?

I preach Christ, who needs no defense. Not the acts of man.

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, I got no problem with people doing all thier Jesus stuff as long as they understand that people will, and have the right to question it or even denounce it.

[/ QUOTE ]
The success to this site is our members holding intelligent and respectful debates and conversations.

I guarantee if you change your approach to someone like Heens, you will gain 100 times more knowledge. The above comments will only inhibit your own results.

[Godzilla]

In what way was I rude? All I stated was that the bible seems to contradicts itself AND that God deserved more credit then what the bible or anyother religious text gives it. It sounds like you just didn't like that I question what you believe. If it seemed rude then I'm sorry. All I did was state an observation that I've seen over the years. It seems that you like to follow the bible word for word, fine by me, but I disagree with that ideal.

Personally I have to question if, for one, if the book was even translated correctly. How do we know that some English King or a powerful Pope decided to change a few words or names. It is a possiblity, after all that is the nature of man. Plus, no religion seems to have a strong context on war. Oh sure, almost all religions say murder is wrong. It is the so called orthedox believers that seem to find an if clause, especially when they meet someone that does like their God or their understanding of God. In all, I guess we come from two different back grounds. I came from one with strict Catholic up bringing and then say the Priest caught in fraud and the so called religious teachers treating other people like trash cause they felt they were better then them. That's why I don't like nor follow religion. Is there a God? Yeah, but I just think it is a heck of a lot more complex then any religious book could explain it. Therefore, I don't try to understand it's way. I just look forward to seeing it one day and asking a whole bunch of questions.

Steven D.

[President Wilson]

Godzilla, I believe the point is, that a disagreement is fine. But, how we disagree is another thing. Simply move from an aspect to respect eachother and things will go perfectly fine. For example, the way you worded this

[ QUOTE ]
That's what I'm asking too. Like I said, the bible contradicts itself. Call Jesus what you want, but it all intensive purposes he was a ghost.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is obviously off. You could simply ask. " You study the Bible, what is your opinion on this subject? " etc.


[ QUOTE ]
Personally I have to question if, for one, if the book was even translated correctly. How do we know that some English King or a powerful Pope decided to change a few words or names

[/ QUOTE ]

You could just ask. " How well has the words of Jesus been preserved? Or something along those lines. And of course we can give you an intelligent answer.

In fact, Iv'e address this, and I will be certainly glad to show you the response.

1. They are composed of eye witness accounts to Jesus Christ. By several eye witnesses to Christ.

2. When were these 25 books of eye witness accounts composed?

The Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke were each written within 20 years after Christs death. Dr. John A. T. Robinson states that the Gospel of Matthew was written as early as A.D. 40, within eight years of Christ.

Dr. Hiebert, Dr. Harrison, and Dr. Harnak, Dr. T.W. Manson all date Pauls letters, Peters Epistles, and to 50-66 A.D.

In regards to Paul Dr. Kevan writes

" There is unimpeachable evidence of the contemporary letters of Paul the Apostle. These epistles constitute historical evidence of the highest kind. The letters addressed to the Galations, the Corinthians, and the Romans, about the authenticity and date of which there is very little dispute, belong to the time of Paul's missionary journeys, and may be dated in the period of 55-58. This brings the evidence of the resurrection of Christ still nearer to the event: the interval is the short span of twenty years. "

John, was an apostle of Jesus, and ate with him, lived with him, and studies under him. Johns disciple Clement of Alexandria which we have several extra biblical documents of attested to the Biblical account of Johns banishment to the Island of Patmos, where in A.D. 95-100 he wrote his eye witness account of Jesus, and The revelation. He was banished to Patmos under The Emperor Domitian, this is also confirmed by Eusibus, a great historian.

We have several points to make.

1. The 25 books, containing several eye witness accounts, all written at an early date after Christs Death. This is vital to their testimony. What I want to do, is affirm, to you, their accuracy, in a comparison mode. Here are the top books of antiquity, and here are the statistics that back their authenticity:

1. Caesar written 100-44 BC, earliest copy 900 AD, that is 1, 000 years after it was written!!!! and the number of copies we have are 10

2. Livy written 59 BC-AD 17 ealiest copy 900 AD, 1100 years after is was written! copies = 7

3. Aristotle, now everyone uses Aristotles work! writted 384 BC, the earliest copy is 1100 AD Thats 1400 years after it was written!!!!!!!! Their are 49 copies of it

4. Plato, come on, who questions platos work!? His was written 427 BC and the earliest copy was 900 AD 1300 years after it was written man! Thats insane and there are only 7 copies!!!!!! Yet no one questions his writtings!!!!!!!

5. Sophocles 496 BC it was written and the earliest copy was 1000 AD thats 1400 years! 193 copies. Thats allot of copies! I mean that has allot of backing, but still 1400 years, allot of time eh!?

6. Catullus 54 bc it was written and the earliest copy is 1500 AD thats 1600 years after! And this guy gets tought in schools ! there are 3 copies.

I can go on and on. But these are the absolute top writtings of antiquity, the absolute highest ( next to the bible ) is Homer's Illiad. You read that right!? Everyone has. It blows all the other works of antiquity away. Look at these stats man!

written 900 BC, the earliest copy is 400 BC. Only 500 years. Thats pretty close compared to other works of antiquity dont you think!? And its authentic, look it has 643 copies! Thats got allot of backing!!!!!! Very authentic. Again aside from the new testiment this is the most backed work of antiquity!


Get ready ! Now you will see why the new testiment has more backing then any other book of antiquity! guess what? It was written from 40 A.D. to 100 AD( John on Patmos ), Guess when our earliest copy is!?? Ill let you think about it....

The earliest manuscript, get ready! Is 125 AD! Only 25 years after the new testiment was finished! Now how many copies. I mean homer has 643 copies! And its the most backed book of antiquity aside from the new testiment? It is more than 643, and its more than 1, 000 and its more than 2, 000 and its more than 10, 000! In fact, hold your breath! Its a total of over 24, 000 copies!!!!!!!!!!!!
You heard right, 24, 000 copies! All matching eachother from the first!

Did you know, that if we threw away every single new testiment bible in the world. That we could reconstruct the whole new testiment down to 11 verses!? Over the first 2 centuries the early church fathers would send letters, in which they would quote books of the new testiment. They did this so frequently, and there are so many of these preserved over the first 2 centuries that the whole new testiment can be recontructed! We have over 86, 000 quotations of the new testiment writtings. Thats over 110, 000 documents which affirm the accuracy of the text.,

To discredit the new testiment would be to throw out every work of antiquity in existance! There is no past writting with more backing, and here are a few quotes Im going to copy for you!


<font color="blue"> Therefore </font> the first two factors have been covered. Which are, and early date, and the uncannily, essentially miraculous backing that the words of the eye witness accounts to Jesus Christ, have been preserved.

The next aspect is to discuss the Historicity of the Bible.
Old School covered this excellently. One of the most incredible aspect of the New Testiment, is that it is actually very testible in this manner. Luke made this statement in his book of Acts:

<font color="blue"> 1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs , being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God </font>

It is vital, that many of these proofs can be historically tested. I can, and in the future will discuss, an amazing, huge and extensive list of the Historical confirmation of every testible event in the new testiment. Luke for example, has been credided, as one of the greatest historians of all time. Simply because he meticulously recorded facts. Including Goverment officials, peoples, customs, dates, times, and places.

As far as some of the Archaology, Old School has discussed this in the past, I'll paste his response, which only touches on the subject

Some of the Archeological evidence for Scripture's accuracy:
a. Hittite civilization (Genesis 15:20) discovered in 1906
b. Quirinius Governor of Syria (Luke 2:1-3) confirmed as a double duty by coin
c. Correct titles of government praetor, proconsul, first man, politarchs (Lukes writings)
d. John alone mentions The Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-15), it was found as described
e. The walls of Jericho (Joshua 6) with the exception of part of the Northern wall - Rahabs
house??? (Heb. 11:30-31) - found in 1950. They were burned and fallen from the inside out.
f. Census taking in first century (Gospels) method of family counting used is accurate
g. Pilate the Governors (John 19) existence confirmed by inscription found in 1961
h. Jesus; direction of travel (Mark 7:31) probable route through mountains makes sense
i. Daniel accurately recorded Belshazzars position (5:16) as co-regent
j. Nazareths existence (John 1:46) confirmed by family lists and tombs in vicinity 1962
k. Method of crucifixion confirmed in 1968
l. The method and fact of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19) verified
m. Lysanius the Tetrarch (Luke 3:1) confirmed as correct name for that time period
n. John alone mentions the Pool of Siloam (John 9:7) found as described
o. Jacobs Well (John 4:12) found as described
p. Cities of Lycaonia included Iconium (Acts 14:6) confirmed as correct
q. Erastus the city treasurer (Romans 16:23) inscription found in Corinth in 1929
r. Ecclessia meeting in theater (Acts 19:23) found
s. The proper title meris; used of Philippi of Macedonia
t. Jesus probable home unearthed in Capernaum (Mark 1:29-34)
u. Millstones (Luke 17:2) unearthed in Capernaum
v. First century Galilean boat found to hold crew of 13 1986
w. John (3:23) correctly identifies John the Baptist as being in Aeno
x. John (2:1) distinguishes the two Canas, and the two Bethanys (1:28; 11:18)
y. John (4:5-6) specifies the city of Sychar in Samaria where Jacobs well is found.
z. Evidence has also been found for the Tower of Babel and the confusion of languages

a. The method and destruction of the city of Tyre is 100% accurate (Ezekial 26)
b. Christ was tried by Pilate in the "Gabbatha" (or pavement) found (John 19:13)
c. Personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine "Canaan" "tehom"(Ebla)
d. In 1977 an inscription mentioning Dan was found near the high place (1 Kings 12:28-29)
e. The Mesha Inscription found in Jordan mentions the tribe of Gad (Joshua 13:24-28)
f. The Babylonians recorded the fall of the "city of JUDAH" to Nebuchadnezzar in 597 BC
g. The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud .
h. The east gate of Shechem where the forces of Abimelech approached the city found
i. The Temple of Baal/El-Berith in Shechem,
j. The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought found
k. The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived
l. The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death found
m. The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah during the Assyrian siege found
n. The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast
o. The royal palace in Susa where Esther was queen of the Persian king Xerxes found
p. The royal gate at Susa where Mordecai, Esther's cousin, sat found
q. The Square in front of the royal gate at Susa where Mordecai met with Halthach found
r. The foundation of the synagogue at Capernaum where Jesus cured a man with an unclean spirit
and delivered the sermon on the bread of life .
s. The house of Peter where Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law and others found
t. The tribunal at Corinth where Paul was tried found
u. The theater at Ephesus where the riot of silversmiths occurred found
v. Herod's palace at Caesarea where Paul was kept under guard found
w. Graves of Caiaphas the High Priest (John 18:13), Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1-7), Cyrus the
Great (Isaiah 45), Darius-I the Great (Ezra 6) known
x. The cave of the Patriarchs (Sarah, Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah, Leah and Jacob) known
y. Grave of David and Solomon known
z. Grave of Uzziah (an inscription was found on the Mount of Olives in 1931 which reads, "Here
were brought the bones of Uzziah, King of Judah - do not open."...evidently because of leprosy)

And to add some details...

Joshuas conquest of the Promised Land
Critics of the Bible have claimed for decades that the Bible's statements in Joshua about the conquest of the Promised Land in the centuries before the monarchy of King David were pure fiction. In light of this new archeological evidence critics will be forced to relinquish their rejection of the Bible's record of Israel's conquest as stated by Joshua. In the book of Joshua (6:5), God told Joshua, When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have all the people give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the people will go up, every man straight in." Even this miracle is confirmed by archaeology. Professor John Garstang found and recorded his amazing finding, ;there remains no doubt: the walls fell outwards so completely that the attackers would be able to clamber up and over the ruins into the city.; The evidence from all other archaeological digs around ancient cities in the Middle East reveal that the walls of cities always fall inwards as invading armies push their way into the city.

(To read more, refer to John Garstang and J.B.E. Garstang, The Story of Jericho, London: Hodder &amp; Stoughton Ltd, 1940 page 172.)

Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
(Gen 19:24-29 NIV) Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities--and also the vegetation in the land. But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace. So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the most memorable stories in the Bible. According to the Bible, the inhabitants of these two cities were so wicked (Gen 18:20, 19:1-13) that God supernaturally destroyed them. For many years, historians regard this as a fairy tale.

We know from the Bible that Sodom and Gomorrah were located in the Valley of Siddim (Gen 14:3), a known name for the Dead Sea. In 1973 Walter Rast and Thomas Schaub began to excavate a site known as Bab edh-Dhra, which it located in this area (on the eastern shore of Transjordan across from the Lisan peninsular). They found remains of a heavily fortified and large community. Another thing caught the attention of excavators: the evidence of extensive destruction by fire. The townsite was covered by a layer of ash many feet in thickness. Many dead bodies were found inside buildings. The archeologists also found that the fire did not start from inside the building (as would be the case of an earthquake) but in every case started on the roof of the building, then the roof burned through, collapsed into the interior and then the fire spread inside the building. Archeologists have no explanation for this but the Bible does. The Bible talks about Gods destruction of these cities because of their sin and speaks of God raining fire and brimstone down on these cities from heaven.

(For a published report of these excavations, see W.E. Rast and R.T. Schaub, Survey of the Southeastern Plain of the Dead Sea,Annual of the Department of Antiquities of Jordan 19:5-54, 175-85.)

Historicity of numerous kings mentioned in the Bible
Only fifty years ago many disbelieving scholars totally rejected the historical accuracy of the Bible because they claimed that the Scriptures talked about numerous kings and individuals that could not be confirmed from any other historical or archeological records. Recent discoveries have proven these critics wrong. Discoveries have been found referring to King David, Solomon, Uzziah, Hezekiah and many others.

Recent archeological investigations have demolished the position of those who rejected the biblical account of Israel's kings such as King David. In 1993, archeologists digging at Tel Dan in the Galilee in northern Israel found a fragment of a stone inscription that clearly refers to the "house of David" and identifies David as the "king of Israel." This is the first inscription outside the Bible that confirms the Bible's statement that David was the king of Israel in the ninth century before Christ.

A stone inscription from Egypt confirms that Israel was established as a nation in Canaan centuries before the reign of King David, just as the Bible claims. The Merneptah Stela is a seven-and-a-half-foot-high stone inscription discovered in the temple of Pharaoh Merneptah at Thebes in Egypt. Scholars determined that Pharaoh Merneptah ruled Egypt from 1213 to 1203 B.C. and confirmed that he launched an invasion into the area of the modern-day West Bank in Canaan, defeating the Jewish inhabitants of the land. The second line from the bottom of this inscriptions boasts, "Israel is laid waste; his seed is not."

In addition to the archeological evidence for King David, we now have confirmation of other kings of Israel. The name of Omri, king of Israel, is recorded on an inscription known as the Stela of King Mesha of Moab. In addition, Omri's name appears on the rock inscriptions of three kings of Assyria, the annals of both Tiglath-Pileser III and Sargon II, and the Black Obelisk of King Shalmaneser III, who wrote, "I conquered . . . all of the Land of Omri (Israel)." Other Assyrian inscriptions found in Nineveh confirm the Bible's records about these kings of Israel: Ahab, Jehu, Joash, Menehem, Pekah, and Hoshea. In addition, the names of many of the kings of the southern kingdom of Judah are also recorded on inscriptions of the nations that fought against the Jews. The inscriptions found by archeologists also confirm the names of these kings of Judah: Ahaziah, Uzziah, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh, and Jehoiachin. Scholars found ration records of the army of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (606 to 562 B.C.) that state, "ten sila of oil to Jehoiachin, king of Judah. . . ." Obviously, the fact that these foreign nations listed the kings of Israel and Judah provides the strongest evidence confirming the accuracy of the Word of God.

Historicity of other Biblical Personalities
One of the most interesting discoveries in recent years was the finding of two bull', or clay seals, that bear the impression of the actual seal used by Baruch, the scribe of Jeremiah the prophet who transcribed the Book of Jeremiah. Both bull' bear the inscription, "Belonging to Berekhyahu, son of Neriyahu, the Scribe." One of these clay seals is on view in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. However, the second bull' was found in Jerusalem earlier in this century and purchased by collector Shlomo Moussaieff of London who owns the greatest private collection of ancient Jewish inscriptions in the world. This second clay seal, bearing the same inscription, also reveals a fingerprint that probably belonged to Baruch.

At the beginning of this century a fascinating seal was discovered in Israel that bore an inscription of a beautiful lion and the words, "Belonging to Shema servant of Jeroboam." This amazing find indicates that it belonged to an official of King Jeroboam of Israel. Other seals have been discovered confirming the biblical records about King Uzziah (777 to 736 B.C.) and King Hezekiah (726 to 697 B.C.).

Another important seal found in Jerusalem dates from the seventh century before Christ and is inscribed as follows: "Belonging to Abdi Servant of Hoshea." This seal made of orange chalcedony, used to authenticate royal documents for security, belonged to Abdi, a high official of King Hosea, the last king of the northern kingdom of Israel before it was conquered by the Assyrian Empire in 721 B.C. Another large seal on red limestone was found bearing the inscription "Belonging to Asayahu, servant of the king"ÿtogether with a galloping horse. The name "Asaiah" is a short form of the name "Asayahu."ÿThis name occurs twice in the Old Testament in connection with the title "servant of the king." In 2 Chronicles 34:20 we find the name, "Asaiah a servant of the king's" and again in 2 Kings 22:12, "Asahiah a servant of the king's." It is possible that this seal was owned by "Asaiah, the servant of the king" a high court official who was sent by King Josiah to carefully examine the scroll of the lost Book of Deuteronomy that was found in the Temple by the High Priest Hilkiah in approximately 622 B.C.

Explorers in Iraq in the last century found the ancient inscribed clay cylinder bearing the actual decree of King Cyrus of Persia allowing the various captured natives of many different nations to return freely to their ancient homelands. It was the government policy of the preceding Babylonian Empire of King Nebuchadnezzar to displace whole peoples such as the Jews and resettle them in the far reaches of their empire. However, King Cyrus of Persia, a moderate and God-fearing monarch, reversed the cruel Babylonian policy. Immediately after conquering the Babylonian Empire, King Cyrus issued a decree allowing the Jews to freely return to their homeland in Israel ending the seventy-year-long captivity. The decree of King Cyrus began with these words, "I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king." After describing his conquests and deeds, the cylinder inscription reads, "I gathered all their former inhabitants and returned to them their habitations." In this incredible discovery we find the confirmation of one of the most astonishing events in the pages of Scripture. "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, he is the God, which is in Jerusalem" (Ezra 1:1-3).

The Archeological Evidence of the New Testament
The English scholar, William Ramsay, traveled as a young man to Asia Minor over a century ago for the sole purpose of disproving the Bible's history as described by Luke in his Gospel and in the Book of Acts. Ramsay and his professors were convinced that the New Testament record must be terribly inaccurate. He believed that Luke could not be correct in his history of Christ or in his account about the growth of the Church during the first decades following Christ. Dr. Ramsay began to dig in the ancient ruins of sites throughout Greece and Asia Minor, searching for ancient names, boundary markers, and other archeological finds that would conclusively prove that Luke had invented his history of Christ and His Church. To his amazement and dismay, William Ramsay discovered that the statements of the New Testament Scriptures were accurate in the smallest detail. Finally, Dr. Ramsay was convinced by the overwhelming evidence proving the Bible's accuracy. As a result, he accepted Jesus Christ as His personal Savior. He became both a Christian and a great biblical scholar. As a result of his conversion to belief in Jesus Christ, Sir William Ramsay's books became classics in the study of the history of the New Testament. Another great scholar, A. N. Sherwin-White, was a great classical historical scholar at Oxford University who studied the extensive evidence for and against the historical accuracy of the Book of Acts. Sherwin-White wrote his conclusion after studying the evidence, "For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming . . . any attempt to reject its basic historicity even in matters of detail must now appear absurd" (Quoted by Rubel Shelley, Prepare To Answer [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1990]).

Dr. William F. Albright was unquestionably one of the world's most brilliant biblical archeologists. In 1955 he wrote: "We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after circa A.D. 80." However, additional discoveries over the next decade convinced him that all the books in the New Testament were written "probably sometime between circa A.D. 50 and 75." Significantly, Albright concluded that the writing of the New Testament within a few years of the events it described made it almost impossible that errors or exaggeration could have entered the text. He wrote that the duration between the events of Christ's life and the writing was "too slight to permit any appreciable corruption of the essential center and even of the specific wording of the sayings of Jesus." In other words, Professor Albright, one of the greatest minds in the field of archeology and ancient texts, concluded that the New Testament records the truth about Jesus Christ and his statements.

Dr. John A. T. Robinson was a distinguished lecturer at Trinity College, Cambridge and developed a reputation as a great scholar. Naturally, he accepted the academic consensus universally held since 1900, that denied the disciples and Paul wrote the New Testament and concluded that it was written up to a hundred years after Christ. However, an article in Time magazine, March 21, 1977, reported that Robinson decided to personally investigate for himself the arguments behind this scholarly consensus against the New Testament's reliability because he realized that very little original research had been completed in this field in this century. He was shocked to discover that much of past scholarship against the New Testament was untenable because it was based on a "tyranny of unexamined assumptions" and what he felt must have been an "almost willful blindness." To the amazement of his university colleagues, Robinson concluded that the apostles must have been the genuine writers of the New Testament books in the years prior to A.D. 64. He challenged other scholars to complete original research necessary to truly examine the question fairly. As a result of such a new analysis Robinson believed that it would necessitate "the rewriting of many introductions to-and ultimately, theologies of-the New Testament." Robinson's book, Redating the New Testament, published in 1976, suggests that Matthew's Gospel was written as early as A.D. 40, within eight years of Christ.

Archeology has been continually proving the New Testament to be a reliable source of history. Many people, places and customs spoken of in the New Testament has now been confirmed to be true.

For example, the pool of Bethesda described in John 5:2 has been located in the north*east quarter of the old city of Jerusalem called Betheza.

The fact that Gallio was proconsul of Archaia as stated in Acts 18:12 has been proven correct through inscriptions found.

In 1968 the first physical evidence of crucifixion as a form of punishment was found when archeologist discovered heel bones still tranfixed by an iron nail.


That is just a start. But we'll be glad to get more into it latter

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
Godzilla, I believe the point is, that a disagreement is fine. But, how we disagree is another thing. Simply move from an aspect to respect each other and things will go perfectly fine.



[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is beneficial for everyone. That's all I was saying. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I came from one with strict Catholic up bringing and then say the Priest caught in fraud and the so called religious teachers treating other people like trash cause they felt they were better then them.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand what your saying Godzila. This is a mistake many make, and its unfortunate.

Man is sinful, we make mistakes. God is not, he does not make mistakes. He is holy and perfect. This is why we follow his word, and not man made religions. Like the one you were following and caused you to lose your faith.

As JW pointed out, he has preserved it for us perfectly. I am not telling you to listen to me, but to God. That's all; you will never hear me defend man or there actions.

[soccerchick]

in one word - ~YES~

too many freaky things have happened to me and people i know to think that it was just coincidence!

my friend and i really want to go on a haunted castle tour of europe one day! although i'm not to big on actaully sleeping in one of those places, because i'm too much of a chicken!

[Barbelzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Godzilla said:
That's what I'm asking too. Like I said, the bible contradicts itself. Call Jesus what you want, but it all intensive purposes he was a ghost. Things like this is why religion is man made and God deserves more credit in its power then is portrayed in books like the Bible, Koran, and Torah (among others.).

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you are trying to be funny or just aren't that bright concerning the Bible. Jesus was not a ghost. Thats the whole point, he was resurrected- alive again after the crucifixion, not a ghost. I'm sure someone else will address this, I haven't read past this yet. I'll agree that there are legitimate questions and even some problems you could come up with to argue against Christianitity, but what you are saying is ridiculous. There is no contradiction on this topic in the Bible.

[Barbelzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Godzilla said:
In what way was I rude? All I stated was that the bible seems to contradicts itself AND that God deserved more credit then what the bible or anyother religious text gives it. It sounds like you just didn't like that I question what you believe. If it seemed rude then I'm sorry. All I did was state an observation that I've seen over the years. It seems that you like to follow the bible word for word, fine by me, but I disagree with that ideal.

Steven D.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think youi were rude because the question or comment really, quite frankly, was completely fartfetched and not accurate to what the Bible says. Then, without waiting on an answer you say... "that why the Bible isn't true." I think its fine to criticize the Bible, but you need to have an intelligent point that is accurate or simply ask a question if you don't know. Don't twist whats in the Bible and say "look it contradicts itself." The point you were making was a little ridiculous.

[Adam Knowlden]

Two things here.

1. I can't figure out what you're getting out of what I said. I did not say there were no ghosts/spirits, I said ghosts/spirits on the earth are NOT the ghosts/spirits of human beings.

There are only two types of pure spirits on earth.

1. God
2. Angels

In the angel category there are ministering spirits, or God's holy angels, or fallen angels, ie. demons.

Any time ministering spirits are mentioned in the bible, they do not come to haunt or tomrment people. They always say "Do not be afraid", and they come to deliever a message.

Demons on the other hand come to trick people and torment people. Satan is also called, "the prince of the air". I have no doubt that some of the more powerful demons can manipulate matter in a sense that they can appear to people.

While the weaker ones enter people, ie. demonic possession.

But it is completely biblically unsound to suggest that people are stuck on the earth to haunt and torment people.

Let's look at this story Jesus told.

<font color="red"> 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

</font>

Abraham made it clear that there is a gulf fixed that once you are dead, you can not leave and come back to earth.

<font color="blue"> And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.</font>

Now most say that spirits stay here because of some unfinished business. Let's look closer at verses 28 and 31.

<font color="green"> For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment </font>


<font color="brown"> And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
</font>

Now if the rich man didn't have unfinished business, I don't know who did. Yet he was in hell, not on earth haunting his brothers. This is a true story straight from the mouth of God, and explains it all for me.

As far as biblical contradictions. I have studied the bible for years as well as Jacob and Venom, and in all sincerity I have found zero contradictions.

What I have found is verses taken out of context, equivication, and switch and bait tactics. No true contradicions.

Let me give an example using the forum rules:

[ QUOTE ]
Respect each and every member

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
There is tolerance allowed in this area

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst form of out of context possible.

Purposely leaving out parts of other scriptures that further expains the first part. Notice here I intentinally left out a vital word, ZERO.

This is the number one attack with people claiming contradictions. Intentionally ignoring the meaning of a scriputre as it pertains to the context. I can't tell you how many times people do this. In fact I have seen entire sites that do this. A terrible flow of logic.

Now let's look at a switch and bait tactic:

[ QUOTE ]
There are thousands of posts made here every week.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The boards are not for that.


[/ QUOTE ]

What have I done? I have purposely switched a quote around so that it appears to contradict itself. When in reality the first quote has nothing to do with the second quote!

These are the two most common occurances of biblical "contradiction".

[President Wilson]

That was awesome Old School, and you painted exactly how they make out of context contradictions.

[SirLiftsaLot]

Ok first and foremost I am a christian, and do not believe in any type of purgatory. However, can you explain why all the personal things that have happened to me, such as witnessing a ghost open a door and walk across the room. Seeing someone sitting in a chair. The reason it still messes with me is both instances happened near or just after a death in the family. Right after my aunt died(she was murdered), she was also living with my family at the time, her doorknob in her room always would shake when I was in the adjoining room. Then after my uncle died(car accident) we would walk into the bar(my parents own a tavern) turn on the lights and the chair he would sit in would be moving. So long story short why did these things happen right after or near after a death, and a violent death at that?

[GMoore]

Of course. There are lots of things out there we don't know about. Read about dimensions.

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
SirLiftsaLot said:
Ok first and foremost I am a christian, and do not believe in any type of purgatory. However, can you explain why all the personal things that have happened to me, such as witnessing a ghost open a door and walk across the room. Seeing someone sitting in a chair. The reason it still messes with me is both instances happened near or just after a death in the family. Right after my aunt died(she was murdered), she was also living with my family at the time, her doorknob in her room always would shake when I was in the adjoining room. Then after my uncle died(car accident) we would walk into the bar(my parents own a tavern) turn on the lights and the chair he would sit in would be moving. So long story short why did these things happen right after or near after a death, and a violent death at that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Demons are very real, and they are fallen angels. So, it is very possible. Revelation shows several demonic spirits.

[Chicker]

I've heard some pretty interesting stories about ghosts...but I think the first thing that comes to mind when people mention ghosts is this one show where they were talking about ghosts in pictures.
It was a picture of this little kid and he always had this white line, almost looked like spraypaint. I don't know how many of you use Adobe Photoshop, but there's a type of line you can draw that looks EXACTLY like the "ghost" in the pictures. Hehe... /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RichW]

Nope! I used to but now I see that they are nothing more than manifestations of demonic activity.
Remeber Satan is the father of lies and confusion. He will use any means to draw us away from God. The Bible tells us he is like a roaring lion always on the prowl trying to devour.
I have heard people say that Ghosts can't hurt you and demons would try and hurt you. Well, causing you to question God and drawing you away from the Truth and eventually putting your soul in jeaopardy is pretty hurtful in my estimation.

[William Ustav]

I need to shed some light over the Angels part - I've always wondered about this.

1) Exactly WHO are angels? Are they people who die? If so, can't they 'visit' earth?

2) What are fallen angels? What makes them fallen???

I've always believed in ghosts as kind of angels, or angel spirits, but now Adam's, Venom's and Jacob's posts made me doubt everything of that, but at the same time understand nothing /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif Aren't angel's sort of ghosts in that case?

[RichW]

[ QUOTE ]
I need to shed some light over the Angels part - I've always wondered about this.

1) Exactly WHO are angels? Are they people who die? If so, can't they 'visit' earth?

2) What are fallen angels? What makes them fallen???

I've always believed in ghosts as kind of angels, or angel spirits, but now Adam's, Venom's and Jacob's posts made me doubt everything of that, but at the same time understand nothing Aren't angel's sort of ghosts in that case?


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'll anser this to the best of my ability. I am no theologan and don't have half the insight and knowledge as OS, Venom,Yu and JW so keep that in mind! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Ok, here goes,

<font color="blue"> 1) Exactly WHO are angels? Are they people who die? If so, can't they 'visit' earth? </font>
No Angels are beings created by God. They are Gods messengers.Angels do and have visited earth.


<font color="blue"> 2) What are fallen angels? What makes them fallen???</font>
Angels, like humans, were created with freewill. Fallen Angels are the Angles who turned their back on God to Follow Satan. Satan was the top dog, the most powerful being God had created. He decided he wanted tp place himself higher than God and took legions of Angels with him.

<font color="blue"> Aren't angel's sort of ghosts in that case? </font>

No. A ghost is supposedly the spirit of one who was once alive but who is now dead. Angels are created beings who are very much alive and who live with God and do his will.

Hope that helps.

[Venom]

Rich summed it up. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And here are some more verses for you William (click the blue letters):

And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.... (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/audio-bible.pl?translation=kjv&amp;title=Hebrews%201:1-14&amp;file=Hebrews_001&amp;start=4.52&amp;end=)
Satan cast down like an abdominal branch! (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/audio-bible.pl?translation=kjv&amp;title=Isaiah%2014:1-32&amp;file=Isaiah_014&amp;start=1.76&amp;end=)

Psalms 78:40-49
40 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert! 41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. 42 They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy. 43 How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan: 44 And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink. 45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them. 46 He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust. 47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost. 48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts. 49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Hell was made for Satan and his angels. Which followed him when he rebelled against the most high. These are demons, or fallen angels.

We actually shall be made equal to the angels of God when we get to heaven. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif Very exciting! Here is some more for you:

Luke 20:27-38
27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, 28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife. 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Psalms 103:19-22
19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all. 20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. 21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. 22 Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.


And if you don't understand this just ask. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[William Ustav]

Hmmm... it's still a bit confusing, but I got the part with Angels being created by God, and fallen angels. But, first of all, can the people in paradise look down and see me for example? (or something similar) And exactly who is Satan, is he also a fallen angel, but like a Big Boss??? /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

(Thanks for the replies, BTW!)

[RichW]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm... it's still a bit confusing, but I got the part with Angels being created by God, and fallen angels. But, first of all, can the people in paradise look down and see me for example? (or something similar) And exactly who is Satan, is he also a fallen angel, but like a Big Boss???


[/ QUOTE ]

As to folks looking down, I'm not real sure. I wouldn't think they would want to. I mean (this is not based on the Bible just my opinion) the Earth next to Heaven would be like a sewer. Why would you want to take your eyes off the Glory of God for one moment to look back at a sewer?
I think they know things like when a soul is saved they rejoice etc. but as far as the day to day goings on of earth I doubt it.

As to who exactly is Satan I touched on that before...
[ QUOTE ]
2) What are fallen angels? What makes them fallen???
Angels, like humans, were created with freewill. Fallen Angels are the Angles who turned their back on God to Follow Satan. Satan was the top dog, the most powerful being God had created. He decided he wanted tp place himself higher than God and took legions of Angels with him.


[/ QUOTE ]

Satan was an Angel. The highest. He was the leader of all the Angles. The Archangel of Archangels. He wanted to position himself above God and was cast down from heaven. He hates God and hates us because God loves us. He tries to get back at God by destroying us.

[GetPsycho]

wow, this thread has gotten deep

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
But, first of all, can the people in paradise look down and see me for example?

[/ QUOTE ]
1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

We won't know what God has prepared for us till we get there. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif But I think so, this doesn't really affect the subject though.

[ QUOTE ]
And exactly who is Satan, is he also a fallen angel, but like a Big Boss???

[/ QUOTE ]

Matthew 12:22-28
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

All demons are in Satan's Kingdom. He is their leader.

Ephesians 6:10-18
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

This is our warfare. Against Satan and his minions. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So Satan is the leader of all spiritual wickedness. And as you see in Old School study, he will make one last stand against the most high. But it will not work once again:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
GetPsycho said:
wow, this thread has gotten deep

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[renob]

ok so satan was the top dog and wanted to be the biggest and best. he wanted to be bigger and better then god. so he became a fallen angel. now you say that satan can posses matter and causes confusion and lie, but isnt there always confusion? so if im confused on how lets say a circuit board works, thats caused by satan?

and you say ghosts are demonic and spirits and from god. (correct me if im wrong please because i do not understand some of this) So is it possible that people get spirits and demons mixed up? like maybe say before when sirliftsalot said that he saw his aunt and uncle that maybe god chose an angel and they looked like his aunt and uncle to deliver him a message, and he thought they were ghosts when in fact they were spirits and thought that was something from satan when it was really something from God?

i dont know im confused please correct me on some of this, because i want to learn about this.

BTW, JW, Venom, OldSchool, are you guys like preists or ministers or something? ( i don't know all the terms you have for it im Jewish)

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
ok so satan was the top dog and wanted to be the biggest and best. he wanted to be bigger and better then god. so he became a fallen angel.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what's funny? Even Satan knew he couldn't be better than God! That's why he said:

Isaiah 14:4-23
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

See, he knew he couldn't go higher. He just wanted to be the highest.

[ QUOTE ]
now you say that satan can posses matter and causes confusion and lie, but isnt there always confusion? so if im confused on how lets say a circuit board works, thats caused by satan?

[/ QUOTE ]

John 8:44-45
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There is a difference between lacking knowledge and confusion. Satan try's to confuse people with hundreds of false religions, and hundreds of easily accessible evil distractions such as Vegas, and such like.

http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/Narrow_Gate.jpg

He is a liar and hates God as rich said. His lies and confusion is everywhere, anything to keep people away from the truth.

[ QUOTE ]
and you say ghosts are demonic and spirits and from god. (correct me if im wrong please because i do not understand some of this) So is it possible that people get spirits and demons mixed up? like maybe say before when sirliftsalot said that he saw his aunt and uncle that maybe god chose an angel and they looked like his aunt and uncle to deliver him a message, and he thought they were ghosts when in fact they were spirits and thought that was something from satan when it was really something from God?


[/ QUOTE ]

Angels are Spirits, the question was on ghosts. Spirits of humans on earth. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I doubt it was an angel of God, but maybe.

[William Ustav]

Hmm... I got the satan part, but I still have trouble with the angels.

Do angels live side by side with the dead people in heaven? And, as for them not wanting to look down on us, say my grandma died, and really loved me. Is it impossible for her to help me in any way? Because sometimes I have kind of felt her presence, or felt that hse has helped me in some ways. It that just a trick by satan? And if so, why? It only increased my faith in God, because at that time I had no idea of the things you told me here about angels and spirits. Wouldn't satan be doing a favor for God in doing so?

Or, if it was "just" God who made me feel as if grandma was present, wouldn't that be like he was decieving me? And last time I checked, that's not something that God likes. Hm... the plot thickens...

(It's unbelievable how much my knowledge of the Bible and god has increased in this thread /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I guess I have to thank GP for starting this /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
me if im wrong please because i do not understand some of this

[/ QUOTE ]

Good questions bro!

[ QUOTE ]
now you say that satan can posses matter and causes confusion and lie, but isnt there always confusion?

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as manipulating matter in the sense of appearing to people we don't know his limitations in this area. His limitations of this are not clear in the bible. We know that the Holy Spirit is refraining the devil from completely doing as he wishes here.

But we see in the second half of the tribulation that satan is allowed to manipulate this world to his pleasing.

We don't know Satan's constraints to the dimensions we exist in right now.

But clearly he has some power to manipulate them.

<font color="red"> 1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.


</font>

Hear this chapter in real player

http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/luke_4.html

[ QUOTE ]
the devil said unto him/ And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time./ And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:


[/ QUOTE ]

As you can see, satan does have some ability to manifest our dimensions. He talked to Jesus and lifted Him up.

Now as far as the spiritual realm, the bible says there is constant warfare going on that we are not even aware of.

The bible calls it the invisible realm, obviously referring to some dimension outside of our own. The spiritual realm has a profound inpact on the physical realm and vice versa. That is why prayer is so powerful. And the bible calls the armour of the spirit our weapons in this invisible battel field.

<font color="blue"> 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
</font>

Satan and his hordes are defenietly active in the spirit realm. As far as manipulating the physical by passing through to our dimensions we know he has some ability to do so, but how much is not told to us in the bible.

I personally feel from studying the Word, that only the more powerful demons can do this. While the majority of demons can not. Demons can not possess people without invitation(which can be done by indirect invitation-that's why I tell you guys to stay clear of ouijia boards and tarrot cards), but they can impress people with sin, depression, guilt, etc. Even Christians. This is a whole other thread.

[ QUOTE ]
so if im confused on how lets say a circuit board works, thats caused by satan?


[/ QUOTE ]

As far as ghosts are concerned here. God never even intended for there to be death! Death was brought into the world by Adam's sin.

<font color="green">Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

</font>

<font color="purple"> 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

</font>

[ QUOTE ]
and spirits and from god.

[/ QUOTE ]

All spirits are from God. But there are no human spirits roaming free on earth.

Death always means "seperated from" in the bible.

When we die we are "seperated from" our spirit.

At the point of seperation the bible says the spirit returns to God.

It is not left here to wonder the earth in torment.

[ QUOTE ]
Do angels live side by side with the dead people in heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]

Angels and people both live in heaven with The Lord.

[ QUOTE ]
Because sometimes I have kind of felt her presence, or felt that hse has helped me in some ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Born again believers do have guardian angels.

It is possible an angel was comforting you.

The bible is not clear on whether our departed loved ones know what's happening to us on earth.

We do know that the angels rejoice when someone gets saved.

And I'm sure that's a sight to behold and I'm sure everyone in heaven knows about it. I'm sure your grandma knows you are saved, and knows she will see you again.

We do know that when you die you either go to heaven(with God) or hell(apart from God).

But your grandma could be praying for you in heaven and there may be some connection there.

But she is not directly coming down to help you.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
It that just a trick by satan? And if so, why? It only increased my faith in God, because at that time I had no idea of the things you told me here about angels and spirits. Wouldn't satan be doing a favor for God in doing so?


[/ QUOTE ]
James 1:16-17
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Sounds like a very good gift friend. This came from God, but as O.S said God comforts us in innumerable ways.

And I am sure your grandma is very proud of you, and the Lords displaying this as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Do angels live side by side with the dead people in heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]
They aren't dead people; God is a God of the living, not the dead. And yes, we will be with them in heaven. O.S goes over several scenes in revelation with his study. You'll see there.

[William Ustav]

Okay, thanks!!! I think I got most of the parts here, after reading them through again! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif You guys sure know a lot!!! I might just for the sake of it ask, can angels/demons materialize and look like people or be people?

This is really all new for me, thanks guys!!!

[William Ustav]

bump

[Adam Knowlden]

Yes they can. It's happend quit a bit in the bible.

However, angels always have a mission. They don't just materialize for no good reason. Also angels don't materialize into people we would recognize. They always appear as themselves.

<font color="green"> 1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
</font>

<font color="blue"> 1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.

2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)

4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.

7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.

9 And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.

10 When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.

11 And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews.
</font>

[William Ustav]

Thank's Adam!!!

[Nasty]

Now I don't understand this thread at all... /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif What happened to ghosts and hauntings? I FEAR Freddie Cougar! Omg, he's so scary...

[awds]

i believe in ghosts and hauntings and also aliens. i think you only get haunted if your afraid , and ghosts appear when you being really scare , because when i was a kid i used to be afraid to just walk down my hallway , cause i was afraid of ghosts and it was because i was afraid and scared. And also my room door used to always slam shut hard even when theres no windows open or any wind. And even one time i was eating dinner and i saw some one at the staircase looking at me then disappeared and i even went and tryed to find it but found nothin lol. but now i just forgot about those things and nothin ever haunts or scare me anymore. unless i think about it haha

[lLOCO]

i think there's life after death for sure and "ghosts" are lost souls that were not successful in their transition from life on earth to the other side.