The Holy Trinity [Archive] - ABCbodybuilding

Venom

04-10-2003, 04:31 PM

Introduction: 

http://www.thelightanddarkseries.com/giatw/GOINTOALLTHEWORLD.jpg

JW, Old School, and I have had the privilege of composing a study concerning the topic of the Holy Trinity. It's quite lengthy so make sure you grab a protein shake. Actually its so lengthy, I have to put it in two posts. Also, I would recommend you say a prayer for wisdom and understanding before you read this.

 Outline: 
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Christ called God directly
Trinity discussed in scripture
Examples of the Trinity
Titles of Christ
More on the God Head
Power/positions/abilities only God possess:
More prophecies

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Called God directly: 
John 1: 1 - 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Here John calls Christ God and In the beginning with God. And we'll see this in Geneses as well shortly.

John 20:26-29
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Again Thomas calls him God than worships him! And the only thing Christ repukes him of is being so slow to believe and give glory to him.

 Isaiah 7:10-14
10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD. 13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:21-25
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Jesus is called Emmanuel, which means God with us! And prophesied by Isaiah who is incredible.

Psalms 45:6-9
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. 9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Hebrews 1:7-9
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God anoints God; we will get into this again later. But as you see Christ is called God by the father.

 Isaiah 9: 6- 7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. 

Here Christ is called the mighty God and everlasting father. We will expound on this also shortly.

This is just a taste, 7 complete verses calling Jesus directly God.

 Where it mentions the Trinity: 

I John 5: 7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Once again saying Christ(the Word as said in John, revelation, and several other places) the Spirit, and the father are one.

John 14:5-11
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Again, Christ says if you see him you see the father, Phillip asks to see the father and Christ says your looking at him!

Rev. 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Again, showing their oneness, yet separateness. Jesus declares He is the Almighty, and also the Lamb.

John 10: 25-31
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus just flat out comes out and says he and the father are one! And again the Jews tried to stone him, but his time had not come.

 Mt 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

They are all one in the same, this makes the Trinity. Once again showing there completeness together.

 John 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Again saying he and his father are one, and he wants to church to be one body as they are one.

 Mark 1:10-11
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/Transfiguration.jpg

The spirit descended like a dove on Jesus, and the voice from heaven proclaimed the Father's approval of Jesus as his divine Son. That Jesus is God's divine Son is the foundation for all we read about Jesus in the Gospels. Here we see three members of the Trinity together - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

That's just a few examples, and we will get into this much more.

Examples of Trinity: 

John 14:5-11
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake


Now, when John is raptured up in revelation he sees the Father on the Throne, and if we take a close look we can see that Jesus is directly reflected in the father. As the father is reflected in him.

Revelation 4:1-11

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


John says that God's appearance was like the crystal sparkling luminescence of a "jasper" stone combined with the blood red of a "sardine stone" (a stone named after the area in which it is found around Sardis). There is wonderful significance to these particular stones and their colors that emanate from the Father's throne.

Check this out! There were twelve stones sown on the High Priest's vest in the Old Testament, one for each of the twelve tribes of Israel. The "jasper" and "sardine" stones were the first and last stones on the vest.

 The jasper stone represented the tribe of Ruben whose name meant "behold a son".

 The sardine stone was for the tribe of Benjamin whose name meant "son of my right hand".

The fact that the Father's throne here is reflecting the colors of these two stones indicates His great love for and unit with the Son. This throne also belongs to Jesus who had been continuously seated there at his right hand since he ascended back to Heaven. Also we need to understand that both the Father and the Son reflect one another.

The Father, who is one in essence with his Son, is emanating the colors that are associated with him. I believe that this speaks of the fact that in divine essence the Father and the Son are truly one.

Now here is a great verse, pay attention!

Isaiah 48: 1-22
1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.
3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;
5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.


Here once again God reminds Isreal of the Holy prophecies, and scriptures he blessed them with, giving them the future before it happened! Yet, not revealing it to them in understanding as prophecied.

 Matthew 13:13-23
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


Moving on in the verse of Isaiah:

 9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I:

 Lets look at the titles given here by God:
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The first and last
The one who reveals secrets from the beginning to the end.
Lord and God of Israel. He gives his praise to no other.
Creator of heaven earth, and all things.
From the beginning there he is. He has made what he does open to all.
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To name a few, so clearly this is the one and only God. Lets continue.

and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.


That's right, the Lord God and his Spirit send to you the Lord God! Amazing verse.

 Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen. 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us , to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen. 11:6-8
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down , and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Isaiah 6: 1 - 13
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


As you see, the Lord is talking to a couple of others. And here is why, and who:

 John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 

Because he was conferring with Christ and the Holy Ghost. And you'll see God do this all throughout scripture.

 Psalm 45:1-17,
1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.
9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;
11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.
12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour.
13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.
14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.
15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.
17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.

Hebrews 1: 7 - 9
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/Throne.jpg

God anoints God.

Psalm 110:1-7
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

The Lord puts his enemies under the Lord's footstool, and makes him High Priest forever!

Hebrews 7:11-28
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Matthew 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

This is a very big study, which I am sure we will discuss later. But as you see the Lord anointed the Lord, put his enemies under his footstool, and made him the Holy Priest forever!

 Titles of Christ:


God calls himself I AM.

Exodus 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM : and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.


This stands for the self sufficient/excisting one. Very powerful title only given to God.

John 8: 56-59
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I Am . 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


And here Christ calls himself the I AM. Making himself Jehovah. And the Jews recognized it, and were about to stone him!

God calls himself the First and the last, alpha and omega.

Isaiah 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isaiah 41:4
4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Revelation 21:6-8
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 1: 8
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


God is the first and the last, Alpha and Omega. The almighty. There are non-before or after him. Lets look at Christ's titles.

 Revelation 1:9-20
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 22:12-17
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Christ is the Alpha and Omega, first and last, the Almighty God!

God is the great king, and the King of Isreal, there are no Kings greater:

 Psalms 24: 7 - 10
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Psalms 47:1-9
1 O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph. 2 For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. 3 He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. 4 He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah.

5 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. 6 Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises. 7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. 8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness. 9 The princes of the people are gathered together, even the people of the God of Abraham: for the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted.

Isaiah 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Psalms 5:1-2
1 Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation. 2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.


So again, God is the king of Isreal, and the highest of all kings. Lets look at Christ:

 Revelation 17:14
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Matthew 21:1-11
1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, 2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an (!@#$%^&*) tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. 3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. 4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an (!@#$%^&*), and a colt the foal of an (!@#$%^&*). 6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, 7 And brought the (!@#$%^&*), and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. 8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. 9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. 10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? 11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 27:11
11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

1 Timothy 6: 13 - 16
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 Timothy 1:16-17
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/Silent_Night.jpg

Woooooooo! Those are some powerful titles! But as we see, Christ is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. There are no Kings or Lords higher. He is the only power, as Paul says the only Potentate

And God is also called the Lord:

Isaiah 5:16
16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Isaiah 6:1-4
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

Lets look at Christ's titles again:

 Acts 10:34-43
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

1 Timothy 6: 13 - 16
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 

Christ is Lord of lords And Lord of all.

God is also the Almighty:

Rev. 4:8
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Then later we hear Jesus talking!

 Rev. 1: 8
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


And again we see he is the first and last.

God is also called the father:

Isaiah 6:8
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 John 1:1-4
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.


Lets look at Christ's titles:

Isaiah 9: 1 - 7
1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. 2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Matthew 4:12-17
12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; 13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


As you see, this is a direct prophecy quoted in the gospels; lets look further into the verse.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Christ is called the King of Peace, a child given unto us, the Son of God, the governor, sitting on the throne of David. With that said, this entire chapter is about Christ, and he is also called the "everlasting father" and "mighty God".

 John 14:4-11
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 10:22-31
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


We will get more into these verses later. But as you see, if you see Christ you see the father. They are one and the same! Christ is the everlasting father, the Mighty God!

These are just a few titles of God, and there is so much more! But as you see, Christ is the most High all throughout scripture.

 Power/positions/abilities only God possess:


Only savior


Simply put, there is no Savior except God himself.

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45:20-25
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me 

Flat out there is no other Salvation. Lets look at Christ:

Acts 4:8-12
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


That's pretty conclusive ah? There is no salvation but Christ! There's more:

 Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 

As we see, Christ is the only salvation, and God is the only salvation. That's because he is God.

Also, Christ forgives sins himself:

 Luke 5
20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?

23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?

24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

1 John 1:7

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


This was also prophecied:

Matthew 8:14-17
14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. 15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them. 16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


Christ forgives, heals, and remits sins

Concerning sin, all have sinned period. Only God is without sin, he is Holy and perfect!

 Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:9-18
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Psalms 14: 1-7
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. 7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.


As we see, every single man that is born is under sin. If you say you haven't sinned you are calling God a liar, and the truth is not in you. Now lets look at the Man Christ Jesus:

 Hebrews 4:14-15
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

2 Corinthians 5: 21 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:4-64 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 

Christ was without sin, knew no sin, and was perfect! Than he came down, as the lamb of God and took all our iniquities on his back. So once again, only God is without sin, and that is why he had to come and take ours away.

Now, all three members of the Trinity are involved in salvation. The Father loved us so much he sent his Son to bridge the gap between us ( 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ). The father and Son send the Holy Spirit to fill our lives with love and to enable us to live by his power.

http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/At_the_Hearts_Door.jpg

 Titus 3:4-6
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Titus 2: 10-13
10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. 10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1 Timothy 4:10
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Romans 8:1-9
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.[note that Paul says you must have the Spirit of God] Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [than he says the Spirit of God is Christ's Spirit! Which you must have to be saved] 

As shown, there is one savior and this savior is The Almighty. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.

 Scroll down to the next post for more.

Venom

04-10-2003, 04:32 PM

http://www.thelightanddarkseries.com/ei/EI.jpg

More on the God Head 

COL 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

To know him was to know God (John 8:19; 14:7); to see him was to see God (John 12:45; 14:9); to believe in him was to believe in God (John 12:44); to receive him was to receive God (Mark 9:37); to hate him was to hate God (John 15:23); and to honour him was to honour God (John 5:23).

He accepted Thomas' acknowledgment, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28,29).

Forgiveness would be preached in his name (Luke 24:47). He was greater than the temple, the prophet Jonah and king Solomon (Matthew 12:6, 41, 42). He allowed himself to be worshipped (Matthew 14:33; John 9:38). He could take a quotation from the Old Testament that referred to God and use it of himself (Matthew 21:15,16 - quoting from Psalm 8:1,2). He was the one who had sent the prophets of old to gather together God's people (Matthew 23:37).

Jesus claimed the right to forgive sins (Matthew 9:1-8; Luke 7:48,49)

Here's an awesome quote from the man himself, C.S. Lewis:

Quote:
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Now unless the speaker is God, this is really so preposterous as to be comic. We can all understand how a man forgives offences against himself. You tread on my toe and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, himself unrobbed and untrodden on, who announced that he forgave you for treading on other men's toes and stealing other men's money? Asinine fatuity is the kindest description we should give of his conduct. Yet this is what Jesus did. He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin. In the mouth of any speaker who is not God these words would imply what I can only regard as a silliness unrivalled by any other character in history.

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He declared himself to be the only one who knew the Father, and therefore the only one who could reveal him to others (Matthew 11:27; John 6:46). He was one with the Father (John 10:30,38). Everything that belonged to the Father belonged to him (John 16:15; 17:10). The Father would send the Holy Spirit to believers in his name (John 14:26). To have our prayers answered we are to ask the Father in his name (John 14:13; 15:16; 16:23,24). He claimed to be the Son of God - not a son of God (Matthew 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,17; 21:33-41; Luke 22:70; John 1:49,50; 5:19-27; 10:36,38, etc.).

He claimed to be a king with the right to rule over others (Matthew 25:34; 27:11; John 1:49,50; 18:37), and spoke of "my kingdom" (Luke 22:29,30; John 18:36). One of his most common ways of describing himself was to call himself the Son of Man. The Son of Man is a figure who appears in the book of the prophet Daniel who is given a kingdom of universal domain and eternal duration (Daniel 7:13,14).

The claim that was perhaps the most startling of all was that one day he would come again, this time in power and glory. All judgement had been committed to him and he would be the one who would call us from our graves for judgement (Matthew 7:22,23; 13:41; 16:27; 24:30; 25:31-46; 26:64; Luke 9:26; John 5:22,23, 27-30; 6:40)

He spoke of the future church as his church and that they would meet in his name (Matthew 16:18; 18:20). He said we could do nothing of significance without having a right relationship with him (John 15:5). Finally he declared that all authority in heaven and earth was his (Matthew 28:18).

You can't have much more authority than that!

For your glory they were created!

Jesus' purpose for coming into the world was to bear witness to the truth and those who were "of the truth" would listen to him (John 18:37). He went further and declared "I am the truth" (John 14:6). He claimed the right to put his own interpretation on the moral commands God had previously given his people through Moses (Matthew 5:21,22,27,28). In Jewish thinking a rabbi's authority only came to him as derived from Moses. Yet in these, and in several other instances, Jesus is plainly claiming an authority superior to that of Moses.

"...the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law" (Matthew 7:29); "The people were all so amazed that they asked one another, 'What is this? A new teaching - and with authority!'" (Mark 1:27)

More evidences from scriptures:

He is constantly given the title "Lord", the word that was consistently used of God in the Greek translation of the Old Testament of the third century BC.

He is referred to as God a number of times (e.g. John 20:28). Paul can declare, "in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9). John says, "He (Jesus) is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20). In the Old Testament he is called "the mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6) the same two Hebrew words used of God in a number of places (e.g. Isaiah 10:21; Jeremiah 32:18).

His pre-existence before coming into this world is constantly assumed and sometimes directly stated (e.g. John 1:1,14).

He was involved in the creation of the universe and it is his power that sustains it (e.g. Colossians 1: 16,17; Hebrews 1: 2,3).

His role as judge of the human race (e.g. John 5:25-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10).

His achievements in reconciling men and women to God and meeting their needs on the journey through life are often described in the same terms as the achievements of God the Father. Their roles often overlap (e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:19; and compare Hebrews 8:12 with Mark 2:5-7). That Paul, an avowed monotheist, should attribute every imaginable activity to him that Judaism reserved for God alone is particularly significant.

http://www.themustard.com/sports/lordsgym.jpg

There are numerous passages showing that we are to give him the same love, loyalty and devotion that we are required to give to God.

He receives the same worship of created beings, in heaven and on earth, as does God the Father (e.g. Revelation 5:11-14 - Jesus is constantly referred to as "the Lamb" in Revelation, the one who was sacrificed for us).

There are quite a number of passages from the Old Testament, quoted in the New Testament, where the original references refer to God, while the New Testament writers refer them to Jesus (e.g. Matthew 21:15,16/Psalm 8:1,2; Philippians 2:9-11/Isaiah 45:22,23).

There are numerous titles or metaphors used of Jesus that are also used of God, such as Saviour, Rock, Light, the Bridegroom, the first and the last, Alpha and Omega, I am, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Shepherd, Master, etc.

The fact that Paul, a person steeped in the Old Testament understanding of the Spirit of God, should so easily call him the Spirit of Christ as well, is as strong a confirmation as one could get of Christ's full divinity (e.g. Romans 8:9).

Now I want to expand on the Holy Spirit some more!

ACT 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost , and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Peter says he lied to The spirit, than says this spirit is God.

The threefold "Holy, holy, holy" of the angel's worship (Isaiah 6:3).

To begin with, the very fact that his full title is the Holy Spirit (used about 90 times in the New Testament) points to his divinity. God is supremely the Holy One in the Bible (Isaiah 57:15). Jesus spoke of the Spirit as the Holy Spirit, as he was later to address God as Holy Father (John 17:11). In this respect Ephesians 1:13 is a significant passage. In the Greek it literally reads, "the Spirit of the promise, the Holy." Both "the promise" and the adjective "holy" are emphasised in the Greek word order. He is not only the one promised by the prophets, he is God himself who has come to live with and in his people. Significantly, Jesus is also "the Holy One" (Acts 3:14).

He is often referred to as "the Spirit of God" in both Old and New Testaments.

The New Testament writers can quote passages from the Old Testament in which God speaks and say, "The Holy Spirit spoke" (e.g. Acts 28:25-27/Isaiah 6:8-10).

Paul's language can fluctuate between God, Christ, and Spirit, depending on the emphasis of a given passage. For example, he can speak of the power of God (2 Corinthians 4:7), the power of Christ (2 Corinthians 12:9) or the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 15:19), all of which are at work in his life. This says much about how Paul viewed Christ and the Spirit in terms of deity and inter-relationship. Or note 1 Corinthians 12, where the subject changes from God in verse 6, to the Spirit in verse 11. Similarly in Acts 5, to lie to the Holy Spirit (verse 3) is to lie to God (verse 4).

Whereas in the Old Testament the temple building signified the place where God lived among his people, in the New Testament the body of believers is the new temple, the place where the Holy Spirit lives in his people (1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:21,22). In the New Testament there is no difference between the way the presence of the Holy Spirit is spoken of and the presence of God. The presence of the Holy Spirit is the presence of God.

One of the most significant descriptions of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament is "the Spirit of life" (Romans 8:2). He is the one who "gives life" (2 Corinthians 3:6). God in the Old Testament is supremely the living God, the source of life in all that lives. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of life because he is the Spirit of God. Significantly, Jesus is also spoken of as "the author of life" (Acts 3:15).

Some of God the Holy Spirit's attributes:

The Spirit convicts people of guilt and judgement (John 16:8)

guides God's people (John 16:13)

tells things that are to come (John 16:13)

brings glory to Jesus (John 16:14)

hears God's truths and makes them known (John 16:13,15)

appoints pastors over God's people (Acts 20:28)

speaks God's message (Acts 28:25, etc.)

bears witness together with our own spirits (Romans 8:16)

helps us in our weakness (Romans 8:26)

intercedes on our behalf (Romans 8:26, 27)

searches all things (1 Corinthians 2:10)

knows the mind of God (1 Corinthians 2:11)

teaches the content of the gospel to believers (1 Corinthians 2:13)

lives among and within believers (1 Corinthians 3:16, etc.)

washes, sanctifies and justifies God's people (1 Corinthians 6:11)

gives gifts to his people as he determines (1 Corinthians 12:11)

gives life to those who believe (2 Corinthians 3:6)

cries out from within our hearts (Galatians 4:6)

leads us in the ways of God (Galatians 5:18)

has desires that are in opposition to the flesh (Galatians 5:17)

strengthens believers (Ephesians 3:16)

is grieved by our sinfulness (Ephesians 4:30)

can be blasphemed (Luke 12:10) and lied to (Acts 5:3)

Intelligence - most of the verbs used above imply intelligence. The Bible speaks of "the mind of the Spirit" (Romans 8:27)

Feelings - he can be grieved or made sad. Joy is a quality often associated with the Holy Spirit

Will - he decides the gifts he gives to his people (1 Corinthians 12:11)

These are the three main characteristics which make up His personality.

Several significant passages that emphasise the personal nature of the Holy Spirit:

"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children" (Romans 8:16). If our own inner spirit has personal qualities, then so also must the Holy Spirit. Both "testify".

"...you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11). If Jesus is personal, then the Holy Spirit must be also.

In Romans 8 the Spirit in our hearts prays for us on earth (verse 27), while Jesus prays for us in heaven (verse 34). This again suggests that as Jesus is a person, so is the Spirit.

"I speak the truth in Christ - I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 9:1). Paul here appeals to his relationship with both Christ and the Holy Spirit for his honesty, implying that as Christ is personal, so must the Spirit also be. Another verse with similar implications is Romans 15:30.

Jesus said the disciples would be better off with the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives than they were with his company and friendship while he was with them on earth (John 16:7). That means the Spirit must at least have the personal qualities that Jesus possessed.

It is significant that the "fruit" that the Spirit produces in believers' lives, "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (Galatians 5:22,23), are chiefly personal qualities, having to do with our relationships. They are also qualities often attributed to God in his relationship with us. A blind "force" or "influence" does not produce love! The Bible also speaks of the "fellowship of the Spirit" (2 Corinthians 13:14; Philippians 2:1). We may enjoy friendship with him and he creates friendship between believers.

The following passages are particularly significant:

At the baptism of Jesus we read, "...he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love...'"(Matthew 3:16:17). You will note that the Spirit descends on Jesus to empower him for his public ministry, while God the Father speaks from heaven.

Jesus' final commands to his disciples, recorded in Matthew's Gospel, includes the command to baptise converts, "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

"In certain ways we are weak, but the Spirit is here to help us. For example, when we don't know what to pray for, the Spirit prays for us in ways that cannot be put into words. All our thoughts are known to God. He can understand what is in the mind of the Spirit, as the Spirit prays for God's people. We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him" (Romans 8:26-28).

"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Corinthians 13:14).

"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit - just as you were called to one hope when you were called - one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:2-6)

How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God" (Hebrews 9:14).

Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God!

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost , and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God .

Final attack!

Here's a list of verses where all three parts of the God head are mentioned, usually within a verse or two of each other!

Matthew 3:16,17 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Hebrew 2:3,4
Matthew 28:19 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Hebrew 3:6,7
Luke 1:35 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 Hebrews 6:4-6
Luke 1:67-69 2 Corinthians 3:3, 4 Hebrew 9:14
John 14:16,17 2 Corinthians 5:5-10 Hebrews 10:12-15
John 14:26 2 Corinthians 13:14 Hebrews 10:29-31
John 15:26 Galatians 3:1-5 1 Peter 1:2
John 16:13-15 Galatians 3:11-14 1 Peter 3:18
John 20:21,22 Galatians 4:4-6 1 Peter 4:14-17
Acts 2:33 Ephesians 1:3-14 2 Peter 1:21-2:1
Acts 2:38,39 Ephesians 2:18 1 John 3:21-24
Acts 7:55 Ephesians 2:22 1 John 4:1,2
Acts 10:38 Ephesians 3:4-7 1 John 4:13,14
Acts 10:46-48 Ephesians 3:14-19 1 John 5:6-9
Acts 11:16,17 Ephesians 4:2-6 Jude 20,21
Romans 5:5,6 Ephesians 5:18-20 Revelation 1:4,5
Romans 8:3,4 Colossians 1:7-10 Revelation 1:9,10
Romans 8:8-11 1 Thessalonians 1:5-10 Revelation 2:7
Romans 8:16,17 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 Revelation 2:26-29
Romans 14:17,18 1 Thessalonians 5:18,19 Revelation 3:5,6
Romans 15:16 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14 Revelation 3:12,13
Romans 15:17-19 1 Timothy 3:15,16 1 Revelation 3:21,22
Romans 15:30 Timothy 4:1-6 Revelation 5:6,7
1 Corinthians 2:8-10 2 Timothy 1:8-14 Revelation 14:12,13
1 Corinthians 2:12-16 Titus 3:4-8 Revelation 22:16-18

 Only worship the Lord 

 Exodus 34:14
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Deuteronomy 5:6-10
6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me. 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 6:4-16
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates. 10 And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, 11 And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full; 12 Then beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. 14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; 15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. 16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another , neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 

As we see, God shares his praise and glory with no one! You can only worship him. Lets again look at Jesus:

 Hebrews 1:4-6
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 
The angels worship Jesus.

John 17:24-26
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

John 17:1-5
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 

The Son and the Father have shared their Glory before the foundation of everything.

http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/Hour_is_Come.jpg
John 13:31-32
31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. 

<ul type="square"> Lets analyze this verse:
The father is glorified in Christ.
Christ is glorified in the father.
The Son is just flat out glorified!
[/list]

 John 16:7-15
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


The Spirit of God glorifies the Son. Because its his spirit, all things of his are the father, and all things of the fathers are his! And the all things of the spirit is there's, and there's the spirits.

Now this one closes the section out:

 Romans 14:11
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Isaiah 45:20-23
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


They'll all bow to God, but what will they confess to him?

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Christ Name is above all names; he is equal with God because he is God. And at his name or Gods name, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that he is Lord to the glory of the Father! Powerful.

 Only Creator/father

 Isaiah 43:1-7
7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Malachi 2:10-17
10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isaiah 64:6-12
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.


God created all things, we only have one father, one God, there is no other than him. They were created for his pleasure, with that said:

http://www.thelightanddarkseries.com/jesus/heisrisen.jpg
John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Colossians 1:12-16
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Romans 11:33-36
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Hebrews 1: 1-12
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high... 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Job 33:4
4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Genesis 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Zechariah 4:6
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts[Great verse!]. 

All things were created by, through, and for Christ Jesus, and the Spirit, and the father. So again, the father, son, and spirit all work together in one.

More prophesies of Christ being God:

We have already discussed several prophecies and scriptures on Christ such as God anointing God, sending God, making him priest, and putting his enemies under his footstool. But we'll cover several more.

 Daniel 

The Messiah had to suffer. This is throughout the entire Hebrew Bible. I will show you that the Messiah, must come in the Flesh, and die for our sins.

Lets start with Daniel. He prophesied to the day when Jesus came into Jerusalem he said:

Daniel 9: "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity [ notice the importance of making a reconciliation for sins, even here, it is stated that a reconciliation must be made in the future. In other words a permanent reconciliation has to be made ]

Isaiah 53 of the Old Testament states
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The Messiah must suffer for our sins. This is clearly in prophecy.

Lets continue on with Daniel Chapter 9

 9: 24 continued: to bring in everlasting righteous

Notice it says everlasting righteousness. But in the law, one must continually sacrifice to make atonement for sins.
This verse speaks of an everlasting righteousness, immediately after speaking of a needed atonement for sins.

 Daniel 9 continued to seal up vision and prophesy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

Pslams says this of anointing the Most Holy

Pslams 45: 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 

And again, notice it says " God, thy God, hath anointed " God anointed God!

 Daniel Continued Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem [fulfilled by Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. See Nehemiah 2:5-8] until Messiah the Prince,

 Again, this is the Messiah, lets look at what must happen to the Messiah 

 Daniel Cont there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ; the street shall be built again, and the wall [accomplished under Nehemiah], even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, [speaking of the cross]

Ok, the Messiah must be cut off! The Old Testament Hebrew bible says this in Isaiah also:

 Isaiah 53:6-8
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The Messiah must be cut off! Why? Lets continue Daniel Chapter 9

Daniel Continued And after the sixty-two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, [speaking of Calvary, where the Lord was crucified] but not for himself.

Well, lets go back to Isaiah:

 for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


That is it in black and white!( actually blue here /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

We know the actual time of the prophetic weeks, because Daniel further breaks them down into the actual time in days several chapters, for example, Daniel discusses the tribulation week here.

 Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Then he clarifies the time here. when he states the exact time of the second half of the week, he states:

And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

What do times mean? A time is a year prophetically. How do we know. Simple, he used this with the king of Babylon here

Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will

We know that the King was punished for 7 years.

Each time that passed over the king, represented a year. Now, going back to the scripture. In the middle of the week, Daniel states that the Antichrist will break the treaty.

Now, the second half of the week is a time and times and a dividing of time. 1 + 2 + 1/2 That is 3 ½ years. That is the second half of the week.

Add 3 ½ year + 3 ½ years, and you get 7 years. The 7 in a week, represents 7 years. Now, this is further expounded on in days in other chapters. And John discusses the second half of the week with these numbers here:

John states that when the antichrist makes his move that: "mouth" (Antichrist) was granted to "continue" for "forty-two months" (42 divided by 12 = 3 1/2 years)

Taking this into account, As far as time periods are concerned, this is an amazingly precise prophecy. Three key portions of it have already been fulfilled. Namely, the proclaiming of the decree to rebuild the wall at Jerusalem; second, the precise fulfillment of the predicted time between that decree and the first coming of Messiah; and finally, the cutting off of Messiah at the cross.

Sir Robert Anderson, calculated the years between Artaxerxes decree (445 B.C.) and the coming of Jesus Christ to earth and found that it was exactly four hundred eighty three years (483). Daniel's prophecy said that from the "going forth of the command" to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of "Messiah" would be "seven weeks" and "sixty-two weeks" (69 "weeks")

From this, simple mathematics made it clear that the 70 "weeks" of Daniel 9, were prophetic weeks or sixty nine time periods of seven years each (7 X 69 = 483 years). Sir Robert Anderson's calculations proved that from Artaxerxes' decree in the days of Nehemiah to the day when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey's colt and presented himself to Israel as their Messiah, was precisely 483 years to the day just as the prophet Daniel had predicted!

But this is just an analysis of Daniel and Isaiah. Man we can go on and on with the fact that The Old Testiment, Hebrew Bible, clearly states that the Messiah must suffer for our sins. And he will be God, and the Savior.

http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/The_Law.jpg

 Zechariah

Lets analyze Zechariah 12, it begins by saying

12: 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

 We agree that this is the Lord speaking. So what does he say latter in this chapter 

Zach 12 continued: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:

 What does he mean by grace? Lets see the rest of the verse 

 Zach cont: 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, 

Lets analyze this it states: And I it then states
and they shall look upon me Well this is the Lord God himself speaking, and he says "I " and " Me " and finally and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced which is Christ.

Revelation 1:3-8
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. 4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


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Pslams 22 talked about this piercing of God, it states:

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

They pierced my hands and my feet.

The Old Testiment, clearly states that the Messiah, who is God must suffer. Lets look at Isaiah again.

Isaiah 7: 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Who is Immanuel? The word in Hebrew is this:

Lawnmm ( to hear its pronunciation click here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=6005h) ) Lawnmm means (and this is from a Hebrew dictionary): "God with us" or "with us is God"
symbolic and prophetic name of the Messiah, that He would be born of a virgin and would be 'God with us'

Lets look more at the Messiah and this " child " to be born in Isaih:

 Isaiah 9. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 

And this child's name will be called " The mighty God " and his Kingdom will last forever!

Revelation 
I also highly recommend you study this prophecy post on The Revelation of Jesus Christ. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=357143& page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

 Conclusion 

This is only a taste of the glory concerning Christ, and his free gift to all mankind. And I believe John sums this up best.

 John 21: 24-25
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

John 20:26-31
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

All this was given that the believer might be edified, and those that haven't accepted Christ might turn to him. Now to close, I lay before you two choices:

 Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life:

http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/The_Only_Way.jpg

Choose life my friends, choose life.

MaxC

04-10-2003, 04:53 PM

I certainly have not had the time to read it all yet, but while scanning it this jumped out at me:

"We will get more into these verses later. But as you see, if you see Christ you see the father. They are one and the same! Christ is the everlasting father, the Mighty God! "

Perhaps you cover this, but how to you correlate that with Philippians 2:5-6 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped 

Clearly Christ is in the same nature of God, but he also doesn't consider equality with God something to be grasped. What's that mean?

BTW, this passge is one of the great ones in describing the identity of Christ:

 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:1-11

Venom

04-10-2003, 05:06 PM

Great question Max! Lets analyze it. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Philippians 2: 5 - 9
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

What this means is this, Christ did not come to prove he was God, or obtain his deity. He had nothing to prove, he did not come to show everyone who he was. But instead he came to serve!

John 13:1-17
1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

As you see, Christ know who he was. He had nothing to prove, now check this out:

4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Christ set an example for us. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So how does this apply to us? Paul says we should have the mindset Christ had. That is, do not try to prove who you are or make a name for yourself as they did in the tower of Babel. But instead look to serve, as Christ came to serve.

James 4:6-10
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Humble yourself, and become a servant. God will take care of the rest. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

04-10-2003, 05:14 PM

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/eek6.gif Whoa! Boy have I got some reading and some listening to do! WOW. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

MaxC

04-10-2003, 05:16 PM

OK, differnt versions--what version did you quote from?

Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

I quoted NIV
 Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (NIV)

Where are the Greek scholars to help me out with "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" vs, "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"

William Ustav

04-10-2003, 05:39 PM

Phew, that's alot of stuff!!! I'll have to print it out /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Adam Knowlden

04-10-2003, 05:39 PM

Good question MaxC, but remember we have to interpert scripture with scripture and take in the total context of the verse given. As in this case, we need to see the entire context of the verse.

 Philippians 2: 5 - 9
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 

Let's also look at it in the Holman Version:

 5 Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. 7 Instead He emptied Himself by assuming the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of men. And when He had come as a man in His external form, 8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death--even to death on a cross. 9 For this reason God also highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow-- of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth-- 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


[ QUOTE ]
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

[/ QUOTE ]

It was this which perfectly displayed itself in Christ, in contrast with the first Adam. Adam sought to make himself like God by robbery(ye shall be as gods;the ability to make one wise), when he was in the form of a man, and strove to exalt himself at God's expense; being at the same time disobedient unto death.

Christ(the second Adam), on the contrary, when He was in the form of God, emptied Himself, through love, of all His outward glory, of the form of God, and took the form of a man; and, even when He was in the form of a man, still humbled Himself.

It was a second thing which He did in humbling Himself As God, He emptied Himself; as man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. God has highly exalted Him; for he who exalts himself shall be humbled? NO! but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.

Perfect love, truth, and obedience! A man by the just judgment and act of God is exalted to the right hand of the throne of the divine Majesty.

God come down in love, man ascended in righteousness; entire love in coming down, entire obedience by love also. Worthy from all eternity as to His Person to be there, He is now as man exalted by God to His right hand. It is an act of righteousness on God's part that He is there; and our hearts can take part in it, rejoicing in His glory-rejoicing also that by grace we have part in it as to our own place.

His humiliation is a proof that He is God. God only could leave His first estate in the sovereign rights of His love; it is sin for any creature to do so. It is also a perfect love. But this proof is given, this love accomplished, in the fact that He is man. What a place has He acquired for us in Himself! God has exalted Him to the highest place, and given Him a name which is above every name!

These verses show that God the Son, although equal with the Father and Holy Spirit, thought so much of us, that He left His glory, and took upon Himself the roll of a servant.

As Venom pointed out, Christ is our example.

[ QUOTE ]
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow-- of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth-- 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[/ QUOTE ]

We also see a bit of prophecy in this verse!

Every knee will bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. This prophecy will fulfill the Will of the Father, which was the ultimate act of servitude Christ exemplified!

Venom

04-10-2003, 05:48 PM

Its the King James, the most accurate version by far. I would quote from there. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And great post O.S! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Adam Knowlden

04-10-2003, 05:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"thought it not robbery to be equal with God" vs, "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"

[/ QUOTE ]

Translate, "Who subsisting (or existing, namely, originally: the Greek is not the simple substantive verb, 'to be') in the form of God (the divine essence is not meant: but the external self-manifesting characteristics of God, the form shining forth from His glorious essence).

His being on an equality with God no (act of) robbery" or self-arrogation; claiming to one's self what does not belong to him. ELLICOTT, WAHL, and others have translated, "A thing to be grasped at," which would require the Greek to be harpagma, whereas harpagmos means the act of seizing.

But the antithesis is not between His being on an equality with God, and His emptying Himself; for He never emptied Himself of the fulness of His Godhead, or His "BEING on an equality with God"; but between His being "in the FORM (that is, the outward glorious self-manifestation) of God," and His "taking on Him the form of a servant," whereby He in a great measure emptied Himself of His precedent "form," or outward self-manifesting glory as God. Not "looking on His own things" (Philippians 2:4), He, though existing in the form of God, He esteemed it no robbery to be on an equality with God, yet made Himself of no reputation.

"Being on an equality with God, is not identical with subsisting in the form of God"; the latter expresses the external characteristics, majesty, and beauty of the Deity, which "He emptied Himself of," to assume "the form of a servant"; the former, "HIS BEING," or NATURE, His already existing STATE OF EQUALITY with God, both the Father and the Son having the same ESSENCE. A glimpse of Him "in the form of God," previous to His incarnation, was given to Moses (Exodus 24:10,11).

Both versions are bringing up the point of Jesus correcting where Adam went wrong!

Adam sought to be "as god" by eating the forbidden fruit.

Instead he should have stayed in the Will of God, which was "the day ye eat of it ye shall surely die".

Christ exemplfied living in the Will of God, by humbeling Himself as opposed to exalting Himself, as Adam tried to do.

MaxC

04-10-2003, 06:00 PM

"did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage." 

The way Holman puts it helps. Of course Adam (and me) would try to use it to our own advanatage, but God in the form of Christ could not.

Adam Knowlden

04-10-2003, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The way Holman puts it helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yes, Holman is a very good translation. In my opinion more accurate with the Greek than NIV.

NIV is good because it's easy to understand, but I wouldn't use it to get into deep studies with.

I like to use it to get the jist of the passage, but for detailed studies, KJV, NKJV, and much better!

I hope that helped! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Yes, Christ as the second Adam is a good topic bro. Maybe we'll cover that more in depth later. It's a whole topic within itself! But very foundational to the meaning of Salvation!

Venom

04-10-2003, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MaxC said:
 "did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage." 

The way Holman puts it helps. Of course Adam (and me) would try to use it to our own advanatage, but God in the form of Christ could not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
And here is another example of someone who tried to be equal with God. Satan himself:

Isaiah 14: 4 - 32
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

If you notice, Satan didn't say he would be above God. But equal, can't go higher than the most high, even Satan knew that. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The Tick

04-10-2003, 09:36 PM

Wow! Great post guys. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Thanks so much. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

04-10-2003, 11:05 PM

04-10-2003, 11:35 PM

Is this thread considered to be a "Christians Only" thread? I've made that mistake before... Would you guys mind if I posted my thoughts and questions?

NJI

04-10-2003, 11:44 PM

It's for those who wish to know more about The Holy Trinity, not start a huge debate of who/what is right/wrong.

You've said you were open minded in the past kade. Yet, you have a atheism picture in your signature, weird. :/

Venom

04-10-2003, 11:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
kinetekade said:
Is this thread considered to be a "Christians Only" thread? I've made that mistake before... Would you guys mind if I posted my thoughts and questions?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Venom said:All this was given that the believer might be edified, and those that haven't accepted Christ might turn to him. Now to close, I lay before you two choices:

 Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life:

http://www.bibleverseart.com/wallpapers/albums/Archives/The_Only_Way.jpg

Choose life my friends, choose life. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not for only Christians. But as seksi stated, if you're going to mock than no. If you want to learn, or have questions feel free.

04-11-2003, 12:06 AM

Post deleted

04-11-2003, 12:17 AM

Venom

04-11-2003, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
CaptainCellulite said:
For those who are blind [to the Lord], let them here it here.
Here The Word Here (http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

Who reads it bro? My favorites are Alexander Scourpy, and James Earl Jones (A.KA Darth vador /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ), there awesome!

04-11-2003, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an awesome quote from the man himself, C.S. Lewis

[/ QUOTE ]

Chronicles of Narnia anyone? /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I can't even remember how I ran across one of the Chronicles of Narnia books but one day back when I was in HS, I found "The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe" and read it. Then I discovered there was a whole series and somebody (friend or relative) bought me the set. But of course I have YET to read the whole series. But anyway, I love those books!! They are right up my alley. I didn't even know they were Christian books until way later. Of course Aslan is my favorite character. Aslan the Great Lion. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anybody else ever read the books? Great books! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Now I just need to finish reading them. Heck I might as well start over. But first I have to finish reading this thread! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Adam Knowlden

04-11-2003, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Chronicles of Narnia anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, C.S. Lewis is the man!

He's an awesome appologetics philospher as well!

oes

04-11-2003, 03:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Venom said:
[ QUOTE ]
CaptainCellulite said:
For those who are blind [to the Lord], let them here it here.
Here The Word Here (http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

Who reads it bro? My favorites are Alexander Scourpy, and James Earl Jones (A.KA Darth vador /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ), there awesome!

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen, Venom. Faith cometh by hearing..

Awesome post, I will have to print and read it more carefully. Thanks guys for your dedication to His work.

Pachyderm2

04-11-2003, 11:25 AM

I'm a huge CS Lewis fan myself. Read the Chronicles of Narnia series several times (when I was a child and later, to my children). Have you read any of his "other" books? Screwtape letters is a fav in my house, as is The Great Divorce and Mere Christianity. Takes me a while to read them though because I have to read a bit then ponder it, read then ponder; totally worth it though.

The movie Shadowlands was made about him and his wife Joy... very good movie - particulary since Hollywood was involved. The "Christian" world made another version but it wasn't nearly as well done.

Funny thing, when I was a kid, my folks wouldn't let me read the Narnia books - the word "witch" in the title freaked them out... now they know better and they're the ones that bought the series for my rugrats!

04-11-2003, 12:20 PM

04-11-2003, 12:53 PM

New Narnia movie(s)! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I really enjoyed the books and older movies when I was younger...

Since Fantasy books were mentioned, are there any Piers Anthony fans here? I've been reading and rereading his books for 5 years now. Regrettably, I've never discussed them.

Pachyderm2

04-11-2003, 04:50 PM

Oh Good! I hope its better than the previous versions I've watched - UGH! They were worse than awful... at least for me.

I've always thought they'd make GREAT movies, if done right! Thanks for the heads up.

04-11-2003, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
CaptainCellulite said:
Chronicles of Narnia has an upcoming movie in the makes.
Chronicles Of Narnia Movie (http://www.narnia.com/)

[/ QUOTE ]

KEWL!! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/biggthumpup.gif

I love fantasy books. And those ones where you got to choose which path to take for different endings ROCKED!! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MaxC

04-11-2003, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pachyderm2 said:
I'm a huge CS Lewis fan myself. Read the Chronicles of Narnia series several times (when I was a child and later, to my children). Have you read any of his "other" books? Screwtape letters is a fav in my house, as is The Great Divorce and Mere Christianity. Takes me a while to read them though because I have to read a bit then ponder it, read then ponder; totally worth it though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have read the Chronicles of Narnia 7 times, 5 times growing up and twice outloud to my kids. I get something new and powerful out of them everytime, most notably a view into the character of God. I have read most of his other books, too. My favotites are The Great Divorce(2X), Till We Have Faces (2X)--still trying to figure it all out, but I do know it's a great one, and of course Mere Christianity (4X). My best prof in college said it was/is the most influential book for him behind the Bible and he reads it every year. IMO, in the 20th century Lewis was to Christianity as Einstein was to science (if such a comparison can be made).

I don't agree with everything he says, but he has been the most influential writer I have read. It is so gratifying to see my kids loving Narnia.

Adam Knowlden

04-11-2003, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't even know they were Christian books until way later

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah many people don't know that.

Lewis and Tolkien were good friends.

Many don't know that Tolkien based a lot of his stories on the Bible as well!

**DONOTDELETE**

04-11-2003, 10:07 PM

04-11-2003, 10:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
Yeah many people don't know that.

Lewis and Tolkien were good friends.

Many don't know that Tolkien based a lot of his stories on the Bible as well!

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool! I didn't know that and I'm a fan of The Hobbits as well! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/biggthumpup.gif

Venom

04-11-2003, 11:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*********** said:

Cool! I didn't know that and I'm a fan of The Hobbits as well! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I love them both to. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Venom

04-11-2003, 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yu Yevon said:

It sounds so cool to hear Darth Vader reading Revelation! "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the Almighty" AWSOME!

[/ QUOTE ]
His pronunciation is so awesome! That and Hebrews are his best books. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

04-12-2003, 12:12 AM

Adam Knowlden

04-12-2003, 12:18 AM

I don't think there is a link for Jones. If there is I don't know about it. As far as I know it's only on cassette tape. But it's awesome!

But nobody can pronounce the OT names like Scourby! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds so cool to hear Darth Vader reading Revelation! "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the Almighty" AWSOME!

[/ QUOTE ]

What about when he says, "Father".LOL

"Luke, I am your father!"

Venom

04-12-2003, 12:22 AM

Here is what I got, Darth Vador! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1886089671/qid=1050115724/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-7068186-8461546?v=glance&s=books)
But I see they came out with a new CD version here. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591502241/qid=1050115724/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-7068186-8461546?v=glance&s=books)

I would check that one out. I might get the new CD version to.

04-12-2003, 12:28 AM

Adam Knowlden

04-12-2003, 12:29 AM

Awesome Venom!

I'm ordering that on CD!

Just 2 sweeeeeeeet!

Venom

04-12-2003, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
CaptainCellulite said:
I found an audio clip here http://www.abeljesus.com/vader.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, I love the intro. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Venom

04-12-2003, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
Awesome Venom!

I'm ordering that on CD!

Just 2 sweeeeeeeet!

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, me to. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

04-12-2003, 12:34 AM

Adam Knowlden

04-12-2003, 12:45 AM

YEAH! It looks like it! Venom gave the link!

I'm ordering one!

Man, that is great.

Adam Knowlden

04-12-2003, 12:58 AM

Some more info about the trinity!

And here's a few other quotes:

As this doctrine is believed on the one hand or challenged on the other, Christian life is found to be affected at its roots and over all its extent. Every doctrine is run up to it; every privilege and duty hangs on it... However a man may begin his career of error, the general issue is that the doctrine of the Trinity, proving an unexpected check or insurmountable obstacle in the carrying out of his opinions, has to be modified or pushed aside; and he comes to be against the Trinity because he has found it was against him.
George Smeaton, The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit (Carlisle, Pa.: The Banner of Truth, 1980), p.5

A person who claims the doctrine of the Trinity is false because the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture is as foolish as someone who claims 3½ inches, or, say, 5¼ centimeters do not exist because his ruler only shows whole numbers. The doctrine of the Trinity is presented in Scripture clearly enough for spiritual people to recognize, and solidly enough for unspiritual people to stumble over.
Anton Hein


Here's some really cool info published by the Institute for Creation Research and Appologetics Press:

 Introduction
It is often alleged that the doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine. While the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, the substance of the doctrine is definitely biblical.

The following outline study presents an overview of the biblical basis of the doctrine of the Trinity. Comments on the texts have been kept to a bare minimum; the emphasis is on the many biblical texts themselves (about 700 references are listed, including references from 26 of the 27 books of the New Testament). [For your convenience, this online Bible opens in a separate window]

An exposition of many of the texts discussed here can be found in the author's book "Why You Should Believe in the Trinity" (Grand Rapids, Baker Book House, 1989. Unfortunately, it is currently out of print, but you may be able to locate a copy through Amazon.com's ''Out-of-print Service.'').

A proper evaluation of the biblical evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity will depend on the faithful application of sound principles of biblical interpretation. Here I will mention just two principles which, if followed, would prevent almost all interpretive errors on this subject.

The first is to interpret the implicit in light of the explicit. That is, texts which explicitely state that such-and-such is true are to govern our understanding of passages which do not address the issue directly. For example, many passages of the Bible state explicitly that God is omniscient, that is, that He knows all things, including the thoughts of men and all future events (1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chron. 28:9, 17; Job 37:16; Psa. 139:1-4; Isa. 41:22-23; 42:9; 44:7; Jer. 17:10a). These texts must govern our understanding of passages which might seem to imply, but which do not assert, that God did not know something (e.g., Gen. 3:9-13; 4:9; 18:9, 20-21).

The other principle is that we interpret logically but not rationalistically. Using the same illustration, if God knows everything ahead of time, then logically He must have known that Adam and Eve would fall into sin. However, to argue that if God knew Adam and Eve would sin then they would not be responsible for their choosing to sin is not "logical," it is rationalistic. It may be difficult to understand how persons could be responsible for their sinfull actions if God knew ahead of time that they would sin, but it is not illogical (not self-contradictory) to say so.

It should be noted that a study of the Trinity should not be undertaken apart from a study of the nature of God.


 I - There Is One God

One God: Explicit Statements
OT: Deut. 4:35; 39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 14; 21-22; 46:9
NT: John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25

None like God (in His essence)
Explicit statements: Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kgs. 8:23; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 25: 44:7; 46:5, 9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18
Being like God a Satanic lie: Gen. 3:5; Isa. 14:14; John 8:44
Fallen man become "like God" only in that he took upon himself to know good and evil, not that he acquired godhood: Gen. 3:22

Only one true God: 2 Chr. 15:3; Jer. 10:10; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:20-21

All other "gods" are therefore false gods (idols), not gods at all: Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Psa. 96:5; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 8:4; 10:19-20

Demons, not gods, are the power behind false worship: Deut. 32:17; Psa. 106:37; 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8

How men are meant to be "like God"
The image of God indicates that man is to represent God and share His moral character, not that man can be metaphysically like God: Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 1 Cor. 11:7; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10
The goals of being like Christ has the following aspects only:
Sharing His moral character: 1 John 3:2; Rom. 8:29
Being raised with glorified, immortal bodies like His: phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:49
Becoming partakers of the divine nature refers again to moral nature ("having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust"), not metaphysical nature: 2 Pet. 1:4; see also Heb. 12:10; on the meaning of "partakers," see 1 Cor. 10:18, 20; 2 Cor. 1:17; 1 Pet. 5:1

Are mighty or exalted men gods?
Scripture never says explicitly that men are gods
Powerful, mighty men are explicitly said not to be gods: Ezek. 28:2, 9; Isa. 31:3; 2 Thess. 2:4
Men and God are opposite, exclusive categories: Num. 23:19; Isa. 31:3; Ezek. 28:2; Hosea 11:9; Matt. 19:26; John 10:33; Acts 12:22; 1 Cor. 14:2
Moses was "as God," not really a god: Ex. 4:16; 7:1
Ezek. 32:21 speaks of warriors or soldiers as "mighty gods," but in context they are so regarded by their pagan nations, not by God or Israel; cf. Ezek. 28:2, 9
The elohim before whom accused stood in Exodus was God Himself, not judges, as many translations incorrectly render: Ex. 22:8-9, 28; compare Deut. 19:17
The use of elohim in Psalm 82, probably in reference to wicked judges, as cited by Jesus in John 10:34-36, does not mean that men really can be gods.
It is Asaph, not the Lord, who calls the judges elohim in Psa. 82:1, 6. This is important, even though we agree that Psa. 82 is inspired.
Asaph's meaning is not "Although you are gods, you will die like men," but rather "I called you gods, but in fact you will all die like the men that you really are"
The Psalmist was no more saying that wicked judges were truly gods than he was saying that they were truly "sons of the Most High" (v. 6b)
Thus, Psa. 82:1 calls the judges elohim in irony. They had quite likely taken their role in judgment (cf. point 5 above) to mean they were elohim, or gods, and Asaph's message is that these so-called gods were mere men who would die under the judgment of the true elohim (vss. 1-2, 7-8)
Christ's use of this passage in John 10:34-36 does not negate the above interpretation of Psalm 82
The words, "The Scripture cannot be broken," means "the Scripture cannot go without having some ultimate fulfillment" (cf. John 7:23; Matt. 5:17). Thus Jesus is saying that what the OT judges were called in irony, He is in reality; He does what they could not do, and is what they could never be (see the Adam-Christ contrasts in Rom. 5:12-21 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22, 45 for a simiar use of OT Scripture)
The clause, "those against whom the word of God came" (John 10:35) shows that this "word" was a word of judgment against the so-called gods; which shows that they were false gods, not really gods at all
Finally, these wicked men were certainly not "godlike" or "divine" by nature, so that in any case the use of elohim to refer to them must be seen as figurative, not literal
Even if men were gods (which they are not), this would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He was God as a preexistent spirit before creation: John 1:1

Are angels Gods?
Scripture never explicitly states that angels are gods
Demonic spirits are not gods, 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8; thus, being "mighty spirits" does not make angels gods
Satan is therefore also a false god: 2 Cor. 4:4
Psalm 8:5 does not teach that angels are gods
Psa. 8:5 is paraphrased in Heb. 2:7, not quoted literally (cf. Psa. 68:18 with Eph. 4:8). In Psa. 8:5, elohim certainly means God, not angels, since Psa. 8:3-8 parallels Gen. 1:1, 8 16, 26-28. Note that the Psalmist is speaking of man's exalted place in creation, whereas Hebrews is speaking of the lower place taken by Christ in becoming a man. Thus, Heb. 2:7 may not mean to equate angels with gods at all.
Even if Heb. 2:7 does imply that angels are "gods," in the context of Hebrews 1-2 these angels would be those falsely exalted above Christ: Note Heb. 1:6 (which quotes Psa. 97:7, which definitely speaks of "gods" in the sense of false gods); and cf. Col. 2:16 on the problem of the worship of angels
Elsewhere in the Psalms angels, if spoken of as gods (or as "sons of the gods"), are considered false gods: Psa. 29:1; 86:8-10; 89:6; 95:3; 96:4-5; 97:7-9 (note that these false gods are called "angels" in the Septuagint); 135:5; 136:2; 138:1; cf. Ex. 15:11; 18:11; Deut. 10:17; 1 Chr. 16:25; 2 Chr. 2:5
Even if the angels were gods (which the above shows they are not), that would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He is not an angelic being, but the Son who is worshipped by the angels as their Creator, Lord, and God: Heb. 1:1-13

Conclusion: If there is only one God, one true God, all other gods being false gods, neither men nor angels being gods, and none even like God by nature - all of which the Bible says repeatedly and explicitly - then we must conclude that there is indeed only one God.


 This One God Is Known In The OT As "Jehovah/Yahweh" ("The Lord")

Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 39; Psa. 100:3; etc.

Texts where the compound name "Jehovah God" (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2:3; 9:26; 24:3; Ex. 3:15-18; 4:4; 2 Sam. 7:22, 25; etc.

Only one Yahweh/Jehovah: Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29

Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only el/elohim

III - God Is A Unique, Incomprehensible Being

Only one God, thus unique: See I.A.

None are even like God: see I.B

God cannot be fully comprehended: 1 Cor. 8:2-3

God can only be known insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18

Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16

God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench
Separate from the world: Isa. 40:22; Acts 17:24
Contrasted with the world: Psa. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17
Created the world: Gen. 1:1; Psa. 33:6; 102:25; Isa. 42:5; 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2; 11:3

IV - Is God One Person?

God is one God (cf. I above), one Yahweh, one Lord (cf. II above), one Spirit (John 4:24)

However, the Bible never says that God is "one person"
Heb. 1:3 KJV speaks of God's "person," but the word used here, hupostasis, is translated "substance" in Heb. 11:1 KJV; also in Heb. 1:3 "God" refers specifically to the Father
Gal. 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person
Job 13:8 KJV speaks of God's "person," but ironically the Hebrew literally means "his faces"

The use of singular and plural pronouns for God
Over 7000 times God speaks or is spoken of with singular pronouns (I, He, etc.); but this is proper because God is a single individual being; thus these singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three "persons" as long as these persons are not separate beings
At least four times God speaks of or to Himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8), and nontrinitarian interpretation cannot account for them
Plural reference to God and the angels possible in Isa. 6:8, but not in the Genesis texts; in 1:26 "our image" explained in 1:27, "in God's image"; in 3:22 "like one of us" refers back to 3:5, "like God"
The "litarary plural" (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to texts in which God is speaking, not writing
The "plural of deliberation" is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and cannot explain Gen. 3:22 ("like one of us")
The "plural of amplitude" or of "fulness" (which probably does explai nthe use of the plural form elohim in the singular sense of "God") is irrelevant to the use of plural pronouns, and again cannot explain Gen. 3:22
The "plural of majesty" possibly attested in 1 Kgs. 12:9; 2 Chron. 10:9; more likely Ezra 4:18; but none of these are certain; and again, it cannot explain Gen. 3:22; also nothing in the context of the Gen. texts suggests that God is being presented as King

The uniqueness of God (cf. III above) should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons

V - The Father Of Jesus Christ Is God

Explicit statements: John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; etc.
The expression, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ": 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3


 Jesus Christ Is God

Explicit statements
Isa. 9:6; note 10:21. Translations which render "mighty hero," are inconsistent in their rendering of 10:21. Also note that Ezek. 32:21 is (a) not in the same context, as is Isa. 10:21, and (b) speaking of false gods, cf. I.G.5 above.
John 1:1 Even if Jesus is here called "a god" (as some have argued), since there is only one God, Jesus is that God. However, the "a god" rendering is incorrect. Other passages using the Greek word for God (theos) in the same construction are always rendered "God": Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38; John 8:54; Phil 2:13; Heb. 11:16. Passages in which a shift occurs from ho theos ("the God") to theos ("God") never imply a shift in meaning: Mark 12:27; Luke 20:37-38; John 3:2; 13:3; Rom. 1:21; 1 Thess. 1:9; heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 4:10-11
John 1:18. The best manuscripts have "the unique God" (monogenes, frequently rendered "only-begotten," actually means "one of a kind," "unique," though in the NT always in the context of a son or daughter). Even if one translates "only-begotten," the idea is not of a "begotten god" as opposed to an "unbegotten god."
John 20:28. Compare Rev. 4:11, where the same construction is used in the plural ("our") instead of the singular ("my"). See also Psa. 35:23. Note that Christ's response indicates that Thomas' acclamation was not wrong. Also note that John 20:17 does show that the Father was Jesus' "God" (due to Jesus becoming a man), but the words "my God" as spoken by Thomas later in the same chapter must mean no less than in v. 17. Thus, what the Father is to Jesus in His humanity, Jesus is to Thomas (and therefore to us as well).
Acts 20:28: "the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." The variant readings (e.g. "the church of the Lord") show that the original was understood to mean "His own blood," not "the blood of His own [Son]" (since otherwise no one would have thought to change it). Thus all other renderings are attempts to evade the startling clarity and meaning of this passage.
Rom. 9:5. While grammatically this is not the only possible interpretation, the consistent form of doxologies in Scripture, as well as the smoothest reading of the text, supports the identification of Christ as "God" in this verse.
Titus 2:13. Grammatically and contextually, this is one of the strongest proof-texts for the deity of Christ. Sharp's first rule, properly understood, proves that the text should be translated "our great God and Savior" (cf. same construction in Luke 20:37; Rev. 1:6; and many other passages). Note also that Paul always uses the word "manifestation" ("appearing") of Christ: 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2. Tim. 1:10; 4:1, 8
Heb. 1:8. The rendering, "God is your throne," is nonsense - God is not a throne, He is the one who sits on the throne! Also, "God is your throne," if taken to mean God is the source of one's rule, could be said about any angelic ruler - but Hebrews 1 is arguing that Jesus is superior to the angels.
2 Pet. 1:1. The same construction is used here as in Titus 2:13; see the parallel passage in 2 Pet. 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18
1 John 5:20. Note that the most obvious antecedent for "this" is Jesus Christ. Also note that the "eternal life" is Christ, as can be seen from 1:2.

Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh
Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of 10:13 must be the "Lord" of 10:9, 12
Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (vs. 11), i.e., Jehovah
Heb. 1:10: Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation from Psa. 102:25 (cf. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense
1 Pet. 2:34: This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8a, where "Lord" is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in v. 3 is Jesus
1 Pet. 3:14-15: these verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah
Texts where Jesus is spoken of as the "one Lord" (cf. Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Roma. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5

Jesus has the titles of God
Titles belonging only to God
The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6
King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16
Titles belong in the ultimate sense only to God
Savior: Luke 2:11; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Titus 2:13, cf. v. 10; etc.; cf. Isa. 43.11; 45:21-22; 1 Tim 4:10; on Jesus becoming the source of salvation; Heb. 5:9, cf. Ex. 15:2; Psa. 118:14, 21
Shepherd: John 10:11; Heb. 13:20; cf. Psa. 23:1; Isa. 40:11
Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Isa. 44:8

Jesus received the honors due to God alone
Honor: John 5:23
Love: Matt. 10:37
Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 46); Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 12:8-10 (where "the Lord" must be Jesus, cf. v. 9), etc.
Worship (proskuneo): Matt. 28:17; Heb. 1:6 (cf. Psa. 97:7); cf. Matt 4:10
Religious or sacred service (latreuo): Rev. 22:13
Faith: John 3:16; 14:1; etc.

Jesus does the works of God
Creation: John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14 (cf. 21:6 on "beginning"); on "through" and "in" cf. Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Acts 17:28; cf. also Isa. 44:24
Sustains the universe: Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3
Salvation:
In General: See C.2.a above
Forgives sins: Matt. 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26; note that Jesus forgives sins not committed against Him.
All of them: John 5:17-29 (including judgment, cf. Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:10)

Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God
All of them: John 1:1; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3
Self-existent: John 5:26
Unchangeable: heb. 1:10-12; 13:8
Eternal: John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2
Omnipresent: Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10' Col. 3:11
Omniscient: John 16:30; 21:17; cf. 2:23-24
Incomprehensible: Matt. 11:25-27

Jesus is "equal with God"
John 5:18: Although John is relating what the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming, the context shows they were basically right: In v. 17 claimed to be exempt from the Sabbath along with His Fahter, and in 5:19-29 Jesus claimed to do all of the world of the Father and to deserve the same honor as the Father
Phil. 2:6: Jesus did not attempt to seize recognition by the world as being equal with God, but attained that recognition by humbling himself and being exalted by the Father (vv. 7-11)

Jesus is the Son of God
"Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1
Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father
Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e.. He was not physically procreated by God
On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else)
Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above)
Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistenly understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65
Jesus is therefore God's Son, not God's creation, God's servant, God's agent, etc.; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.)

Objections
Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp 8:12-21; 9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did anything - i.e., that God has always had wisdom
Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf. vv. 12-44); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48;14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that v. 16 speaks of the Son as the Creator, nor creature (cf. E.1. above)
Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (arche) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e. Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the arche in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plural archai "rulers" in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15, also Luke 12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21
1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28: Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to God
John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples)
Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus, as God, did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not including Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7)
Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God
Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19
John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g. 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9
1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g. Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22
1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here "God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. v. 5; cf. also Rom. 14:3-12 for a good example of "God" and "Lord" as interchangeable); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only Lord
1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God
Deut. 4:12, 15-25; God not appear in a human form to Israel, lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry
In many texts Jesus is distinguised from God: He is the Son of God, was sent by God, etc.; in all these texts "God" is used as a name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father


 The Holy Spirit Is God

Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Has the incommunicable attributes of God
Eternal: heb. 9:14
Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

Involved in all the works of God
Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 20; Luke 1:35
Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27

Is a person
Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person
Is the "Helper"
Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (parakletos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons
Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26
Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27
Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14
Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-230, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6
Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11: 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13,22
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
"Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language used of other persons
The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 19; 14:10 

 The Father, Son, And Holy Spirit Are Distinct Persons

Matt. 28:19
"the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit": use of definite article before each personal noun indicates distinct persons unless explicitly stated otherwise; compare Rev. 1:17; 2:8, 26
The views that "Father" and "Son" are distinct persons but not the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is not a person at all, or that all three are different offices or roles of one person, are impossible in view of the grammar (together with the fact that in Scripture a "spirit" is a person unless context shows otherwise).
Does singular "name" prove that the three are one person? No; cf. Gen. 5:2; 11:14; 48:6; and esp. 48:16
"Name" need not be personal name, may be title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. If a single personal name is sought, the name shared by all three persons is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah."

Acts 2:38 and Matt. 28:19
Neither passage specifies that certain words are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of...."
Those said to be baptized in the name of Jesus (whether or not the formula "in the name of Jesus" was used) were people already familiar with the God of the OT:
Jews: Acts 2:5, 38; 22:16
Samaritans: Acts 8:5, 12, 16
God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 10:1-2, 22, 48
Disciples of John the Baptist: Acts 19:1-5
The first Christians in Corinth were Jews and God-fearing Gentiles: Acts 18:1-8; 1 Cor. 1:13
Trinitarian formula for baptism (if that is what Matt. 28:19 is) was given in context of commissioning apostles to take the gospel to "all the nations," including people who did not know of the biblical God

God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ are two persons
The salutations: Rom. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; Eph. 1:2; 6:23; Phil. 1:2; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1, 2; 1 Tim. 1:1, 2; 2 Tim. 1:2; Tit. 1:4; Phm. 3; James 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:2; 2 John 3
Two witnesses: John 5:31-32; 8:16-18; cf. Num. 35:30; Deut. 17:6; 19:15
The Father sent the Son: John 3:16-17; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:10; etc.; cf. John 1:6; 17:18; 20:21
The Father and the Son love each other: John 3:35; 5:20; 14:31; 15:9; 17-23-26; cf. Matt. 3:17 par.; 17:5 par.; 2 Pet. 1:17
The Father speaks to the Son, and the Son speaks to the Father: John 11:41-42; 12:28; 17:1-26; etc.
The Father knows the Son, and the Son knows the Father: Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 7:29; 8:55; 10:15
Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1

Jesus is not God the Father
Isa. 9:6: "Father of eternity" means eternal; compare other names formed with word "father": Abialbon, "father of strength" = strong (2 Sam. 23:31); Abiasaph, "father of gathering" = gatherer (Ex. 6:24); Abigail, a woman's name(!), "father of exultation" = exulting (1 Chron. 2:16)
John 10:30
Jesus did not say, "I am the Father," nor did He say, "the Son and the Father are one person."
The first person plural esmen ("we are") implies two persons
The neuter word for "one" (hen) is used, implying essential unity but not personal unity (compare John 17:21-23).
John 5:43: Jesus' coming in His Father's name means not that He was the Father because He had the Father's name, but that, while others come in their own name (or their own authority), Jesus does not; He comes in His Father's name (on His Father's authority)
John 8:19; 16:3: Ignorance of Jesus is indeed ignorance of the Father, but that does not prove that Jesus is the one He calls "My Father"
John 14:6-11
Jesus and the Father are one being, not one person
Jesus said, "I am in the Father," not "I am the Father"
The statement, "the Father is in Me," does not mean Jesus is the Father; compare John 14:20; 17:21-23
John 14:18: An older adult brother can care for his younger siblings, thus preventing them from being "orphans," without being their father
Colossians 2:9: Does not mean that Jesus is the Father, or that Jesus is an incarnation of the Father; rather, since "Godhead" (theotes) means Deity, the state of being God, the nature of God, Jesus is fully God, but not the only person who is God. "The Godhead" here does not = the Father (note that Jesus is in the Father, John 10:38; 14:10, 11; 17:21), but the nature of the Father.
The Father and the Son are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (Gal. 1:1; John 2:19-22), raising the dead (John 5:21); 6:39-40, 44, 54, 1 Cor. 6:14), answering prayer (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23), sending the Holy Spirit (John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7), drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44; 12:32), etc. These common works do prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Father

The Son existed before His Incarnation, even before creation
Prov. 30:4: This is not predictive prophecy; "prophecy" in 30:1 translates massa, which is rendered elsewhere as "burden."
The Son created all things: See VI.E.1
Jesus was "with" (pros or para) God the Father before creation: John 1:1; 17:5; pros in John 1:1 does not mean "pertaining to," although is does in Hebrews 2:17; 5:1 (which use pros with ta).
Jesus, the Son of God, existed before John the Baptist (who was born before Jesus): john 1:15, cf. 1:14-18, 29-34
Jesus, the Son, came down from heaven, sent from the Father, and went back to heaven, back to the Father: John 3:13, 31; 6:33; 38, 41, 46, 51, 56-58, 62; 8:23, 42; 13:3; 16:27-28; cf. Acts 1:10-11; cf. the sending of the Holy Spirit, John 16:5-7; 1 Pet. 1:12
Jesus, speaking as the Son (John 8:54-56), asserts His eternal preexistence before Abraham: john 8:58
The Son explicitly said to exist "before all things": Col. 1:17, cf. 1:12-20
These statements cannot be dismissed as true only in God's foreknowledge
We are all in God's min before creation; yet such passages as John 1:1 and John 17:5 clearly mean to say something unusual about Christ.
To say that all things were created through Christ means that He must have existed at creation.
No one else in Scripture is ever said to have been with God before creation.
Texts which speak of the Son being begotten "today" do not mean He became the Son on a certain day, since they refer to His exaltation at the resurrection (Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:3-5; 5:5; cf. Psa. 2:7; cf. also Rom. 1:4)

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1 John 2:1
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7
The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14)
The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as tow persons in Matt. 28:19
The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22
Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16, citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the New English Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10
1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is designated "the Holy Spirit."
Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede for us is consistent with the fact that we have two Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1)
John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances to the disciples after the resurrection (compare 14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22); Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40, 44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John 14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works prove that the two persons are both God, but not that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

The Father is not the Holy Spirit
The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26
The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27
The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in Matt. 28:19
Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is not a product of physical union between a man and a woman!
The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus (Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor. 1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.


 Conclusion: The Bible teaches the Trinity

All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture
One God
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (i.e., they are not each other, nor are they impersonal; they relate to one another personally)
The New Testament presents a consistent triad of Father, Son, Holy Spirit (God, Christ, Spirit): matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:34; also Luke 1:35; 3:21-22 par.; 4:1-12; John 4:10-25; 7:37-39; 14-16; 20:21-22; Acts 1:4-8; 2:33, 38-39; 5:3-4, 9, 30-32; 7:55-56; 10:36-38, 44-48; 11:15-18; 15:8-11; 20:38; 28:25-31; Rom. 1:1-4; 5:5-10; 8:2-4, 9-11, 14-17; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:4-6, 11-12, 18; 2 Cor. 1:19-22; 3:6-8, 14-18; Gal. 3:8-14; 4:4-7; Eph. 1:3-17; 2:18, 21-22; 3:14-19; 4:4-6, 29-32; 5:18-20; Phil. 3:3; 1 Thess. 1:3-6; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; Tit. 3:4-6; Heb. 2:3-4; 9:14; 10:28-31; 1 Pet. 1:2; 1 John 3:21-24; 4:13-14; Jude 20-21; Rev. 2:18, 27-29
Therefore, the Bible does teach the Trinity

X - What Difference Does The Doctrine Of The Trinity Make?

Sovereignty: Because the three persons have each other, we can be assured that God created us only to share the love they have and not as a means to His own end: Acts 17:25; John 17:21-26
Mystery: The trinune God is totally unlike anything in our world, and therefore greater than anything we can comprehend: Rom. 11:33-36; Isa. 40:18
Salvation: God alone planned our salvation, came to save us, and dwells in us to complete our salvation: 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:3-18; etc.
Prayer: We pray to the Father through the Son, and also pray to the Son directly, in the Spirit: John 14:13-14; Eph. 2:18; etc.
Worship: We worship Father and Son in the Spirit: john 4:23-24; Phil. 3:3; Heb. 1:8; etc.
Love: The love among the three persons is the basis and model for our love for one another: John 17:26
Unity: The unity of the three persons is the basis and model for the unity of the church: John 17:21-23
Humility: As the persons of the Trinity seek the glory of each other, so we should seek the interests of others above our own: Phil. 2:5-11; John 16:13-14
Sonship: We are "sons of God" as we are united with the Son of God by the work of the Holy Spirit and the adoption of the Father: john 1:12-23; Rom. 8:14-17
Truth: All those wo wish to worship and love God must seek to know Him as He is in truth, for God, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is truth: John 4:24; 14:6, 17; 15:26; 16:13

Venom

04-12-2003, 03:25 AM

Thanks O.S! Great stuff. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

04-12-2003, 03:37 AM

http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/laugh.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/laugh.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/laugh.gif You guys are too funny! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/biggthumpup.gif

04-12-2003, 03:46 AM

Geez Adam! How long does it take you to type all that?!! WOW. /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I could sure use your skills when I go to visit my dad, brother, and step mom on the 23rd! I did save a lot of the info you and Jacob posted from those Evolution vs Creation threads. I'm planning on printing it out and giving it to my brother to read. I may not be able to debate with him, but you and Jacob CAN!!! Still would be better tho if I could just beam you two over to McClure, PA. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Adam Knowlden

04-12-2003, 07:08 PM

It's not mine, it's from ICR. I thought it would fit in good. I'm going to add more over a few days! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

04-12-2003, 11:28 PM

Venom

04-14-2003, 05:10 AM

Yeah, that's a good program Captain. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Venom

04-14-2003, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:
I'm going to add more over a few days! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Can't wait bro. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

LivingSacrifice

04-17-2003, 09:50 PM

Geneva Bible (1599)

Luk 4:8 But Iesus answered him, and saide, Hence from mee, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him alone thou shalt serue.
Luk 4:9 Then hee brought him to Hierusalem, and set him on a pinacle of the Temple, and said vnto him, If thou be the Sonne of God, cast thy selfe downe from hence,
Luk 4:10 For it is written, That hee will giue his Angels charge ouer thee to keepe thee:
Luk 4:11 And with their handes they shall lift thee vp, least at any time thou shouldest dash thy foote against a stone.
Luk 4:12 And Iesus answered, and said vnto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Luk 4:13 And when the deuil had ended all the tentation, he departed from him for a litle season.

God's Word, a comtemporary translation, below

Luk 4:9 Then the devil took him into Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest part of the temple. He said to Jesus, "If you are the Son of God, jump from here!
Luk 4:10 Scripture says, 'He will put his angels in charge of you to watch over you carefully.
Luk 4:11 They will carry you in their hands so that you never hit your foot against a rock.'"
Luk 4:12 Jesus answered him, "It has been said, 'Never tempt the Lord your God.'"
Luk 4:13 After the devil had finished tempting Jesus in every possible way, the devil left him until another time.

In the tempation, Jesus responds with the bolded text above When we are temped, we cannot respond with bolded text above Humans are not God. Since Jesus was God incarnate (in the flesh), He said, "Never tempt the Lord, your God."

RichW

04-17-2003, 09:58 PM

I have a different take on that. That could also go to say that we are not to test GOD. For instance jumping in front of a speeding train and saying "ok God if you're really there save me!" We are not to test God in that manner.
Just my take on the verse.

LivingSacrifice

04-17-2003, 11:14 PM

Both can be true at the same time, too. I can see, we both are right! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Venom

04-18-2003, 01:49 AM

Also, this was a direct commandment to us which Christ was quoting:

Deuteronomy 6:16
16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

And the Holy Ghost also talks about this later:

Hebrews 3:7-19
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

But you're right, we shouldn't claim deity. That's only given to God. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden

04-18-2003, 02:02 AM

Good point Living Sacrifice and Rich.

Both will work in this case.

Good stuff. I have more to add later.

LivingSacrifice

04-18-2003, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good stuff. I have more to add later.

[/ QUOTE ]

looking forward to it.
/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Adam Knowlden

04-19-2003, 01:10 AM

Here's an awesome article! It shows the logic behind the trinity concept! Enjoy!

Oh, I also recieved James Earl Jones on CD!!!!!

It's money! Totally incredible. His voice is very clear and crisp.

PART I: THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, GOD, AND THE DEITY OF THE FATHER

I. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is part of every major creed in the history of Christendom. It can be defined in the following way: In the nature of the one God there are three centers of consciousness, which we call persons, and these three are equal. Though the term "trinity" is not found in the Bible, the doctrine is nevertheless taught there. "Trinity " is merely the term employed by theologians and church historians in order to describe the phenomena of God they find in the Bible.

The doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at in much the same way as a scientific theory. A scientific theory, for the most part, is a reasoned explanation of observed (or unobserved, in some cases) phenomena in the natural world. Analogously, the doctrine of the Trinity is a reasoned explanation of what we observe to be the phenomena of God in the Bible. Church fathers, councils, denominations, etc. have been so overwhelmed with the evidence for the trinity in the scripture that there has been a universal creedal acknowledgement in church history. The argument behind the doctrine can be put this way:

Premise 1: The Bible teaches that there is only one God.

Premise 2: The Bible teaches that there are three distinct persons
called God, known as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Conclusion: So, the three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -
are the one God.

Let us take a look at how each premise is justified in the New Testament.

II. THE PREMISES

A. Premise #1: There is only one God

This premise is almost universally accepted by those who claim to be Christians. For this reason, it should suffice to simply cite I Timothy 2:5, which reads: "For there is only one God, and there is only mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus...."

B. Premise #2: There are Three Persons called God.

1. The Father is called God.
That there is a person named the Father, who is called God, is acknowledged by a host of Biblical passages, such as I Cor. 1:3, which reads: "May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ send you grace and peace." (see also, Rom 1:7; I Pet 1:17). Because virtually no pseudo-Christian cultist disputes this point, the above citation should suffice.
PART II: THE DEITY OF THE SON

2. The Deity of the Son.
The Bible also asserts that Jesus of Nazareth is God. That is, the Son is God as well as the Father. In John 8:56-59 Jesus calls Himself "I am," equating himself with Jehovah God of the Old Testament (Ex. 3:14). Christ's participation in the creation of the cosmos necessitates that He is God (John 1:3 and Collosians 1:16 cf. Isaiah 44:24).
These three passages, when carefully compared and with one another, clearly affirm the deity of Christ. The last passage, Isaiah 44:34, states that Jehovah *alone* made all things. The first and second passages both affirm that all things were made through Christ. Therefore, if Jehovah *alone* made all things, and all things were made through Christ, it logically follows that Christ is in fact Jehovah God. The text of Scripture, and the force of logic, leaves us with no other option.

The Apostle John calls both God and Jesus *the First and the Last* and *the Alpha and the Omega* (Rev. 1:18,17;22:13), and hence equates Jesus with God. Other passages of the New Testament which implicitly or explicitly affirm Christ's deity include Mark 2:5-7, John 20:28-29, John 1:1-14, and Collosians 2:9.

In reply to many of these passages, those who accept the authority of Scripture and yet deny the deity of Christ, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Way International, cite passages in the Bible which apparently conflict with Christ's deity, e.g., those which seem to say that Jesus does not possess the attributes of God (e.g., Luke 18:18,19; John 14:28; I Cor. 11:3, 15:28; Collosians 1:15).

The use of these passages rests on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ's incarnation. When God became man in Christ Jesus God the Son did not "give up" his divine attributes, but simply took on a human nature and denied his human mind access to his divine mind. Consequently, when he said he did not know something he was speaking truly since in the incarnation he willingly gave up access to omniscience, though he remained omniscient, since God cannot give up any of his attributes and still remain God. Therefore, when Jesus said "the Father is Greater than I" (John 14:28), he was referring to his current incarnate position in relation to the first person of the Trinity. This also counts against Oneness, because to say that the "Father" is greater than "I" is to imply two different persons. If they were the same person, one could not be greater than the other; they would be equal. The incarnation, since it involves the Son taking on human nature and thus becoming positionally inferior to the Father, explains how the Father can be greater than the Son and yet the Father and Son share the same nature of deity. The Oneness view can't do that, and the JW view cannot explain the deity-affirming passages. It seems that the traditional view does the trick rather nicely. That is why the church fathers, the church councils, and the three major branches of Christendom have seen the doctrine of the Trinity and the Son's Deity as a natural result of a plain reading of the Biblical text.

PART III: THE DEITY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

3. The Deity of the Holy Spirit
The deity of the Holy Spirit has been questioned by many cultic groups. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses state that the term "Holy Spirit" merely refers to the "invisible active force of the Almighty God that moves his servants to do his will" ("Let God Be True," rev. [1952], 89). In other words, the Holy Spirit is not only not deity, he is also *not a person*; it is an impersonal force which God actively employs. That is, for the JW's, the "Holy Spirit" is to God what the left-hook is to fictional Rocky Balboa: an impersonal "it" directed by a personal being.
This being the case, it is necessary that we first show that the Bible teaches the personhood of the Holy Spirit. A sufficient condition for being a person is that he-she be a "self-conscious or rational being" (*Random House Dictionary*, 1075). Self-consciousness entails attributes such as knowing, thinking, and communicating. The following passages clearly show that the Holy Spirit is considered a person in Holy Scripture:

And when he comes [the Holy Spirit], he [the personal pronoun] will show the world how wrong it was about judgment [communication].... But when theh Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since heh will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learned [knowing and thinking]; and he will tell you of the things to come [communicating]." (John 16:8,13)
One day while they were offering worship to the Lord and keeping a fast, the Holy Spirit said [communicating], "I [first personal pronoun] want Barnabas and Saul set apart for the work which I have calle them." (Acts 13:2)

In both these passages the Holy Spirit is described as acting in very way a self-conscious person acts: He communicates, thinks, knows, and is described in personal pronouns (i.e., "he" and "I").

Furthermore, there are several other passages that portray the Holy Spirit as exhibiting attributes that are exclusive of personhood. For example, the Holy Spirit is described as consoling (Acts 9:31), helping us in our weakness (Rom 8:26), forbidding (Acts 16:6,7), and able to be lied to (Acts 5:3). Moreover, the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph. 4:30) and insulted (Heb. 10:29), and is said to possess a will (I Cor. 12:11).

The Bible also plainly teaches the *deity* of the Holy Spirit by attributing to him characteristics that are possessed only by God. For example, the Spirit is described as *Eternal*, having no beginning and no end (Heb 9:14). Moreover, he described as *Omniscient* (I Cor. 2:10,11), *Sovereign* (I Cor. 12:6,11), and *possessing the wrath of God* (Heb. 3:7-12). In addition, Jesus tells us that to sin against the Holy Spirit is to commit an *eternal* sin (Matt. 12:31,32).

In Acts 5:3-5, the Holy Spirit is clearly called God:

"Ananias," Peter said, "how can Satan have so possessed you *that you should lie to the Holy Spirit* and keep back part of the money from the Lord? While you still owned the land, wasn't it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn't the money yours to do with it as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind. *It is not to men that you have lied, but to God*." (emphasis mine)
Peter is equating a lie to the Holy Spirit with lying to God. In other words, to lie to the Holy Spirit *is* to lie to God. And since one cannot lie to a force or to a non-personal object, this passage also teaches the personality of the Holy Spirit as well as his deity.

PART IV: THE THREE PERSONS ARE THE ONE GOD

C. Conclusion: The Three Persons are the one God.

Let us review our argument for the Trinity. First, we showed that the Bible teaches that there is only one God. Second, we found that the Bible tells us that there are three persons who are called God. Hence, the inescapable conclusion: the three persons are the One God. Theologians have called this the Trinity.

To further buttress this argument, there are several places in the Bible in which the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly implied. For example, concerning *Christ's Resurrection* we are told that the Father raised Jesus from the dead (I Thess. 1:10), the Son raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19-22), and the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 8:11). Yet, we are told in Acts 17:30,31 that *God raised Jesus from the dead*. Therefore, either the Bible contradicts itself or the three persons are the one God.

In *Christ's Great Commission* to preach the Gospel, he instructs his disciples to "go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations; baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matt 28:19). It is important to note that the Greek word "name," used in this verse, is singular (homonos). It does *not* say, "in the *names* of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," but rather, it says, "in the *name*...." In other words, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three distinct *persons*, have only one name. This clearly implies the Triune nature of God. Furthermore, the Trinity is revealed at *Christ's incarnation* (Luke 1:35) and *baptism* (Matt 3:16,17), in the *Apostolic benediction* (II Cor 13:13), and in *Christ's own teachings* (John 14:26; 15:26).

PART V: ONENESS OBJECTIONS

III. ONENESS OBJECTIONS

In the first four parts of this series we concluded that (1) the Bible teaches that there is only one God by nature, and (2) the Bible teaches that there are three persons who are God. From those two premises we drew the inference that the three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - are the one God. We also concluded that the three are distinct persons, not simply three different functions of one person.

But according to the "Jesus Only" sect (a.k.a "Oneness Pentecostalism,"), the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not distinct persons who share the same nature and being, but rather, they are the same person. Each title--"Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit"--represents a different mode by which God, a single person, manifests Himself, just as "uncle," "husband," and "brother" each represents a different mode by which Frank Beckwith (FB), a single human person, manifests himself. This is why the ancient heresy which Oneness embraces is called "modalism."

Consequently, anything true of Frank Beckwith uncle (FBu) must be true of Frank Beckwith husband (FBh) and Frank Beckwith brother (FBb). That is to say, it can *not* be the case that FBu is married to Frankie Rozelle Dickerson Beckwith (yes, my wife's name is Frankie) while FBh is not. It can *not* be the case that FBh hit 9 3-pt. jumpshots in a city league basketball game in February 1993 while FBb did not. What is true of FBu, as a person, must be true of FBh and FBb if they are all the same person. Certainly it is true that the relationships that make u, h, and b distinct are different, but the *person* to which these titles apply must possess all the same properties regardless of in what role he is functioning (that is, whether brother, husband, or uncle). That is, everything that is true of the Frank Beckwith who is the uncle of Dean James Beckwith and Dylan Patrick Beckwith is true of the Frank Beckwith who is married to Frankie R.D. Beckwith and who is the brother of Dr. James Beckwith and Patrick Beckwith.

Thus, in order for modalism (or "Oneness") to be correct there *must be nothing true of one "mode" which is not true of another "mode"*. But if there is just one thing true of one which is not true of another, then *they cannot be the same person* and modalism is false.

Understand the monumental task of the Oneness apologist: he must overturn our common sense intuition that when the Bible speaks of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the Bible is in fact speaking of three persons rather than one. That is to say, on the face of it, it would appear that a plain reading of the text clearly presents three distinct persons, since we have numerous verses that indicate communication and relationship between persons, such as when Jesus prayed to his Father and the Holy Spirit descended upon him. In other words, since the common sense plain reading of the text indicates three distinct persons, the burden of proof is without a doubt on the Oneness person to show the common sense plain reading is false. The Trinitarian does not have the burden of proof.

Consider the following:

(1) Jesus of Nazareth is called the one and only mediator between God and man (I Tim 2:5; Heb 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). This would mean that God the Son has a property - mediatorship - which is possessed by neither God the Father nor God the Holy Spirit, since the text is saying he is the ONLY mediator *between* humanity and the Godhead.

(2) "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, `This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'" (Matt. 3:16-17). The Son has the property of "being the Son loved by the Father" but not the property of "being the Father who loves the Son." The Spirit has neither property. Thus, we have in this verse a clear distinction between the persons of the Trinity.

(3) "`No one knows, however, when that day and hour will come - neither the angels in heaven nor the Son; the Father alone knows.'" (Matt. 24:36). Here the Son has a property (not knowing the day or hour of his second coming) which the Father does not. Imagine if I said, "Only Frank Beckwith as an uncle knows what he's getting from his wife for Christmas. Frank Beckwith as a brother does not know what he's getting from his wife for Christmas." You would have to infer from this that there must two Frank Beckwiths. If not, then it is logically incoherent.

(4) "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matt. 28:19). In the Greek, tou ("the") is used for each title, and each is separated by kai ("and"). This helps support the view that in this text three distinct individual persons are being spoken of:

...in the name of *the* (tou) Father *and the* (kai tou) Son, *and the* (kai tou) Holy Spirit.
If the Greek text had been referring to only one person, it would have most likely read:
...in the name of *the* Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
or,
...in the name of *the* Father, *the* Son, and *the* Holy Spirit.
I don't want to make too much of grammatical constructions, but it seems that because of the use of both the article and its own conjunction, it is highly unlikely that the author was talking about only one person (on this, see Bruce Tucker, TWISTING THE TRUTH: RECOGNIZING HOW CULT GROUPS SUBTLY DISTORT BASIC CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES (Bethany House, 1987)).
If two things have every property in common, then they are one thing (e.g., Norma Jean Baker and Marilyn Monroe, Casius Clay and Muhammed Ali). But if there is *only one property that is not the same*, then they are separate persons. This is called the indiscernibility of identicals (II), or in symbolic form:

(x) (y) [(y=x)-->(P)(Px<-->Py)]

That is, for any entities x and y, if x and y are the same thing, then any property P, P is true of x if and only if P is true of y. If x is the Son and y is the Father, then if Oneness is true, x must be identical to y. On the other hand, if something is true of the Son which is not true of the Father, then the Son is not identical to the Father and Oneness if false. II is a principle of sound reasoning which is the basis for all thought. But we have seen that there are things true of the Son which are not true of the Father and there are things true of the Spirit which are not true of either the Father or the Son.

Suppose the Oneness person denies the applicability of logic to God. But, of course, he can't, because this very claim *presupposes* logic. That is, the Oneness apologist is saying "It cannot be the case that we can apply logic to God," which means that God cannot both be "a being to which logic applies" and "a being to which logic does not apply." So the Oneness person assumes the most fundamental principle of logic--the law of non-contradiction--in his denial of logic. Also, Oneness itself as a theory of the Godhead presupposes a number of logical virtues which its proponnents think it exemplifies in comparison to Trinitarianism: coherency, simplicity, consistency with the biblical text, etc.

Of course, much more can be said critiquing the Oneness view of God. There are many verses Oneness apologists use in order to prove their case. I simply do not have the time to go over them. My purpose was to present a positive case for the traditional doctrine of the Trinity and why church history has supported this doctrine. Scholarly responses to oneness can be found in Gregory Boyd's ONENESS PENTECOSTALISM AND THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY (Baker Books, 1992) and E. Calvin Beisner's forthcoming book "JESUS ONLY" AND ONENESS PENTECOSTALISM (Zondervan, 1995), published as part of Zondervan's series of small books on cults.

I hope that this series has been helpful to you.

Francis J. Beckwith, Ph.D., Dept. of Philosophy, Univ. of Nevada, Las Vegas School of Apologetics, Simon Greenleaf University (Anaheim, CA)

04-19-2003, 05:35 AM

Post deleted by OldSchool

President Wilson

04-19-2003, 05:52 AM

Kinetecade, I would suggest doing further studies in the bible. There is no contradiction at all, only that you are not understanding the Holy Trinity. There is only one God.

[ QUOTE ]
"And God said, let us make man in our image."

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you will not understand this concept, unless you understand that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one. And, this not only takes years of study, as in reading God's work continually, but also having his Holy Spirit to guide you through the process.

What you are essentially saying in your last post is that.
" I don't understand the Eternal God Head" if you do not, then you will not understand any of the scriptures you listed. For example you stated this:

[ QUOTE ]
On the cross, when Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34), to whom was he speaking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Himself. God seeks his own councel. The creator is far beyond his creation. An extremely recognized Biologist Michael Denton has this to say about the Cell

 Perhaps in no other area of modern biology is the challenge posed by the extreme
complexity and ingenuity of biological adaptations more apparent than in the fascinating new molecular world of the cell. To grasp the reality of life as it has been
revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would
see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity.

Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which &#8212; a functional protein or gene is complex beyond our own creative capacities, a reality which is the very antithesis of chance, which excels in every sense anything produced by the intelligence of man? Alongside the level of ingenuity and complexity exhibited by the molecular machinery of life, even our most advanced [twentieth century technology appears] clumsy. . . . It would be an illusion to think that what we are aware of at present is any more than a fraction of the full extent of biological design. In practically every field of fundamental biological research ever-increasing levels of design and complexity are being revealed at an ever-accelerating rate.


If one cell is complex, and is beyond Mankinds understanding, indeed far, far, far beyond. It is certainly no easy task to understand The Eternal God head itself who created you, and that cell.

My suggestion is to study it further, re read what Old School and others have posted to further your understanding. And to realize that the Holy Trinity itself is extremely complex, to also realize that God confers with himself, and seeks his own councel, and to understand that he is as far above us, as the heavens are from the earth.

President Wilson

04-19-2003, 05:58 AM

In fact, each of your questions stems from your misunderstanding completely of the scriptures themselves.
I could easily, and I mean easily answer each one of the out of context representations. And, if you are seeking a relationship with Jesus with all your heart, mind and soul, let me know, and I will gladly do so.

Venom

04-19-2003, 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for reading, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Sincerely, Cade

[/ QUOTE ]

No you don't kinetekade. You didn't post this to get an answer, or learn; you posted this to mock. And selfishly waste others time. Let me re quote what I said:

[ QUOTE ]

Definitely not for only Christians. But as seksi stated, if you're going to mock than no. If you want to learn, or have questions feel free.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its evident you don't what to know about the bible, or our beliefs. You want to tear them down. Not learn.

All the questions you asked can be answered in one second. you want answers than read the 50 page post I put, and Old schools.

But my real suggestion is to start listening.

Venom

04-19-2003, 06:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, each of your questions stems from your misunderstanding completely of the scriptures themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt I could even make up those contradictions. And I stress, "make up" because that would have to be my approach.

04-19-2003, 06:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is no contradiction at all, only that you are not understanding the Holy Trinity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that you'll deny the occurences of literal contradictions in the Bible. I feel that your "lack of contradictions" argument rests in the figurative interpretations... correct?

[ QUOTE ]
My suggestion is to study it further, re read what Old School and others have posted to further your understanding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'll go back and re-read tomorrow...

[ QUOTE ]
No you don't kinetekade. You didn't post this to get an answer, or learn; you posted this to mock. And selfishly waste others time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Might I suggest that your feelings of resentment are the result of a terrible grudge, which is now affecting your perception of my intentions... Must everything be a personal attack? I have no quarrel with you; can't our struggle for a better understanding be mutual? I'm sorry you feel this way, and I can only assure you that I did not post to mock or waste anybody's time.

[ QUOTE ]
You want to tear them down. Not learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're ignoring the fact that much of humanity's discovery has resulted from "tearing down" past dogmatic beliefs. And you're poisoning the well with the phrase "tear them down," since "examine" or "assess" are more appropriate terms to describe my intentions.

[ QUOTE ]
But my real suggestion is to start listening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Elaborate, please.

Again, thank you for reading, and I look forward to your responses.

Venom

04-19-2003, 07:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Might I suggest that your feelings of resentment are the result of a terrible grudge, which is now affecting your perception of my intentions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Grudges are for 2 year olds; no I am not holding a grudge. In addition, 99% of the posts I have made to you are either complements, or advice on training. If anything you should be saying that I have a bias for your well fare. How you can claim my actions show resent to you is a complete joke.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're ignoring the fact that much of humanity's discovery has resulted from "tearing down" past dogmatic beliefs. And you're poisoning the well with the phrase "tear them down," since "examine" or "assess" are more appropriate terms to describe my intentions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so, you may be assessing what we say. But to what end? Not to learn, or gain a better understanding of Christ. Overall your goal is to show the bible and our belief is false. Not learn or gain knowledge from us. You have no intent to turn to Christ, or his word.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry you feel this way, and I can only assure you that I did not post to mock or waste anybody's time.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I say waste time I mean you aren't looking for us to answer your question. You're looking to tear down our belief. Again, not to learn from us but disprove. So if we answered all your questions, with your approach that would be a waste of time. Because you will not change your stance either way.

Quote:

But my real suggestion is to start listening.

Elaborate, please.

Very simple, change your approach. It's very clear you are not trying to learn here but debate and in effect mock with clearly sarcastic questions.

Ask a question like you would in a training forum. Don't make sarcastic statements that clearly show your biased and unwillingness to learn. For example here is how to ask a question:

Hey guys, I don't understand this verse, can you explain it- 1 Peter 3:22 "Who has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God..."

Now here is how you ask a question:

"As I see it, the Trinity is more of an "escape mechanism," used to explain contradictions and confusing Bible verses."

Man you are so sincere! I just want to spend the next hour answering you because I know your "open minded" and really want to learn. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Clearly you came to mock and ask sarcastic questions searching for flaws instead of answers.
If you want to learn how to learn you should watch Heen. He doesn't believe what we do but asks fantastic questions and is never rude, sarcastic, or mocking as your questions always turn out. He actually wants to learn, not mock.

President Wilson

04-19-2003, 07:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that you'll deny the occurences of literal contradictions in the Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is called a lawyer question, and I answered exactly what the fact of the situation was above, and when the simple questions you asked would be addressed. I read at least a book of God's word daily, I believe I know exactly what I stated in regards to it, and you know exactly my position on the subject without a Lawyer question. This post is about understanding more perfectly the Eternal God head.

Not about, extremely weak arguments in regards to contradictions which stem from a lack of understanding of the scripture. Which after reading the bible countless times through can be recognized in an instant. Asking who Jesus was talking to while on the cross, is a clear example of having no understanding of the scripture in even the remotest sense.

We will be glad to assist you, when you truly would like to better understand the scriptures to better your relationship with Christ, as this is what the post is centered on.

I have no problem answering questions( and I have done so to similar question extensively in the past on numerous occations ). Even the very simplistic ones in your post, which are not questions but very weak arguments which could be easily deflected. It must be to an end however, as there are several other questions within my emails, pms and on the boards, and several worth while projects I am working on for the site which would be better spent time when I know the person is truly seeking an answer. That is my stipulation for answering any question. This is the last post I intend on even addressing such weak arguments.

LivingSacrifice

04-19-2003, 06:45 PM

1 Cor 2:14 But the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishnesse vnto him: neither can hee knowe them, because they are spiritually discerned. (Geneva, 1599)

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)

1 Cor 2:14 A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can't understand them because they are spiritually evaluated. (ISV)

1 Cor 2:14 That's why only someone who has God's Spirit can understand spiritual blessings. Anyone who doesn't have God's Spirit thinks these blessings are foolish. (CEV)

The above for those who think we [who are convinced of the facts of the Triune God] are a bit nutty....

Venom

06-12-2003, 07:30 PM

Here is an awesome article by Jack Van Impe on the Trinity:

The thought of an eternal God being born may seem to be a contradiction of terms, but when one studies the God-man, the Lord Jesus Christ, insurmountable evidence supporting this truth manifests itself upon the pages of Holy Writ. The teachings of Christ's deity must be an accepted truth if one is to enter the eternal home of the redeemed.

John, in his first epistle, makes this dogmatic assertion: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) (1 John 1:1,2). There is no doubt that the One John saw, heard, and touched was that Eternal Life which was with the Father.

In chapter 2, verse 22, of this same epistle, John goes on to say, Who is a liar but he that denieth...the Father and the Son. When one denies that Christ is the eternal One who came to earth clothed in human flesh, this skeptic or doubter immediately is classified as a liar and an antichrist. Since no liar or antichrist may enter the presence of God in that condition, it is abundantly clear that the one who denies the eternity of Christ is lost.

In 1 John 4 another warning is presented. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. How does one recognize the false prophets? Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist (verses 1-3). Since spirits refers to teachers or preachers, the apostle is saying that preachers denying the doctrine of God coming in the flesh are preachers or teachers possessed by the spirit of Antichrist. God wrote it. I only quote it, but I believe it.

Then John states in chapter 5, verse 1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Messiah, translated Christus or Christ means "the Sent One". Since He was sent from the Father, the conclusive proof is that He already existed. If He preexisted His mission to earth, He did not begin in Bethlehem's manger. The teaching of the Holy Bible is that He eternally existed as God, the second member of the Trinity, and came to earth to be clothed with a body containing blood so that He might die for sinners. Is He really God? Did He really exist before His birth upon earth? What does the Holy Spirit state in the Word of God?

Christ's deity in the Old Testament
Isaiah 9:6 states, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder. This prophet speaks about Christ's incarnation and humanity in the phrase a child is born and about His eternity and deity in the other phrase a son is given. Incarnation comes from the Latin words in and carnis, meaning "flesh" or "in the flesh". Thus, at this incarnation or coming in the flesh, He was the child born. However, as the son given, He always existed -- uncreated and unborn.

Micah 5:2 states, Whose [His] goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. This again points to the uncreated, eternal Son of God. Psalm 45:6: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. This great Old Testament scripture, addressed to God, is about the Lord Jesus Christ. Who said so? The greatest authority in heaven and earth -- Jehovah, the Father. Prove it? I will!

In Hebrews 1:8 we find Jehovah God of the Old Testament speaking: Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, 0 God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Isn't this fantastic? The Father calls Christ "God" for ever and ever. Followers of Jehovah would be wise to listen to His voice and give Christ the glory due His holy name. God had His Son with Him from all eternity past. Christ was present when the human race was created. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were involved in Genesis 1:26 when God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. The pronouns us and our speak of a plurality or trinity of personages. This same Christ was present when the earth was formed and set into motion. Proverbs 30:4: Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? The Son is present in the Old Testament scriptures hundreds of years before His human birth occurs in the New Testament. Rational, logical contemplation makes one realize that He preexisted as God, the Son.

Christ's deity in the New Testament
(The Trinity)
The title of "God" is given to our Saviour on numerous occasions. Matthew 1:23 declares, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. In the first chapter of John, Christ is called "the Word." Verse 14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. The only member of the Trinity who became flesh was Christ. Since the term Word is synonymous with Christ, as has just been proven, let's put the term Christ in place of Word in John 1:1-3 and see the results. In the beginning was [Christ], and [Christ] was with God, and [Christ] was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by [Christ]; and without [Christ] was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 states, He [Christ] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Now we have just heard from the Author of this book, the Holy Spirit, who said that Christ was from the beginning, that He was God, and that He created the world. Yes, Christ shared this creative ministry with the Father and Holy Spirit. This is so because all three members of the one Godhead always existed.

To prove that the Holy Spirit was also present at the time of creation, one need only study Genesis 1:1,2. In the beginning God [this is the plural noun Elohim, meaning "more than one"] created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The combining of John 1:10 and Genesis 1:1,2 proves conclusively that the entire Trinity was present at the creation of the world.

Some scoff at the teaching of a Trinity. They say, "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, so there can't be such a doctrine." Well, the word Bible is not found in the Bible either, but I guarantee that there is such a book -- and the teaching of the Trinity is found repeatedly throughout God's Word. Man has given the title "Trinity" to the doctrine because the meaning of the word is "three." Since there are three -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- "Trinity" is a properly designated theological term.

Let's continue our search of the scriptures concerning the deity of Christ. The Philippian jailor cried out in Acts 16:30, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Paul and Silas replied, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (verse 31). The entire family made a commitment to this Christ and verse 34 finds them rejoicing. Why? Because they believed in God with all their house. Here is unequivocal proof that Christ is God. Compare the two verses again. Acts 16:31: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Verse 34 says he believed in God -- the Christ of verse 31.

Again we see the truth in Romans 9:5 which states, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. First Timothy 3:16 declares, Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, and Hebrews 1:8 says, But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever. This is Jehovah God telling the world that His Son is God. Never mind the book peddlers who run from door to door with their teaching of Christ being an inferior God, a little created God. Some even call Him Michael, the archangel. Jehovah knows everything for He is omniscient and all-wise, and He calls Jesus "God." I say with Paul in Romans 3:4, Let God be true, but every man a liar.

Christ's Deity through a comparison of Old and New Testament texts
Perhaps the most interesting and exciting proof of Christ's deity is discovered when one compares the statements of God in the Old Testament with His revealed truth in the New. For example, in Isaiah 42:8, God states, I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Since Jehovah will not give His glory to another but is willing to share it with Christ, it is only logically deductible to say that they must be one and coequal. The sharing of this glory takes place when God's people lay their crowns at the feet of the Saviour in Revelation 4:11, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Again the King of glory is Jehovah in Psalm 24:10. Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. The noun LORD in this text is the Hebrew word Jehovah, the name of the Father. However, when one examines 1 Corinthians 2:8, he discovers that the Lord of glory was crucified. Thus Christ is also called the Lord of glory. Will you Bible manipulators tell me how there can be two Lords of glory, coequal, if there is no Trinity?

Once again Isaiah 9:6 calls the child born and the son given, The mighty God, The everlasting Father. If these are titles of the Son, how many mighty Gods and everlasting Fathers are there? The answer is one because of the unity and oneness of the Trinity. Jesus said, I and my Father are one (John 10:30). Psalm 10:16 says, The LORD [Jehovah] is King for ever and ever. Again we have problems if there is no Trinity because we now have two kings. When one studies Revelation 19:11,16, he finds that Christ, the King of kings, comes to set up His kingdom upon this earth. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True. Verse 16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

This constant reiteration of identical names and titles for both Father and Son can mean only one thing to honest, searching hearts. It is that Christ is God, coequal with the Father and Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy 32:39 states, There is no god [but Jehovah] and yet 1 Timothy 3:16 tells us that God was made manifest [came] in the flesh. The only solution is the doctrine of the Triune God which the saints of all ages have proclaimed. The only groups in the annals of history that ever fought this precious truth were rebel-rousing heretics.

Mr. Scoffer, you who would make Christ but a mere man, what will you do with Jonah 2:9? Salvation is of the LORD. Or Isaiah 43:11 which says, I, even I, am the LORD [Jehovah]; and beside me there is no saviour. If there is no other Saviour but Jehovah, and Christ is called "the Saviour" scores of times in the Bible, then He and the Father must be one or there are two Saviours. Christ is the God who left the bosom of the Father to die on Calvary's cross. There He shed the pure sinless blood that coursed through His veins so that sinners might be eternally saved. The Bible teaches that He is the only Saviour. Acts 4:12: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Since both Jehovah and Christ are called "Saviour," let's believe that the Trinity alone presents the answer.

Christ was incarnated, not created
There are those who teach that the Father always existed and that Christ was created. Perish the thought! Christ always existed and was not created. Isaiah 43:10 states, Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. In simple English, no God was created before or after Jehovah. They coexisted as a Trinity eternally. Thus Christ was from all eternity or He wasn't. Either He always existed or He didn't. Since no God was created before or after Jehovah, we take Micah 5:2 for what it says about the One who was to come to earth and experience a human birth. He was from of old, from everlasting. Thus, His human birth was not His creation. Rather, as we discussed earlier in this chapter, the word incarnation comes from the Latin words in and carnis, meaning "in the flesh."

An eternal God having a birth is not contradictory. In eternity He was God. To become a man, a birth had to occur. None of us can become another species without the miracle of a birth. God had to become incarnated (become flesh) so that He could shed the pure, sinless blood that flowed in His veins. The miracle of the Holy Spirit's insemination of the virgin Mary's ova and womb with the body and blood of God the Son made this shedding of blood possible. This was a necessity because the blood of animals could not take away sin, only cover the sinner's transgression.

Hebrews 10:4 states, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. So verse 5 has Christ saying, A body hast thou prepared me. God lived in that body, went to the cross in that body, shed the blood in that body to take away the sins that had only been covered, died in that body, arose three days later in that same body, ascended to heaven in that body, and will throughout eternity live in that body in which He had the birth. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9).

There it is. The eternal God left heaven to be born into human flesh because a body could contain sinless blood through a virgin birth. That blood was shed for sins and can wash you from every stain and taint of this world's defilement when you put your trust in the God in whom the Philippian jailor trusted, the Lord Jesus Christ. Do it today.

Venom

06-12-2003, 07:31 PM

I'll add more later to, he's got some great ones.