Bible Prophecy- The Great Tribulation, "Left Behind"

[Adam Knowlden]

Bible Prophecy

"Left Behind"

The Great Tribulation

"For their shall be a great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be..." Matthew 24:21, Daniel 12:1

The bible teaches throughout the old and new testament, a period of great turmoil on the earth. It will consist of unprecedented tribulation, judgment, and Divine fury before the end-time glory and paradise.

The bible also clearly states that we are living in the end times. This can be identified in several places but especially in the book of Revelation when Jesus addresses the seven churches. These churches represent not only 7 literal churches at the time when John received the Revelation of Jesus, but also the 7 ages of mankind.

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We won't focus too much on the other churches just the church that represents our age. However, I'll give the time frames the other churches represent.

The Church at Ephesus- Rev. 2:1-7, The Apostolic age
The Church at Smyrna- Rev. 2:8-11, A.D. 160
The Church at Pergamos- Rev. 2: 12-17, A.D. 313
The Church at Thyatira- Rev. 2:18-29, A.D. The Dark Ages
The Church at Sardis- Rev. 3:1-6, A.D. 1517
The Church at Philadelphia- Rev. 3:7-13, A.D.1750
The Church at Laodecia- Rev. 3:14-22, THE CURRENT AGE, or THE LAST DAYS.

Laodecia means, "The rule or will of the people".Christ addresses himself as the "Amen" which means an eternal "So be it". Confirming all that he had commanded John to write as the final unalterable authority. Finding nothing but self-satisfaction of flesh lusts and material riches, the Lord reminds them of their spiritual poverty, and his disappointment. He ends with the forceful words, "Because you are Lukewarm I will spit you out of my mouth."

"Behold I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev. 3:20

This prophetic scenes paints one of the most pathetic pictures in the life of Christ, standing outside the door knocking for admittance into his own church. Or as it means for the age Laodecia corresponds to, the heart of man. However, it's a great lesson of Christ's patience and love and his respect for the will of man. He will never force an entrance into any heart. He must be invited in.

The boast of the Laodecia age is loud and clear. Never before has their been greater structures, more advanced technology, more worldly trappings of entertainment, more god-less and immoral living. The cry of "we need nothing" of the Laodecia age is being sung very loud indeed.

The Beginning of the "Day of the Lord"and the "Last Days",which are mentioned 75 times in the Old Testament as "That day" or "the great day", all foretell of a consummate period of God dealing with, "them that dwell on the earth on the face of the whole earth"(Luke 21:35), after taking out of his church "for his name"(Acts 15:14).

The great Day of the Lord will come in three phases:

1. The Rapture.

The removal of the Church which will usher in the Great Tribulation.

Just imagine the great chaos and confusion the Rapture of the Church will cause on the earth!

Imagine you wake up at night and your spouse isn't there anymore. Or co-workers are just gone! Or just imagine if the rapture occurred during rush hour! Cars would just be suddenly and swiftly abandoned! All Christians will be gone! If it happened right now, just imagine President Bush and who knows how many of our countries leaders just suddenly vanish. And this happens on a global scale! The Rapture will no doubt cause total chaos on the earth! Total havoc!

"For they will say peace and safety! Then sudden destruction comes on them, as labor pains on a pregnant woman. And they will not escape." II Thess. 5:4

2. The Rise of the Anti-Christ

This removing of the Church, or Rapture, will plunge the world into spiritual darkness and moral corruption. The Rapture will usher in the beginning of the Tribulation, a 7 year period.

Just imagine all the Christians are instantly gone! And since the Holy Spirit lives inside of all Believers this means when we all go, the Holy Spirit of God will be gone, and chaos will break out across the globe. I have not doubts that there will be riots and looting galore! There will be no more restraint on Satan to bring forth his "man of the hour", the Anti-Christ. Who will bring temporary order to this chaos.

"And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the brightness of his coming". II Thess. 2:8

It's important to note at this point that references to the Anti-Christ are given throughout the Bible, even though the book of Revelation is the central book of future prophecy. The Books of Daniel and Ezekiel for example are other great books of prophecy that gives large amounts of detail to future events.

For example, the vision of the Seventy weeks of Daniel (chapter 9:24-27) also describes the rise and fall of the Anti-Christ. (I'm going to cover this entire vision more in a future post in this thread.)

Daniel 9: 27 "Then he will confirm a covenant...And on the wing of abominations will be one who makes desolate. Even until the consummation which is determined. Is poured out on the desolate.(Armageddon)".

3. The Tribulation.

God is going to judge this world for its sin

If you went through and studied all the passages in the Scripture dealing with the Tribulation, you would never find one single word that would in any way alleviate the punishment, the wrath, the fear, the terror, and the misery and the judgment of a furious God.

Make no mistake about it. The Lord of Hosts is a God of Mercy and Love. And the Bible says he is longsuffering so that none should perish, but on the "Day of the Lord" God's patience will be at its limits. He will remove his children and unleash his wrath upon the earth and its stubborn citizens! Until now God's throne has been the throne of Grace, but now it is the throne of judgment.

The First three and a half years

1. Following the chaos of the Rapture will bring in the Anti-Christ's rise to power.

The time between the Rapture and the Anti-Christ's rise to power isn't told, but it will have to be fairly soon as the world will be in total chaos and be in desperate need of a leader. It will be a time of relative peace in Israel and in the world for 3 ½ years.

Daniel 7:24 "The ten horns are ten kings who shall rise form this kingdom. And another shall rise after them. He shall be different than the other ones, and shall subdue three kings. He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, and shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change the law."

This vision Daniel had corresponds exactly with the book of Revelation's description of the Anti-Christ, but gives us more insight as to how he will bring order to the chaos.
In those times a horn represented power which means the Anti-Christ will be the leader of a ten nation confederacy. And after Russia attempts to invade Israel the whole world will follow him under total dictatorship.

"And I saw a Beast rising out of the sea., having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name."(Rev. 13:1)

The seven heads denote completeness of wisdom while the ten horns represent power in the form of confederated political power, and the crowns authority to rule. These qualifications will represent just what a Christ-less world will need at that time. A super-leader to solve the problems of mankind.

Who is the Anti-Christ?

1. His names described in the Bible identify his character.

A. The man of sin and the man of perdition (Hell)

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for "That Day" will not come unless the falling away comes first (The Rapture), and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." II Thess. 2:3

B. The Wicked One.

C. The Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15

D. the King of fierce countenance in Daniel 8:23-25. Daniel also describes him as The Horn, or world power and the Desolator of Daniel 9:27

E. the Beast in Rev. 13:2, "The Dragon(Satan) gave him his power, his throne, and great authority". Another thing that confuses a lot of people when they read Revelations is the animals described in the visions of John. The animals described in Revelation are not animal monstrosities but are actually metaphors for a description of world power, having the characteristics of the animals portrayed. We use the same language in a sense, with the Chinese Dragon, The Russian Bear, and the American eagle. Examples of these types of metaphors can be seen throughout the bible, for example in one of Daniel's visions, the swift conquests of Alexander of Greece were symbolized by the agile swiftness of a leopard.(Daniel 7:6)

2. He will be an absolute dictator with great political power.

"He causes all, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their foreheads, and no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name;His number is 666." Rev. 13:17-18

"And authority was given to him over every tribe, tongue, and nation." Rev. 13:7

When the beast reigns there will be absolutely no buying or selling of anything unless you bear his mark. With the computer technologies of today the tracking of people can be easily done. We have the technology today! We also have the power to cause the world wide destruction the Tribulation will bring about! See further in the thread for more on that. But the things the bible described that seemed impossible 50 years ago are things which can be easily done today.

Daniel was also told in a vision that in the end times, "knowledge shall increase" Daniel 12:4.

"And they worshiped the Dragon (Satan)...and they worshiped the beast"

So in essence no one can survive without worshipping the devil at this time. No man's life can be sustained unless he bows to the Devil and receives the mark or the number of the name of the Anti-Christ.

3. He receives his power straight from Satan. Just as Jesus was God in the flesh, so the Anti-Christ will be "The Dragon, that serpent of Old, who is the Devil and Satan"(Rev. 20:2) in the flesh.

"The Dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority." Rev. 13:2

"The coming of the Lawless one is according to the work of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders." II Thess. 2:9

The Limited Career of the Anti-Christ.

The Anti-Christ's reign will be a short lived seven years. At first subtle and deceptive and later blasphemous, tyrannical, and utterly possessed and endued with satanic power and authority.

The seven years of the Anti-Christ career synchronizes with the final week of Daniel's great prophecy of "seventy weeks". As foreseen in the prophecy, the beginning of the final week is marked by the signing of a treaty or covenant between a powerful world figure, described as the "prince that shall come" (Matt. 9:24-27 and John 5:43), and a large representation of the Jewish nation who, in accepting the treaty as a league of friendship and freedom form persecution, will be encouraged to worship in the temple.

Israel is not only the center of past history, but also of biblical prophecy, which is, after all, future history as revealed by God. The final restoration of Israel(see part I) is a central part of biblical prophecy about the End Times, but it is only one of many parts. There are many exciting things the Lord has promised, including the Rapture of the Church, the return of Christ to the earth, the Millennial Kingdom, and the eternal New Jerusalem. However, there are also some very devastating events in the divine forecast, such as the War of Gog and Magog, the Great Tribulation and the War of Armageddon.

The Anti-Christ will just be a part of what is called the Unholy Trinity.

The Unholy Trinity will consist of:

Satan, that old serpent, the Devil (Rev. 12:9) He is the one who gives power to the Anti-Christ. He is synonymous to God the Father in the Holy Trinity. The authority of God.

The Anti-Christ, the blasphemous leader of the last satanic inspired World order. (Rev. 13:1-10, II Thess. 2:2-13) He is synonymous to God the Son in the Holy Trinity. Satan in the flesh.

The false prophet, the third person of the evil trinity, the culmination of all heresies(Rev. 13:11-18), who by his deceptive propaganda and satanic "marvels"will cause the whole world to worship the Anti-Christ. He is synonymous to God the Holy Spirit in the Holy Trinity. The Word of the Anti-Christ and the one who gives him power.

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The tribulation will be a time of terrifying judgments from God. The seven seals (Rev. 6), the Seven Trumpets( rev. 8,9) and the Seven bowls (Rev. 16) represent the unleashing of this wrath. These horrific judgments begin with the opening of the Seven Seals...

The Seven Seals: Revelation chapter 6

The first four seals are the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.

The four horsemen are presented as symbols of the human agencies divinely employed to execute the judgments of the earth. Basically, the four horsemen show the timeline of the anti-Christ from a man of peace to a man of death. Even though, the world is going through total chaos, the Tribulation will also be a time of huge revival! However, if you become a follower of God during this time, which means you won't take the Beast's mark, you will feel the wrath of the Anti-Christ and Satan and will die of martyrdom or death from wrath.

1. The First Seal. The opening of the first seal reveals a white horse and rider. He is carrying a bow with no arrows, showing peace. This first horsemen refers to the period of false peace the anti-Christ will provide. After the man of lawlessness is revealed this rider subjects the whole world to his conquest of tyranny.

The bringing of this peace will start with a peace treaty between the anti-christ and the nation of Israel.
The Anti-Christ will set up peace in Israel, and allow the Jews to worship in there temple again. He will perform miracles and deceive the whole world! He will bring back order to the confusion and chaos the Rapture caused to happen. Through the help of his false prophet, the forming of the Unholy Trinity is fulfilled!

2. The second seal. The second seal will be a red horse with the rider who is given a great sword. The Peace the Anti-Christ brought will be removed and the time of killing begins!

This breaking of the treaty will start with the War of Gog and Magog, the nation to the extreme north of Israel (Magog) organizes an invasion of Israel. Magog has traditionally been interpreted as being what we know as Russia, which is to the extreme due north of Israel. But Russia does not act alone. The Bear of the north forms an alliance with several specific nations surrounding Israel at a distance: Persia, Ethiopia and Libya.

The Alliance of the armies of Gog and Magog determines that it must invade Israel to gain a spoil (Ezek. 38:11-12). The Russian Alliance attacks Israel in an invasion with overwhelming forces. The Alliance is convinced that it cannot lose in a conflict with the relatively puny nation of Israel.

However, the armies of Gog and Magog have made a serious miscalculation. They have not considered that the Lord God of the universe promised over 2,500 years ago to protect Israel and repel this very invasion. It will not be the valiant citizen soldiers of Israel who will accomplish this victory, though, but the supernatural power of the Almighty. There will be earthquakes and fire from heaven, and the powerful invading armies will "fall upon the mountains of Israel" and will "fall upon the open fields" (Ezek. 39:4-5). To the astonishment of Israel and the world, the hostile invasion with overwhelming numbers and resources is a total failure. The invaders of Israel suffer an 85% casualty rate (Ezek. 39:2).

The seven years mentioned by Ezekiel is precisely the same amount of time indicated by his contemporary, Daniel, in the famous Seventieth Week. It is apparent that Ezekiel and Daniel are referring to the same period of future time, which is the Tribulation.

In this prophetic scenario, with the disappearance of the Church through the Rapture and the devastation of the Middle East in the collapse of the Gog and Magog invasion the stage is set for the rise of the Antichrist to calling himself the Messiah and the dire developments of the Tribulation.

The Anti-Christ will come to the rescue with his ten nation confederacy and claim that he destroyed the armies and he is the one who supernaturally saved Israel from their enemies and will take all the credit.

The Anti-Christ will take peace from the earth, and the sword given to him is symbolic of power to sever all ties of restraint. National hostilities, international treaties violated without second thoughts, civil authorities unable to stop the flood of violence, riots, class wars, race wars, universal aggression which breeds blood shed and genocide, "that they should kill one another."

After the anti-christ has taken the credit for defeating the armies of the North, he will march into Jerusalem and announce that he is the Messiah! He is god!

This will send the Jews running to the mountains! They will know that they have been tricked! And this is the time the killing begins!

War in Heaven- The beginning of the end!

This war marks the time of the true tribulation!
These times will be so terrible words can not describe it. The Bible says men will flee to the mountains and pray to the mountains that they will fall on them so they can die!

It all sets into motion when a war occurs in heaven between Michael the archangel and his angels against Satan and his demonic hordes of fallen angels.

The Bible says Satan and his angels will lose and be cast to earth. And the devil will, "Have great wrath for he knows that he has but a short time." Rev. 12:9-12

A great woe is pronounced to the inhabitants of the earth, for Satan is cast to the earth and is determined to destroy any remaining mortals who have relationship with God. This will make Israel a special target of Satan's wrath.

He will act through the Anti-Christ, who is Satan in the flesh. The Devil will work through him and give him all his power, just as he declared he could do in Luke 4:5-6, "to whomsoever I will I give it."

This will usher in the breaking of the treaty and the desecration of their temple. For the Anti-Christ will declare himself God and reign for 3 and ½ more years.

"And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. The he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, his tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven." Rev. 13:5

This will bring about the nation of Israel in total turmoil! They will realize they've been tricked and the Anti-Christ is really their mortal enemy!

This will be the beginning of the end, the real tribulation!

The Anti-Christ rules now, Israel is on the run, God's wrath is unleashed, and all Hell breaks loose!

3. The third Seal. The scene that the third horseman brings is a black horse with a man carrying balances in his hands. The aftermath of any war is famine, and the horseman cries, "a measure of wheat for a day's wages." This paints a picture of food crisis and inflation that has never been seen before. A true economic crisis and a time of starvation that will make the Great Depression look like a feast. Hunger is a living death, and no doubt that many will take the beast's mark for it is the only way to purchase any food.

4. The fourth seal. "Behold a pale horse: and his name that sat upon him was Death, and Hell followed with Him." Next a pale horse is revealed. The rider's name is death which inevitably follows famine. The first seal that is revealed is a false peace, the second war, the third death. This horse will bring about the death of ¼ of the earth's population. Pestilence, chemical and nuclear warfare are going to be running rampant on the earth. Weapons of mass destruction that can fulfill the gruesome scenes the bible paints of the last days are now a reality that can fulfill these prophecies! So much so that ¼ of the population will die with this fourth seal!

There are still 3 more seals to go along with the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls of God's wrath that will be poured on the earth. Those will be covered in a future post in this thread! Stay tuned!

One more thing I wanted to cover in this thread is something I hear all the time, "If I see the rapture happen then I'll believe. If I see the anti-Christ rise then I'll get saved."

No you won't!

"The coming of the Lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie..."

II Thess. 2:9-11

After the rapture God will give the Anti-Christ power to cause strong delusion on the earth to explain away the rapture. The bible doesn't tell what this delusion will be; only that it will come from God and it will be strong.

You also have to remember the Anti-Christ will be accepted for his mighty power and his ability to perform miracles! He will fool the world!

You also have to keep in mind that during the Tribulation you can not buy, sell, work, rent, own, trade, anything without the mark of the Beast. The delusion will be strong and the choices limited. Take the mark or starve! There will be a huge revival during the Tribulation, but also strong delusion! There will be no mercy on the earth at this time!

Just as many are deceived today by the devil and won't accept the free Salvation God has to offer, so to will they be deceived during the Tribulation.

Stay tuned for future expansions of this post as we dive further into the study of the Great Tribulation!

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[President Wilson]

Excellent, I'm printing it off right now!

[xavior]

thankyou Old School, this is my favorite verse in the entire bible

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> "Behold I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev. 3:20 </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I think it speaks volumes

[librazone]

What church are you talking about?

Christ is the soul from the greek christos...spirit.
The ego is satan.

The conflict of mankind is between the soul and the ego.

The death and resurrection of christ represents the death of our worldly physical selves and the rebirth of our souls(christ) into another physical self...reincarnation.

We are not our bodies.It is our souls(christ) which are eternal.

Christ(the soul) is the son of God.

[President Wilson]

That was superb Adam! Absolutely superb! There are so many things to discuss in this post. Especially about Isrial. The first verse about the anti-christ is very interesting. Its also very interesting how you pointed out, that Satan mimics God. Even to the point of setting up an unholy trinity. Another example was again in the first seal

[ QUOTE ]
Come and see; And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer."
<hr /></blockquote>

In comparision

1. The anti-christ appears at the beginning of the Tribulation, Christ will appear at its end.

3. This rider uses conventional weapons, "a bow" but Christ will fight with "the sword of His mouth".

4. This rider wears a victor;s "crown", stefanos (stephanos), but when Christ appears he will be wearing "many diadems", diadhmata (diademata).

5. This man initiates wars, Christ will end them.

6. This man goes forth unnamed( but we know latter in the scriptures that he is identified clearly as the Anti-Christ as you discussed and from prophesy ), but when Christ appears he will be wearing his name for all to see, "King of Kings and Lord of Lords".

This prophesy post was off the charts!

[PsychoJr]

Good post Oldschool. Did you write all that or copy it?

[Adam Knowlden]

I wrote it.

I didn't make it all up. I've been taking what we've been studying in church, doing outside research, and making my own notes evey week on it. Then I decided to start posting my notes on here for everyone to read if they wanted.

[ QUOTE ]
What church are you talking about?
<hr /></blockquote>

The church is us, the believers in Jesus.

We are the church of the firstborn.

[ QUOTE ]
The death and resurrection of christ represents the death of our worldly physical selves and the rebirth of our souls(christ) into another physical self...reincarnation.
<hr /></blockquote>

It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgement.

We never reicarnate into another body. When we die our spirit is released. During the Rapture God will raise our dead bodies back to life and they will be immortal forever.
We will get bodies like Jesus got when he was raised from the dead. But it will be OUR bodies. When we die we don't come back to life in another body. Reincarnation is a lie.

[ QUOTE ]
We are not our bodies.It is our souls(christ) which are eternal.
<hr /></blockquote>

YOu and me are not Christ. We are not God. Our spirits are eternal, but there is only one God.

"There were no gods formed before me, nor will there be any after me."

[ QUOTE ]
Christ(the soul) is the son of God. <hr /></blockquote>

I sincerely hope you don't believe all this New Age stuff that tells people, "You are the son of God", if so you've bought into a lie.

I John 2:22, 23

"And who is the greatest liar? The one who says Jesus is not the Christ. Such a person is anti-Christ, for he does not believe in God the Father and in his Son. For a person who does not believe in Christ, God's Son, can not have God the Father either. But he who has Christ, God';s Son, has God the Father also."

I John 4: 1-3

"Brothers, do not believe every spirit, but test whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God."

If a person does not confess that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God and came into the flesh, then it is anti-Christ.

[Venom]

Excellent old school! I am going to read this several times. Tons of information!
I am loving it though, keep up the great work.
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[Adam Knowlden]

Hey Venom!

Yeah, there is a lot there, and that's just the tip of the iceburg.

I'm going to be periodically adding more to this post, but not too fast cause I don't want the post to get bogged down all at once!LOL

I've had an inquiry about the 7 churches that are described in Revelation, so I think I'll add a post about them next. also, I plan on adding a post about the 70 week vision of Daniel. This is crucial to understanding prophecy cause Daniel's vision basically covers Israel's path from beginning to end.

Then I'll continue with the rest of the Tribularion.
The rest of the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls of wrath.

Armageddon will be the next new thread.
Its a lot so I want to break it up.

[librazone]

First of all dont start that McCarthyism with me...what the hell is "new age"?

You must know that much of the early writings were done in the Greek language...so the word christ does mean soul or spirit.

The aspect of reincarnation was left out of the bible by those manipulative minds who did not want people to know the truth.

By the way reincarnation is not new knowledge it is thousands of years old...check out Hinduism.

And the bible does state that "whoever is in Christ is a new person,behold all things are made new." In other words those who choose to live in their Christ(soul-self) as opposed to their egoself are made new.



The soul(christ) is our connection to god.That is why it is stated that "you shall not come to the father but by me".

Christ is in us sir.It is the soul of man.

And why did John state "...what manner of grace has the Father bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God" ?


"Love not the world,nor the things of the world.For whoever loves the world cannot love the Father." We cannot find God through our egos(worldly selves)...only through our souls.

The tribulation is interesting but I think people should stick with the aspect of Christianity which deals mostly with their own selves ....the ego(satan) versus the soul(christ).


And could you please explain the following.
"I come not to bring peace but to bring a sword, to turn brother against brother....." I'm sure you are acquainted with this verse.

Peace.

[Adam Knowlden]

New Age tends to believe the following statements:

1) Jesus is revered as a highly spiritually evolved being who serves as an example for further evolution. His miracles are accepted as manifestations of his mastery of divine energy or his tapping into the 'Christ' power.

2) The individual, personal, historical Jesus is separated form the universal, impersonal, eternal Christ or Christ consciousness. Jesus is a Christ, but not the Christ.

3) The orthodox understanding of Jesus as the final and supreme revelation of God is dismissed as illegitimate. We all have the potential to become 'Christs'.

4) Jesus' death on the cross is not accepted as having any ethical significance for salvation.

5) Jesus' resurrection from the dead is not viewed as a physical fact demonstrating his victory over sin, death and Satan but as a spiritual triumph not unique to Jesus. There are many other 'Ascended Masters.'

6) Jesus' second coming is not a literal, physical and visible return in the clouds at the end of the age but is rather a stage in the evolution of the race. One New Age teacher tells his clients, 'You are god, you are each and every one, part of the second coming.'

7) Exotic extra-biblical documents are regarded as sources for authentic material about the life of Jesus not available from the Scriptures.


Manipulative minds? The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. Are you saying God is manipulative?

God didn't leave out Reincarnation. He said its garbage, and a lie.

The Bible is clear.
Hebrews 9: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.
No mystery there. You die once, and then you are judged. If you know Christ as you savior you will enter heaven. If you don't you will be cast to hell.
He makes us a new creature in the fact that our eyes are opened and we are saved by the blood of Jesus. We are born again. Not in the flesh in the form of Reincarnation but in the Spirit.
John 3


Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] "
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.[4] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[5]
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[7] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[8]


Becoming a new Creature, has nothing to do with Reincarnation. Not one place in the whole bible does God say you will be reincarnated. During the Rapture Belivers will be raised from the dead, in our own bodies as Jesus was, not as a means of starting over in this life. Reincarnation basically means you are not yet good enough to reach heaven so you continue to get reincarnated until you fulfill your purpose on the earth. That is totally contradictory to the bible.
Hinduism is the worship of many gods. So many they are countless.
The bible is also clear about this. "Thou shall have no other gods before me."
Hinduism is false and in no way is a form of truth. Are you saying that Hinduism informs of us of something that God "forgot"to mention? Because that is a wrong assumption. God doesn't "hide" truths in false religions. Hinduism doesn't claim Jesus as their one and only savior and one and only God. They worship idols which are strictly forbidden in the bible.
Leviticus 26:1 " 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God."
And this is just one example in the Bible. There are countless others.
Your ego is you own will or sin. Not Satan. Satan is the prince of darkness who allows you to worship your own will and ego. We need Christ to redeem us of our sins. We can't find salvation within ourselves. Only Christ can give that. So to say that the battle is Satan (our ego) vs. Christ (our soul) is saying that you are a god and you have to defeat your own personal Satan yourself. No, that is not the teachings of Christ. We must rebuke Satan and defeat our sinful nature with the help of God through Jesus Christ. This is exactly what I mean by "New Age" teaching. That somehow you can bring Salvation to yourself and you don't need Jesus as an outside divine being.
The verse you are referring to is Matthew 10:34
I came, not to send peace, but a sword.
By the "sword" may be meant the Gospel, which is the means of dividing and separating the people of Christ from the men of the world, and from their principles and practices, and one relation from another; as also of divisions, discords, and persecutions arising from it: not that it was the intention and design of Christ, in coming into the world, to foment and encourage such things; but this, through the malice and wickedness of men, was eventually the effect and consequence of his coming; see (Luke 12:51) where, instead of a "sword", it is "division"; because the sword divides asunder, as does the sword of the Spirit, the word of God.
Christ does bring peace, not as the world gives, but it is not the force of compromise with evil, but of conquest over wrong, over Satan, the triumph of the cross. Meanwhile there will be inevitably division in families, in communities, in states. It is no namby-pamby sentimentalism that Christ preaches, no peace at any price. The Cross is Christ's answer to the devil's offer of compromise in world dominion. For Christ the kingdom of God is virile righteousness, not mere emotionalism.

[President Wilson]

[ QUOTE ]
You must know that much of the early writings were done in the Greek language...so the word christ does mean soul or spirit.

<hr /></blockquote>

We have access to the origional Greek. The manuscripts we have for the new testiment are more than for any other work of antiquity ever.

The word in Greek is : Cristovß Which sounds like
Christos

Its meaning is " the anointed "

Yeshua Christos = Jesus The Anointed One. The origional meaning is not soul

[Adam Knowlden]

http://www.bibleprophecynews.com/revintro/slide3.jpg

The meaning of the 7 churches in the book of Revelation, chapters 2-3:

The 7 churches represent 7 literal churches at the time John received the Revelation of Jesus, however many bible scholars see in the seven selected churches (there were many other churches in Asia at the time) the whole Christian body at all times and places.
Christ himself reveals the explanation that the 7 candles sticks represent the 7 churches holding the word of light. This simile is also true of each individual Christian: "You are the light of the world" Matt. 5:14. The prophetic significance of the churches is the only division of the Apocalypse that has to do with the present.

Christ is seen in the midst of the candlesticks as Lord and Judge. This is, and is, his relation to the entire church universal. This implies the true universal body of Christ; those called from every place and generation during the period known as the "dispensation of grace. He is still building, calling out, saving and perfecting this elect body.

Revelation 2 and 3

To the church in Ephesus

1"To the angel[1] of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lamp stands: 2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

The Apostolic age

Ephesus means "desirable". This is the picture of the church as it was in the beginning, when the Lord held the stars (His ministers) in his right hand. He was in their presence to encourage, admonish, reprove, correct, and guide. The church then walked in separation from the world. This is Gods desirable. Ephesus was the center idolatry; the Christian assembly was the "light holder" in the stronghold of Satan.

Ephesus is commended for its labor, patient endurance, and spiritual discernment.

To the Church in Smyrna

8"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty-yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

A.D. 160

Smyrna means myrrh (actually bitter), a symbol of suffering. Myrrh had to be crushed to give out its fragrance. Fierce persecution had its center in Smyrna. The assembly was crushed under the imperial laws against Christianity; however the "fragrance" of their devotion triumphed above centuries of almost constant martyrdom. The persecution had begun in John's day but was prophetic of the cruel persecution of Christians during the successive reigns of the deified emperors of pagan Rome. The message commends them for their faithfulness in tribulation and poverty, and reminds them in spite of their persecution they are rich.

To the Church in Pergamum

12"To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
These are the words of him who has the sharp, doubleedged sword. 13I know where you live-where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city-where Satan lives. 14Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. 15Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

A.D. 313

Pergamos has two meanings, suggestive of compromise. Its suggested meanings are marriage and elevation (a mixed marriage). The state of compromise began with the dubious conversion of the emperor Constantine who declared himself a Christian, and Christianity, once outlawed and condemned as heresy against the state, now was declared the state religion. Compromise was inevitable until it became difficult to distinguish the between the church and the world. History is the record of increasing corruption of the church, a departure from the biblical doctrine by attempting to combine Christian worship and Pagan rites and setting the stage for the Dark Ages.

Pergamos was a center of paganism, as evidenced by the many temples erected in honor of numerous gods. It is not surprising the Lord would say, "I know...where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is."

To the Church in Thyatira

18"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25Only hold on to what you have until I come. 26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations--
27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'[2] -- 28just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The Dark Ages

The rise of papal power failed to expunge the Book of Revelation from the bible. It became a sealed book. The era of torture, death, and devilish darkness is now a horrible page in the annals of history.

The church is commended for its works, charity, service, faith, and patience. With these commendable qualities could there be room for condemnation? Even in the abundance of good works, Christ condemned for the following of the prophetess Jezebel, who worshipped idols. Ephesus was lacking in love but had no tolerance for evil, Thyatira exercised love but tolerated evil. The church at Thyatira is rebuked for tolerating the false teachings of the prophetess who openly advocates apostasy. The church is indicted for its spiritual wickedness. Whether the woman's name was really Jezebel is of no importance, the name associated with her immorality is enough. Her unenviable record be read in I Kings 21.

To the Church in Sardis

1"To the angel[1] of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[2] of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

A.D. 1517

The word Sardis, in reference to the church, means the escaping ones; those who come out.

Though the church at Sardis was considered to be a spiritual church from external observations, it is actually spiritually dead, merely living on its name and reputation.
In the middle of its spiritual death and deception, there are a few who had kept themselves unspotted from the world. There is no condemnation in the message to this church, only the recognition of a few accounted worthy.

"The ones how come out" is paralleled to the history of Christendom now known as the Reformation of the sixteenth century. A remnant of true believers dared to come out to preserve the true faith. The Great Reformation was, next to the Apostolic age, the most vital part of the history of the church.

To the Church in Philadelphia

7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

A.D.1750

The name Philadelphia means "brotherly love."

In the survey of the spiritual standing of the assemblies of the Lord, it is awesome to find a church who is faithful to Christ and his word.
The message to the assembly is one of praise. Christ declared, "I have set before you an open door, and no man can shut it." The continued testimony of the Philadelphia church was made possible by Jesus keeping the door of opportunity opened against any opposition forces that opposed it. This assurance of the open door may be prophetic of the era of worldwide evangelism and great missionary movements that followed through the centuries after the Romanism.

In reference to verse 10, is another strong case for the churches deliverance from the Tribulation. For the faithfulness of the Philadelphian church Jesus declared he will deliver his Church from the day of the Lord.

He uses the verb tereso (will keep) and the preposition ek (out) of and tes horas (the hour). That is "out of" the specific period of the trial of tribulation that is predicted in the bible.

To the Church in Laodicea

14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

THE CURRENT AGE, or THE LAST DAYS.

This church bears reference to Luke warm Christians and all the inhabitants of the earth as Christ's final warning before the Day of the Lord.

Though the church is still strong it is drowning in a world of sin. Also, the church is lukewarm and Christ reveals his disappointment and nausea at the half-hearted, lukewarm attitude regarding vitality and life.

So it was in the Laodicean church, their boast was in their self-sufficency. Absorbed in their material riches they were blind to their spiritual poverty.

[coolrock]

WoW /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I cannot believe how much I have learned reading this post. You really know Gods holy word Old School, this post has really helped me /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was just reading Revelation, and this brings it to life

[Adam Knowlden]

I'm glad it is helping you bro!

The book of Revelation can be hard to understand.

One thing you have to know is that it isn't always in chronological order. If you try to follow the whole thing chronologically you'll go insane.

We have to look at the entire bible to make Revelation make sense. I'll try to help(with the awesome help of Jacob and Venom /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif) accomplish that in the weeks to come.

Yes, please do. I've been confused about so many things since I was a kid. Sorta makes it difficult to explain it to someone else if you don't understand it well enough yourself, I'm guilty!

I've always been confused about dying and judgement. It's like, if there is just ONE big judgement, then where are everyone's souls until then? In limbo somewhere? Or is each person judged as soon as they die?

There is so much I don't know, don't understand, and am all confused about. I think the only true thing that has kept me from falling away from God all these years (I was saved very young) is just the somehow KNOWING and FEELING that this is right. Just knowing that if everyone REALLY, ACTUALLY, loved each other as God loves us that it would make the world a much better place. Just feeling things in my heart, always just abhoring anything remotely evil, stuff like that, kinda hard to explain, it's just that the feeling has always been there even if I don't understand it all. But I really would like to understand it. So yep, keep it coming Adam. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/xyxthumbs.gif

[librazone]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Christianity can be summed up by the two word message of Jesus Christ "Lose Thyself". In other words get rid of our big ugly egos which we have formed in the world and return to our true soul selves.Christ calls for the absolution of our egos.
Our bodies are the temple of the living god.
To be born again is to overcome ones ego and return to that soul self that we were when we entered this world.

You see I do not need long explanations for what I want to say.The truth is simplistic and the words of Christ are simple straightforward truths.

Our mortal bodies die but our souls are eternal.

[Venom]

"You see I do not need long explanations for what I want to say. The truth is simplistic and the words of Christ are simple straightforward truths."

Agreed!

Romans 10:1-11
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you confess Jesus is Lord the only begotten Son of God, and believe that he is Rison from the grave, and at the right hand of the father glorified forever more, you shall be saved! Can't get simpler than that ah! Christ and him crucified the hope of glory. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I enjoy reading these posts, but like Librazone, I wonder if we are digging to deep, they also confuse the hell out of me. I would have thought as long as we have love, respect and compassion for our fellow human beings and all of God's creations then we will be judged fairly when that time comes.

[Adam Knowlden]

Rev. 1:3, says straight up that a special blessing is giving to those that study prophecy.

Other reasons include:

The church is filled with questions concerning bible prophecy, particularly end time prophecy. Since close to 40% of the Bible is prophetic scripture, we need to have an understanding as believers of the Lord. Our faith is based on all of Gods word, not just favorite verses or passages. It is my belief that prophecy is just as important to the believer as the rest of the bible.

Where prophecy comes from;

2 Peter 1: 20-21

"For no prophecy recorded in scripture was ever thought up by the prophet himself. It was the Holy Spirit within these godly men who gave them true messages from God."

Why are the prophetic events of the bible important?

1. They are part of God's word.

2. All scripture is from God and profitable (2 Timothy 3:16)

3. Our faith must operate on the whole word of God and be supported by it. (Romans 10:17)

4. They inform us of Israel's historical value, especially how God dealt with His original chosen people.

5. They reveal God's plan and timetable- knowledge which the church must have.

Also, "good works" don't get one into heaven. All have fallen short of the glory of God. The bible says no one can boast because no one is perfect. The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ.

When an adulterous woman was about to be stoned near where Jesus was, the people asked Jesus what they should do. HE said,"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Point is, no one is perfect so just being a nice guy won't get you in heaven. You have to ask God to forgive you sins, confess you're a sinner to God, and say with you lips that you believed Jesus died and rose again for you. Mean it in your heart and you will be saved. God made it too easy

"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but through me."

As far as after death, God wants us to be informed about it.

The Rapture involves far more than a removal of saints. It is first and foremost a return of the Savior. Jesus will return prophetically and He will return personally!

I Thess. 4:13

"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep (those who have died), or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
This concern came after Paul left the Greek city of Thessalonica. Paul had told the Thessalonians about Christ's return. After Paul had left the city a few of the older Christians died. That made the other Christians wonder about what would happen to their friends when Jesus came back. Would those who died be left out of the glory of Jesus'return?

THere is no such thing as "soul sleep", when you die your spirit either goes to heaven or hell. During the Rapture all those who were saved by Jesus will be raised from the dead like Jesus was and our physical bodies will be made immortal. Just like what happened to Jesus.

See the Rapture link in my sig.

Those who died unsaved, will raise from the dead after the end of the tribulation, and since they didn't accept Salvation they will be judged according to their works. And let me tell you that won't get anyone very far!

[Scott B]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>

Point is, no one is perfect so just being a nice guy won't get you in heaven. You have to ask God to forgive you sins, confess you're a sinner to God, and say with you lips that you believed Jesus died and rose again for you. Mean it in your heart and you will be saved. God made it too easy
<hr /></blockquote>

Just a point of clarification here. If you do everything you say in the above paragraph except be "a nice guy" your a hypocrite. And don't forget, faith, without good works, is dead.

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Scott B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>

Point is, no one is perfect so just being a nice guy won't get you in heaven. You have to ask God to forgive you sins, confess you're a sinner to God, and say with you lips that you believed Jesus died and rose again for you. Mean it in your heart and you will be saved. God made it too easy
<hr /></blockquote>

Just a point of clarification here. If you do everything you say in the above paragraph except be "a nice guy" your a hypocrite. And don't forget, faith, without good works is dead. <hr /></blockquote>

I guess the serial killer who finds God ten minutes before we fry him is saved but the man who does good deeds al his life but doesnt find god is ****ed.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Scott B]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Mr O:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Scott B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>

Point is, no one is perfect so just being a nice guy won't get you in heaven. You have to ask God to forgive you sins, confess you're a sinner to God, and say with you lips that you believed Jesus died and rose again for you. Mean it in your heart and you will be saved. God made it too easy
<hr /></blockquote>

Just a point of clarification here. If you do everything you say in the above paragraph except be "a nice guy" your a hypocrite. And don't forget, faith, without good works is dead. <hr /></blockquote>

I guess the serial killer who finds God ten minutes before we fry him is saved but the man who does good deeds al his life but doesnt find god is ****ed.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <hr /></blockquote>

I have a hard time with that too. But I also believe God is fair and just. Maybe all of us in the last seconds of our life a get a final chance for salvation. Maybe we all get to heaven.

[Adam Knowlden]

Check out the story of Saul Mr. O.

He murdered Christians.

Then he converted after coming face to face with Jesus and became known as the apostle Paul!

No sin is too big that God can't forgive it. But you will have to suffer for your sins. Paul committed murder. He was forgiven but he suffered the rest of his life! He also had some kind of physical affliction, that he described as a "thorn in his side". Yes he was forgiven, but he had to pay for his crimes.

Yes, good works are important to a Christian. God writes the laws in our hearts. It makes us want to do good. But make no mistake about it, no one can get to heaven on good works alone. God made that very clear. Jesus was perfect and when he died he took on every sin of the world. He was a blameless sinless sacrifice. He paid our debt for us.

Being a Christian means striving to do good works, but we still sin. We strive to be Christ-like(Christian), but we will never be perfect like he was. Only by accepting Christ as our savior can we enter the kingdom of God.

Check out the story I gave Lybra. Jesus said only by being born again in Him can one enter the kingdom of God.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe all of us in the last seconds of our life a get a final chance for salvation. Maybe we all get to heaven. <hr /></blockquote>

We all get the chance of one human life time to accept Jesus. Everyone reading this post, got a chance, everyone who knows the story of Jesus gets a chance. God presents the opprotunity, but you have to be the one to accept it. When you die, you die, its over. You made your choice. You either die and are saved by admiting your guilt and accepting Christ or you get judged by your works. Which means you will be judged on whether you lived a totally sinless life. The bible is clear no one but Jesus has ever or will ever lead a sinless life. No one.

The thing is God made is very, very easy. He did all the work! All he wants is for us to admit we need him, and that we aren't perfect. Many don't want to do this because of Pride. Pride is the most destructive sin ever. Its what caused Lucifer, the most beautiful and wisest angel, to become Satan. He tried to exalt himself above God. We do that everyday until we admit we need God.

[librazone]

Actually the big mistake we all make is in believing that god is connected to the worldly things.We wonder why bad things happen to good people and vice versa and we often think why should this be if there truly is a god.
Well I think we have to realize that god does not care about this world or the events of this world.God is neutral to it and god has nothing to do with the wordly things.So what happens here is irrelevant to god.
It states this in John I believe ...."Love not the world for he who loves the world cannot love the Father."
But if one is to gain the kingdom of god then one must make the choice in their own life of how they will be in this world...of how they will live...in their egos(satanic) or in their neutral soul selves(Christ).
Every last one of us must be born again ... we must remove the satanic egos which we have developed during our time in this world. When we live in our egos we are the sons of satan.When we live in our soul selves we are the sons of god.

[President Wilson]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>
Rev. 1:3, says straight up that a special blessing is giving to those that study prophecy.
<hr /></blockquote>

That is very true. God wants us to meditate on his word, and when we study his word, and seek his spirit he will give us both understanding, and guidance. One of the main reasons we are blessed in prophesy is that no scripture in the bible is in and of itself. Every scripture is contingent on our knowledge of every book in the bible. Which is one of the reasons Paul says to Timothy

[ QUOTE ]
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. <hr /></blockquote>

The fact of the matter is that it takes effort. But when you can see Jesus before your face always, any effort pails in comparision to the grace he has given us. And delving into prophesy, and studying the word in depth has more blessings and rewards than are imagionable.

[coolrock]

cool updates on the post Old School!

[Venom]

Yes excellent updates! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

No problem guys!
There will be more to come!
I'm going to put up the vision of Daniel and the other 3 seals, then go from there!

Stay tuned!

[oes]

Very good, Oldschool!! God's word says- study to show thyself aproved, and you certainly have been doing that. God Bless you and all who study God's word. Keep it going.

[Venom]

[ QUOTE ]
God's word says- study to show thyself approved <hr /></blockquote>

That's right! As JW pointed out earlier let Gods word interpret Gods word./forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Keep up the good work oes. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

Venom! That is one of my favorite series of chapters!

Man thinks he can judge God, but when we stand before him our "knowldege" will be nothing!

[ QUOTE ]
Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [1] shouted for joy?

8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [2] ?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

<hr /></blockquote>

WHo are we to judge God? We are his creation that he loves.
That should be enough!

Life isn't always easy. But just look at Job, he suffered so bad, yet he never rebuked God! My grandfather suffered pure agony, until he died of cancer. Yet he never rebuked God! Now they are both in paradise!

[Venom]

Job 1:20-22
20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. 22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Daniel 3:8-18
14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true,O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? 15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands? 16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Acts 5:26-42
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

These are some pretty interesting attitudes in the face of adversity. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[oes]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: venom:</font><hr>41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh to be counted worthy to suffer for His name. What an awesome passage. How many of us are willing to suffer for Christ. Or to be like Job in his distress, could we stand up to the pain? Certainly something to ponder. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

That's why Acts is my favorite book!
Its the greatest revival of all time!
The way Christianity spread so fast in the apostic age is mind boggling!
This is my favorite part!

[ QUOTE ]
Saul's Conversion

1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
6"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." <hr /></blockquote>

I feel honored to have my middle name be Paul. He's my favorite apostle and he came from being a man bent on the destruction of Christianity to writing half the new testament! Awesome!

I also love the story of the fiery furnace!
I really like when the king looks in to the fiery furnace which he place Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego into and sees a fourth person! I believe this to be none other than Jesus himself!

[Tani]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: ***********:</font><hr>I've always been confused about dying and judgement. It's like, if there is just ONE big judgement, then where are everyone's souls until then? In limbo somewhere? Or is each person judged as soon as they die?<hr /></blockquote>

Krypto, you raise a couple of very interesting questions here -- "What is Judgment Day?" and "When will it be?"

I hope the following information helps. It's from a 1991 Bible-based journal I have:

<font color="purple">Judgment Day--A Time of Hope!

If the idea of judgment day frightens you, why not examine what the Bible says about it? For example, is it true that when God executes judgment on sinners, they are cast into hellfire?

Well, the first recorded instance of divine judgment was right at the beginning of human history. Adam and Eve had the opportunity of living forever on a paradise earth. (Genesis 1:26-28; 2:7-9, 15-25) They sinned, however, and came under God's adverse judgment. The result? God withdrew the gift of life. In other words, they died. God told them: "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."--Genesis 3:16-19.

This was a severe judgment, but it was just. And it certainly did not involve hellfire. When Adam and Eve died, they returned to the dust. They ceased to exist. The Bible nowhere suggests that a part of Adam or of any other human survived death to be tormented somewhere for all eternity. Rather, we read: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."--Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Did you know that the Bible says this? Did you know, too, that the Bible never uses the expression "immortal soul"? Instead, it says: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4, King James Version) This is fully in harmony with the Bible principle: "The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23, KJ) This rule affects all of us. All of us are descendants of sinful Adam, so all of us sin and receive the wages of sin, death. As the Bible says: "By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12, KJ) The Day of Judgment is a key part of God's arrangement to save us from this situation.

The Basis for Judgment Day
According to the Bible, it was almost 2,000 years ago that God laid the basis for what will happen on Judgment Day. This was when Jesus came to earth and offered his perfect human life in our behalf. Jesus himself explained: "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."--John 3:16.

If we exercise faith in Jesus, we benefit from his sacrifice even now in a spiritual way. God forgives our sins and allows us to approach him. (John 14:6; 1 John 2:1, 2) But we are still imperfect, sinners, and as such, we still get physically sick and eventually die. We do not yet have the everlasting life that Jesus promised. This will come as a result of Judgment Day.

The Day of Judgment
The apostle John saw a vision of Judgment Day, and he described it as follows: "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."--Revelation 20:11, 12, KJ.

Yes, according to John's vision, Judgment Day will be presided over by God himself. But someone else is involved. The apostle Paul explained: "[God] hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained." (Acts 17:31, KJ) Who was that man? Jesus, who himself said: "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." (John 5:22, KJ) So Jesus will be God's appointed Judge on Judgment Day.
This is good news for humans. The Gospels reveal Jesus to be a person of great compassion. He is not haughty or demanding but "mild-tempered and lowly in heart." (Matthew 11:29; 14:14; 20:34) We are happy to be in the hands of such a judge.

When Will It Be?
When, though, is the Day of Judgment? Revelation says it will be when "the earth and the heaven [have] fled away." This reminds us of the apostle Peter's words: "The heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men." (2 Peter 3:7) Is the literal earth to be burned up? No, the Bible is clear on this point. The literal earth will never be destroyed. "The earth . . . [will] not be removed for ever." (Psalm 104:5, KJ) The context of Peter's words shows that it is the present ungodly world system of things that is to be destroyed. Ungodly men, not the planet Earth, will perish.--John 12:31; 14:30; 1 John 5:19.

These ungodly men will be destroyed at what the Bible calls the battle of Armageddon--which, as this magazine has often shown, will take place soon. (Revelation 16:14, 16) Afterward, Satan himself will be abyssed and prevented from interfering with humanity for a thousand years, and this thousand years is the actual duration of Judgment Day. (Revelation 19:17-20:3) What happens to the faithful when the ungodly men perish at Armageddon? They survive right into Judgment Day. We read: "The blameless are the ones that will be left over in [the earth]. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth."--Proverbs 2:21, 22.

In support of this, the Bible tells of "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" that would appear on earth before Armageddon. These "come out of the great tribulation"; in other words, they survive the end of this ungodly world just as Noah survived the end of the world of his day. (Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Peter 2:5) Did you know that this international great crowd of active Christians exists even now? These hope to survive the great tribulation and live forever on earth. Their existence is a sure evidence of the nearness of Judgment Day.

Who Will Be Judged?
This great crowd will be judged on Judgment Day. But they will not be alone. John's account continues: "The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:13, KJ) Here is further proof that people do not suffer forever in hell. If hell gives up those dead in it, how can anyone be there for all eternity? In fact, the Bible hell is the common grave of mankind, where the dead remain unconscious awaiting a resurrection. On Judgment Day, hell is to be completely emptied of its dead.--Ecclesiastes 9:10.

Who will be resurrected from the dead on Judgment Day? The apostle Paul said: "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15, KJ) Hence, faithful servants of God, "the just," will be resurrected. But so will countless others, "the unjust." Evidently, the resurrection will embrace all those who have died and are still in the grave--with the exception of any whose sins were so serious that God has already judged them totally unworthy of life.--Matthew 12:31.

The Judgment
What, though, happens to the great crowd of survivors and the resurrected ones on Judgment Day? The Bible says: "The dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." This is a time of scrutiny. All who are willing to act according to "those things written in the books"--evidently God's requirements for mankind at that time--will be written up in "the book of life." (Revelation 20:12, KJ) They will be on the way to gaining everlasting life!

Then, at last, Christ's sacrificial death will bring physical benefits! Those listed in the book of life at that time will no longer sink into sickness and death. Rather, they will gradually be restored to human perfection, with the everlasting life promised to those who exercise faith in Jesus. What a remarkable prospect! Nevertheless, some will evidently refuse to obey "those things written in the books." What happens to them? They do not gain eternal life. Instead, the scripture says: "Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."--Revelation 20:15, KJ.

Is this the hellfire Christendom speaks about? No, for in the preceding verse, we read: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14, KJ) If hell is cast into the lake of fire, the lake cannot itself be hellfire. Moreover, death is not something concrete that can be picked up and hurled somewhere. So the lake of fire must be symbolic. Of what? The Bible says: "This is the second death." When death and Hades are hurled into the lake of fire, they "die," cease to exist. Similarly, rebellious humans who end up there die, or cease to exist. This, though, is the second death, without hope of a resurrection.

Judgment Day--A Time of Hope
So when we think of Judgment Day, we should not be terrified or disgusted. Judgment Day is a time of hope, a time to restore to mankind the everlasting life that Adam lost. Listen to the blessings it will bring to those judged faithful: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."--Revelation 21:3, 4.

By the end of the thousand-year Judgment Day, faithful humans from all parts of the earth will finally be perfect. They will have "come to life" in the fullest sense, and Judgment Day will have achieved its purpose. (Revelation 20:5) Then, the Bible says, Satan will be allowed access to mankind for one last time. (Revelation 20:3, 7-10) Those who resist him this final time will enjoy the complete fulfillment of the Bible's promise: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."--Psalm 37:29.

What a wonderful provision Judgment Day is! And how remarkable that we can prepare for it even now, by studying the Bible, learning God's will, and applying this divine will in our lives! No wonder the psalmist expressed joy at the thought of God's judgment when he wrote: "Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be joyful. Let the sea thunder and that which fills it. Let the open field exult and all that is in it. At the same time let all the trees of the forest break out joyfully before Jehovah. For he has come; for he has come to judge the earth."--Psalm 96:11-13.
</font color>

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey Tani,
Thanks for the read!

I would like to clear up a few things though...

[ QUOTE ]
The Bible nowhere suggests that a part of Adam or of any other human survived death to be tormented somewhere for all eternity.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is actually talked about quit a bit. For instance Jesus talked about it in one of his sermons..

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



However on judgement day, God will tell the wicked to depart from him into everlasting punishment that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Where the "worm dieth not", and "there will be gnashing of teeth". But worse than all that it will be existence where God will not be. He will totally seperate himself from those who would not except his only hope for salvation. Jesus Christ.

Those who believe in Jesus won't be judged for their sins. They have been forgiven. Jesus took our blame and our death on the cross. We will be judged and rewarded for our works.

Also, Paul tells us we will judge men and angles(fallen angel).

[ QUOTE ]
The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

[/ QUOTE ]

It will die in spiritual death. A spirit can only come to life when we accpet Jesus. Other wise we are spritiually dead. Jesus calls those who don't accept him, taking part in the second death.

[ QUOTE ]
In support of this, the Bible tells of "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" that would appear on earth before Armageddon

[/ QUOTE ]

This actually comes after Armageddon, at the Great white throne judgment, where those who died without Jesus will be raised to be judged a final time. Armageddon is the final battle in which the anti-christ will try to destroy Israel along with all the nations of the earth. Jesus will supernaturally intervene and throw the antichrist right into the lake of fire, and throw satan in the abyss for 1000 years.

<font color="red">11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

</font>

[ QUOTE ]
Judgment Day is a time of hope, a time to restore to mankind the everlasting life that Adam lost

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true for Believers, but for Un-believers it will be a time of eternal seperation from God. This will be the hardest thing Jesus will have to do. And I have no doubt the tears God is referring to being wiped from every eye, is his own tears when he has to tell his creation which he loves to depart form him into the place that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

See now, this is what happens everytime I try to delve in and really understand everything the Bible has to say. I get even more confused.

[ QUOTE ]
Did you know that this international great crowd of active Christians exists even now? These hope to survive the great tribulation and live forever on earth. Their existence is a sure evidence of the nearness of Judgment Day.<hr /></blockquote>

Okay, I thought I just read that Christians will be taken by the Great Rapture so that they DON'T have to go thru the Tribulation?

[ QUOTE ]
Nevertheless, some will evidently refuse to obey "those things written in the books." What happens to them? They do not gain eternal life. Instead, the scripture says: "Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."--Revelation 20:15, KJ.
<hr /></blockquote>

Okay, so those who died as sinners, or in other words not having accepted Jesus get a second chance? If that's true then you know all the non-believers are gonna say, "I'll accept Him then when I get my second chance."

[ QUOTE ]
John's account continues: "The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:13, KJ) Here is further proof that people do not suffer forever in hell. If hell gives up those dead in it, how can anyone be there for all eternity? In fact, the Bible hell is the common grave of mankind, where the dead remain unconscious awaiting a resurrection. On Judgment Day, hell is to be completely emptied of its dead.--Ecclesiastes 9:10.<hr /></blockquote>

Okay so apparently there is more than one place you can go when you die to await Judgement Day? And from what I gather you are just unconcious when you die, just as you were before you were ever born. Hard to imagine ceasing to exist but this is what I'm getting out of this. You just cease to exist until Judgement Day when you're resurrected and judged and at that time, unbelievers get a second chance?

I guess at funerals when they say the person passed away and is now with God isn't really true then. In reality they have just ceased to exist or remain in an unconscious state, however you want to look at it. I suppose it's a lot nicer to say they are with God than to say, okay, they are just unconscious now til Judgement Day.

I thought maybe since I was older that I'd start understanding what the Bible says better but I think I'm just as confused as I was in High School when I last really delved in and tried to understand it. It's frustrating cause I really want to understand. I'll read something and not know what it means unless someone else explains how they are interpreting it to me which is dangerous in itself. I could have gotten caught up in a cult because of it but since they were telling me interpretations which went totally against the meaning I was brought up with, I couldn't believe it and ended up calling my dad up on the phone to consult with him. They ended up getting me all upset over it. Anyway, so when I was in HS I had asked my dad how I'm supposed to understand what the Bible means and he tells me the Holy Spirit will reveal the meaning to me. Well, for some reason that's never happened. I just get confused trying to understand it. /forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Venom]

Just to clarrify where we would go if we were to die today:

Matthew 22:31-33
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

There is no soul sleeping, God is the God of the living.

2 Corinthians 5:1-11
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When we die, we are not dormant for thousands of years. To be absent from our flesh is to be with Christ.

And as the example old school gave, we see father Abraham kicking it with Lazarus in heaven.

And again, you see Moses and Elias talking with Jesus.

So as Paul says, "to live is Christ, to die is gain. "

[Adam Knowlden]

LOL! Krypto I know it can be confusing!

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I thought I just read that Christians will be taken by the Great Rapture so that they DON'T have to go thru the Tribulation?
<hr /></blockquote>

There will be those who get saved during the tribulation. WHo didn't know Christ before the rapture. But if someone is waiting for the Tribulation to accept Jesus that's foolish.

WHen you die, your spirit goes to be with the Lord or in Hell if you don't know Jesus.

On the rapture we will be resurrected back into our physical bodies that God will ressurect from the earth.

Those who died without knowing God will be resurrected after satan is defeated. To be judged a final time before there eternity begins. They will be judged on their works, which is futile.

Okay, so anybody, is it just me or does it seem as though the Bible contradicts itself? Why is it that everyone can find verses which supposedly answer my questions but yet they are totally different verses giving a totally different answer to the same question? It's like the Bible is one big book that you have to decipher first and figure out which verses are supposed to answer what questions and what each verse is REALLY refering to. Every single time, this is what happens to me, I try to find answers and all I get is more confused cause it seems you can find several totally different verses to answer the same question but yet they all have a different answer! So what's the problem I wonder? Are we using the WRONG verses when answering certain questions? Were the verses referring to something OTHER than the question I'm asking? Are we just interpreting it wrong? Getting the wrong meaning out of it? Geesh! My head is spinning! http://www.plauder-smilies.de/nut.gif

[Venom]

Acts 8:26-40
26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Sometimes we tend to make things more difficult than they are. God is very logical, you asked for wisdom and understanding, and he has placed it in front of you. Just like this man from Ethiopia. So all you have to do is ask away! You dont have to be confused. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Venom]

Its really not. As Paul says a worker need not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. If you don't take every single scripture as a whole you will never understand it.

Its like if I quote you saying, "you're an idiot" and I get offended. But you really said people used to say to me "you're an idiot." You see? I took one portion of what you said and interpreted it my self.

You cant do that and understand the word of God. If you take it as a whole, you will see that nothing is contradictory, down to the very last detail it is accurate! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif For example the bible predicts Jesus coming, birth, death, resurrection, and in-depth details in it, and yet not one sentence or verse contradicts it. Even though there were hundreds of different authors in completely different decades. You just have to get into it!

[Venom]

2 Peter 3: 1 - 18
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

As Peter states here, Paul was a master at interpreting scripture. In fact he was taught his doctrine directly from the Lord! But many in these days saw that Paul wrote in-depth, and used the entire bible as a whole. Seeing this they wrested upon one statement or phrase they were confused about and didn't show themselves a worker approved.

Lets use another example of those who did:

Acts 17:10-15
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Ok, we have two opposite polls here, one time Paul says something hard to be understood and the people rest on it, and don't improve one bit, but instead digress. But in the other situation these Berea'ns, were preached to by this same Paul, and by his same doctrine, and what did they do? Searched the scriptures daily! And you know what they found out? That everything he said was right! And that not one piece of scripture was contradictory or out of place.

Be like the Berea'ns and plant yourself firmly in the word of truth. But you cant say this is confusing and just leave it at that. As the Berea'ns did search the scriptures daily, until you come to the same conclusion as we have, they are divinely inspired!

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>
The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (

It will die in spiritual death. A spirit can only come to life when we accpet Jesus. Other wise we are spritiually dead. Jesus calls those who don't accept him, taking part in the second death.<hr /></blockquote>

Okay, then where does all this weeping and nashing of teeth come in? I thought unbelievers will suffer eternity in Hell? Now you're saying unbelievers' spirits will just cease to exist? Which is it?

[ QUOTE ]
In support of this, the Bible tells of "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" that would appear on earth before Armageddon

This actually comes after Armageddon, at the Great white throne judgment, where those who died without Jesus will be raised to be judged a final time. Armageddon is the final battle in which the anti-christ will try to destroy Israel along with all the nations of the earth. Jesus will supernaturally intervene and throw the antichrist right into the lake of fire, and throw satan in the abyss for 1000 years.<hr /></blockquote>

So these statements:

[ QUOTE ]
In support of this, the Bible tells of "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" that would appear on earth before Armageddon. These "come out of the great tribulation"; in other words, they survive the end of this ungodly world just as Noah survived the end of the world of his day. (Revelation 7:9-17; 2 Peter 2:5) Did you know that this international great crowd of active Christians exists even now? These hope to survive the great tribulation and live forever on earth. Their existence is a sure evidence of the nearness of Judgment Day.<hr /></blockquote>

are incorrect then?

[ QUOTE ]
Judgment Day is a time of hope, a time to restore to mankind the everlasting life that Adam lost

This is true for Believers, but for Un-believers it will be a time of eternal seperation from God. This will be the hardest thing Jesus will have to do. And I have no doubt the tears God is referring to being wiped from every eye, is his own tears when he has to tell his creation which he loves to depart form him into the place that was prepared for the devil and his angels. <hr /></blockquote>

So you are saying the unbelievers DON'T get a second chance during the Judgement Day?

[Adam Knowlden]

Weeping and gnashing of teeth are things that will happen in hell. The weeping will because hell is eternal seperation from God.

ALL SOULS ARE ETERNAL! You seem to be confused by that mostly. There is no such thing as a limbo type of state where you die and go nowhere. Like you're unconscious. When you die your spirit either goes to heaven or hell. On judgement day of the wicked there bodies will be raised back to life and they will be judged according to their works.
During the Rapture Believers who are alive at the time of the rapture will be instantly transformed. Believers who are dead will be raised back to life like Jesus was. They will get new bodies and their souls which were in heaven will go back into their new bodies God raised from the dead. This time though we will have bodies like Adam and Eve did before they sinned. Perfect, immortal bodies.

[ QUOTE ]
Now you're saying unbelievers' spirits will just cease to exist? Which is it <hr /></blockquote>

Jesus calls the second death is just a death of the soul. Meaning without Jesus our souls are spiritually dead. It doesn't mean they won't exist anymore, just that they will be eternally apart from God. In essence dead because they are seperated from their creator.

The first death is death in your physical body, the second death is only death if you are an unbeliver. If you believe Jesus died for your sins, you will have eternal life with God in paradise. Either way your soul never ceases to exist, its just a matter of where it will be at for eternity.

[ QUOTE ]
So you are saying the unbelievers DON'T get a second chance during the Judgement Day?
<hr /></blockquote>

If you die witout knowing Jesus, its over. One human lifetime is the only chance you get.

If you die without Jesus you will be judged according to your works. That is judgement day. Being Judged on your works. God is clear all have sinned and no one can get to heaven on their works. So on judgement day the time for second chances is over. You made your choice when you were alive. You are now spritually dead. Seperated from Jesus for eternity. That is true hell. It goes beyond the fire, its seperation from God.

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>
If you die witout knowing Jesus, its over. One human lifetime is the only chance you get.

If you die without Jesus you will be judged according to your works. That is judgement day. Being Judged on your works. God is clear all have sinned and no one can get to heaven on their works. So on judgement day the time for second chances is over. You made your choice when you were alive. You are now spritually dead. Seperated from Jesus for eternity. That is true hell. It goes beyond the fire, its seperation from God.<hr /></blockquote>

The info Tani posted made it sound like unbelievers got a second chance, at least that was my understanding of it.

Thanks guys, things are clear now. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/xyxthumbs.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

No problem Krypto.
You get all the chances in the world, but when you die, its over.

Here's some things I do that have really helped me understand the bible.

1. Ask God for help.

Pray before you read the bible! Its the words of God, so he can make them clearer to you! Ask him to open your mind and understand the bible when you read it!
This is the best way to start out.

2. Get either the New Internation version or the New American Standard bible. Both are awesome translations of the King James bible. Mine has a study guide for every verse. I know the king James can be hard to understand.

3. Go to church. OR a bible study group. I prefer a non-denominational church, but the choice is yours. Either way ask God to help you find a church and visit one on Sunday. Find a good one and attend regularly. If you're busy on Sunday try to find a bible study group. People who are experinced can explain the stuff you're confused on. I could explain this stuff much better in person. By showing you the verses and explaining. Its harder to do over the computer, so try to go to church, It'll really help you out!

4. Print off all these prophecy posts, and study them. Also, go to this site www.christiananswers.net (http://www.christiananswers.net), that site is really kool and will really help you out! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Megawacko]

If men were angels, no government would be necessary.- James Madison

[BB1]

Hey OldSchool or anyone else,

What are your thoughts on this? I have been debating this in my mind for awhile.
I know that the 7 churches represent church ages and yes I believe we are in the Laodicea. Do you think it is possible for them to exist even today?
For example in my studies every church wants to claim to be Philadelphia. You and I know this is not possible.
I want to get this straight I am not targeting a specific denomination. I prefer to think of it as an individuals walk with Christ.

Here are some things I have been thinking about.
2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

The individual would turn away from false apostles. First love is of course the Messiah. Remember Branch Davidians. Using the gift of discernment for what is truth and what is false.

My only stumbling block is obtaining information on who were the Nicolaitans.

Think about the 10 virgins and the seven gifts and see how I am trying to tie this in together. Half of the virgins were prepared the other half were not. Perhaps I am making this more complicated or maybe I am on to something. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I could go on about the other Churches but I think you get my meaning. At least I hope so.

This probably could go into another post but here goes anyway. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What are your thoughts on pre-tribulation, post tribulation and the other theories on the tribulation?

Keep them coming and when I have time I will contribute what I have learned. Oh yeah and correct me if I am wrong but always do it with love and of course back it up with the WORD. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tani]

Thanks, OldSchool. I appreciate your listening to what I have to say. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif I think this thread is great!

I have few more comments...

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>
[ QUOTE ]
The Bible nowhere suggests that a part of Adam or of any other human survived death to be tormented somewhere for all eternity. <hr /></blockquote>

It is actually talked about quit a bit. For instance Jesus talked about it in one of his sermons..

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">The passage you're referring to is called "The Rich Man and Lazarus" and most Bible scholars agree that it is a parable -- a story designed to get people to reason on a subject.

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a "parable in story form without reference to any historical personage." If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one's fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The "rich man" represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.--Acts 5:33; 7:54.</font>


<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr> [ QUOTE ]
The soul that sinneth, it shall die." ( <hr /></blockquote>

It will die in spiritual death. A spirit can only come to life when we accpet Jesus. Other wise we are spritiually dead. Jesus calls those who don't accept him, taking part in the second death. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?
Gen. 2:7: "...God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." (Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person.) (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered "soul" is ne'phesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read "being." NE says "creature." Kx reads "person."

1 Cor. 15:45: "It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.) (The Greek word here translated "soul" is the accusative case of psy·khe'. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read "soul." RS, NE, and TEV say "being."

1 Pet. 3:20: "In Noah's days . . . a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water." (The Greek word here translated "souls" is psy·khai', the plural form of psy·khe'. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx also read "souls." JB and TEV say "people"; RS, NE, and NAB use "persons."

Gen. 9:5: "Besides that, your blood of your souls [or, "lives"; Hebrew, from ne'phesh] shall I ask back." (Here the soul is said to have blood.)

Josh. 11:11: "They went striking every soul [Hebrew, ne'phesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword." (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)
</font>

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr> [ QUOTE ]
In support of this, the Bible tells of "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" that would appear on earth before Armageddon <hr /></blockquote>

This actually comes after Armageddon, at the Great white throne judgment, where those who died without Jesus will be raised to be judged a final time. Armageddon is the final battle in which the anti-christ will try to destroy Israel along with all the nations of the earth. Jesus will supernaturally intervene and throw the antichrist right into the lake of fire, and throw satan in the abyss for 1000 years.<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">My studies of the scriptures have shown me that Armageddon is the final stage of the great tribulation -- God's war against the wicked at the end of the last days (very soon). So I agree that the great crowd comes out of the great tribulation after Armageddon, but before the 1000 years begins. During the 1000-year reign of Christ, those of the great crowd who survive Armageddon will be gradually brought back to physical and spiritual perfection (the way Adam &amp; Eve were in the garden of Eden), and the vast majority of people who have died since Adam &amp; Eve sinned will be resurrected onto a paradise Earth. It's a that point that Satan is let out of the abyss he's been in for 1000 years in order to test perfected mankind. Revelation says that, unfortunately, many will rebel at that time. But those that pass the test of their integrity will be given everlasting life.</font>

[Tani]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: ***********:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>
If you die witout knowing Jesus, its over. One human lifetime is the only chance you get.

If you die without Jesus you will be judged according to your works. That is judgement day. Being Judged on your works. God is clear all have sinned and no one can get to heaven on their works. So on judgement day the time for second chances is over. You made your choice when you were alive. You are now spritually dead. Seperated from Jesus for eternity. That is true hell. It goes beyond the fire, its seperation from God.<hr /></blockquote>

The info Tani posted made it sound like unbelievers got a second chance, at least that was my understanding of it.

Thanks guys, things are clear now. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/xyxthumbs.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="green">Hi Krypto -- this thread is moving so fast, it's hard to respond in a timely manner... /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

My understanding from my studies is that, YES, at the time God brings judgment on this wicked system of things, those who have refused to respond to God's invitation to serve him will be destroyed. "This takes into account that it is righteous on God's part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.-- 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8

But there's a difference between the unrighteous and the wicked. The apostle Paul looked forward to the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. "...and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."--Acts 24:15

What about countless billions who may never have come into contact with God's people throughout the ages (first the ancient Israelites, and then the Christians)?

Here's another quote from a Bible reference book:

Both those who lived in harmony with God's righteous ways and people who, out of ignorance, did unrighteous things will be resurrected. The Bible does not answer all our questions as to whether certain specific individuals who have died will be resurrected. But we can be confident that God, who knows all the facts, will act impartially, with justice tempered by mercy that does not ignore his righteous standards. Compare Genesis 18:25.</font color>

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey Tani!

Well, I defeneitly think there is a literal hell.

In Mark 9, notice that the Lord Jesus repeats three times about Hell, "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." And it seems there is some reason for saying that it need not necessarily be a real fire, or that this is a literal, real worm that is referred to here. But it is interesting to note that one of the Bible words used to describe Hell is Gehenna, and that referred to the garbage dump of the valley of Hen, where there was fire constantly burning, and the worm and maggots never lacked something to eat. They were always alive, always in existence.

Will there literally be a burning fire in Hell? The fact of the matter is that if this is just symbolic language, it's bad enough for me, and certainly the reality will be worse than the symbol. And if the Lord is simply using symbolic language, how much more terrible must the reality be?

You don't need fire to be in pain.

Now, I don't think physical suffering is the worse kind of suffering. We know that when Jesus was on the cross He took and an awful lot of abuse. He was spit on and mocked. They pushed sharp thorns down into His head, shredded His back with the cat-o'-nine-tails, drove the nails in and the spear. He was even deserted by His own disciples. The physical suffering was great. They even plucked the beard out of His face. But you never hear the Lord Jesus complaining about any of that. Rather, the peak of His agony and His suffering is when He cries out, "My God, my God why has thou forsaken me?"

The real pinnacle of suffering for Jesus was to be God-forsaken and to be left alone. That hurt more than thorns and thistles and spears and nails and whips and spit and all the rest--to be God-forsaken.

I honestly don't think that those of us in America can appreciate or understand that as much as some missionaries who have gone out to some of the most primitive parts of the world, where some have reported that the spiritual darkness is so heavy you feel you could cut it with a knife. The presence of the Demonic and the Devil and the powers of darkness are felt keenly. We can't really understand what it would be like to be in a place where the hard Satanic atmosphere has not been broken, shattered, or in some ways penetrated through the persistent preaching of the Gospel.

When we read in the Old Testament, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), really the idea of the word is that it shall be separated. It is not non-existence or annihilation, but rather it is separation from God.


Physical death is the separation of the soul/spirit from the body.

Spiritual death is the separation of the soul(memory, will, emotions)/spirit from God.

When Jesus said, "why has thou forsaken me?" that was the height of the suffering.


In Hades, what do people remember?

Returning to Luke 16, and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, I'd like to mention that there is no indication here that this is a parable. It doesn't start out like a parable, but says, there was a rich man, and a man by the name of Lazarus, specifically named. Parables don't usually take that turn. And the one was carried to Abraham's bosom and the other one was a lost soul who went to a place of punishment and torment. But I want you to notice in this story that when the rich man was in eternity without God, without hope, his memory was very much alive. He said, "Send Lazarus to give me a little relief." At another point he said, "Send him to tell my five brothers, lest they also come to this place of torment."

Every once in a while, you'll hear somebody say concerning some member of their family whom they know is unsaved, "Well, if he's gone to Hell, or she's gone to Hell, I want to go there and be with them." I've got news for you--they don't want you there. The rich man said, "Go tell my five brothers, lest they also come to this horrible place." He got very missionary-minded and very evangelistic a little late in the game.

What did the Lord say to him? "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime had thy good things." I don't really think we need to talk about fire. I think one of the most horrible, terrible features of eternity without Christ would be to have your faculty of memory--to remember the gospel services you sat through and kept saying "no" to Christ--to remember your hardness and coldness of heart to somebody that was a testimony--to remember your indifference--to remember programs and meetings in which you emotionally were stirred and maybe tears came to your eyes and a lump to your throat, and you said "No!" to Christ. I can't think of anything that would be more horrible than that. "Son, remember."

You don't need fire to be in pain. You don't need physical suffering. Just to be God-forsaken--separated from God and all that is good and holy and to have your memories along with it. To remember a mother and dad who prayed for you, who tried to lead you right. You took the bit in your mouth and decided to go your own way. You wouldn't listen. A horrible thing memory can be if we're outside of Christ. "Son, remember." And evidently, man in eternity could see, he could remember. He didn't need to have fire to make him uncomfortable.

I want to continue with the discussion on hell and prove that there is such a place even if the word "hell" never once appeared in the Bible. There are many today who say that the words "hades" and "gehenna" always mean the grave---period. That is just not so. But even if it were so, we could prove there is such a place as hell by the many expressions throughout the New Testament which indicate, through the terminology used, that such a place exists---though it is not called hell. For instance, Matthew 3:12 states: "Christ) will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." This speaks about sinners at the end of time. What is this unquenchable fire if there is no hell? Matthew 13:42, 50: "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." What is this furnace of fire if there is no hell? In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says to those on the left hand: "Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire." Matthew 25:46: "these shall go away into everlasting punishment" So there must be a place where this everlasting punishment takes place.

Mark 3:29: "he is in danger of eternal ****ation." Not eternal sleep in a grave, but eternal ****ation. John 3:36: "he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." The abiding wrath continues beyond the grave, for it is forever. John 5:28, 29: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation." If the grave is hell and is all the ****ation mankind receives, why raise them out of the grave for the resurrection of ****ation if they are already in the place of ****ation? Simple logic proves again that it cannot be the grave, but the resurrection of ****ation is for a place after the grave, called hell.

II Thessalonians 1:8,9: "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord." Hell is a terrible place! Hebrews 6:2: "&amp;the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." This resurrection would be unnecessary if he already had his judgment in the grave. Hebrews 6:6,8: "if they shall fall away"---what then?---verse 8: "whose end (or ending, consummation) is to be burned." But where, if there is no hell, if the grave ends it all?

Hebrews 9:27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but (there is more) after this the judgment." II Peter 2:9: "The Lord knoweth how to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." The grave does not end it. Jude, verse 7: "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude, verse 23: "others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire." Revelation 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and forever: and they have no rest day nor night." Revelation 21:8 says, "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone"

So, you see, here are a number of expressions (there are 132 of these in the New Testament) proving that even if the word "hades" or "gehenna" meant the grave, you would still have 132 verses which indicate there is something besides the grave. Also, if you were to make an alphabetical study of all the following words, you would have to believe there is something beyond the grave: accursed, anguish, Beelzebub, blackness of darkness, bottomless pit, burn, condemn, cursed, ****ation, darkness, demons, destruction, devil, end, eternal, everlasting, fearful, fiery, fire, flame, forever, furnace, harvest, indignation, judgment, Lucifer, perdition, perish, punish, unquenchable, vengeance, wail, weep, wicked, and wrath. My friend, do not tell me the grave ends it all. That is positively ridiculous in the light of the Holy Scriptures.

Luke, Chapter 16, verse 22 onward, says, "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abrahams bosom." That is what it means to be ready. But Jesus preaches both sides of the subject, so He continues, "the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you, there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my fathers house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

The Bible teaches many facts concerning hell. First of all, it is a place of endless life. This man had eyes to see, for he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. He had a voice to cry out, for he said: "Father Abraham." He had a throat that could become dry and parched, for he said: "Send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue..."" He also had ears to hear because Abraham speaks back and says, "Son, remember." I know it is a place of life because he says in verse 28 of that sixteenth chapter, "send him to my fathers house: For I have five brethren" (what is the reason?) "that he may testify (witness, preach) unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment." He said, in effect, "I do not want them to come to this place." There is no amount of salvation that will keep you from the grave. The greatest preachers of all time went to the grave because being saved does not keep you from the coffin. But the rich man said: "If my brothers hear the message and get converted, get saved, they will not come to this place." Why? Because it is not the grave, it is the place after death, called hell. When a man is saved, there is therefore now no condemnation, no hell, to them which are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

Secondly, hell is a place of unsatisfied desires. This man had everything he wanted on earth, because he had a huge bankroll. He could spread his table with the delicacies of life, could travel the world, could wear the most fashionable clothing of the day. But now he has died and his money is left behind on the earth. All the money in the world is not going to do you any good when you are dead. This man could not even buy a trickle of water. The Bible says in I Timothy 6:10: "the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." Not money---the love of money.

Third, hell is a place of untold suffering. Four times in the text of Luke 16 we read that there was torment. I believe God, regardless of what anyone else says. Verses 23-25 say: "in (hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus, evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." The fourth reference is in verses 27 and 28: "send (Lazarus) to my father's house (Why?): For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This is why Revelation 14:11 says: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night" The atheist, Voltaire, said on his deathbed: "Oh, doctor, give me six more months." He said, "I cannot even give you six hours." Voltaire, so often quoted in our universities, went into eternity crying, "God, help me! Christ, save me! It is hell to be left alone." Some of us are not so atheistic when we come to the last few breaths of life. Some of you who mock God and laugh at Jesus Christ, the blood atonement, the resurrection, and the rest, will not laugh in a few more years when you are on your deathbed, drawing in the last few gasps of air. Hell is a place of untold suffering.

Fourth, hell is a place of ungodly associations. Right in the midst of those two tremendous chapters---Revelation 21 and 22---when God is describing the glories of heaven, He says, in effect, "Wait a minute. Some of you are going to miss it. Some of you are going to be in that lake of fire." Who are these people? Chapter 21, verse 8, of Revelation says: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Who? The fearful---the Greek word there is "the cowardly." They are afraid to make a decision for Christ. They are afraid of what their relatives, the neighbors, and the business people might say. They might be called idiot, fanatic, imbecile or moron. Because they are cowardly, they will not make their decision for Christ. The unbelieving are those who will not believe that Jesus is the Christ. "if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24). You cannot get to heaven without Jesus, and the unbeliever is one who has not believed in the Son of God. The Bible says that he that believeth on Christ is not condemned, but he believeth not in Christ is condemned already (John 3:18). The abominable, the murderers, the *****mongers, the sorcerers (this concerns drugs), idolaters, and all lairs shall have their part in the lake of fire.

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
What about countless billions who may never have come into contact with God's people throughout the ages (first the ancient Israelites, and then the Christians)?

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The traditional Christian position on this subject is that no one can or ever will be saved apart from Christ. Jesus Himself once made the following categorical statement: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6) Yet in the case of a native tribesman living deep in some remote African jungle who has never heard of Jesus Christ, what will God do--if He is, in fact, a just God?

Many theologians teach that "God will give eternal life to anyone who responds to His general revelation in nature and in conscience... [however this] doesn't mean that a person can be saved apart from Christ. It would be that the blood of Christ or the sacrifice of Christ was applied to that person even though he did not have any conscious knowledge of Christ." (as quoted from William Lane Craig in a debate held at Willow Creek Community Church, June 27, 1993). Romans chapters 1 and 2, referring to the general revelation of God in His creation, is often cited for this response. But this position can only be inferred--it is not explicitly stated anywhere in Scripture.

What actually happens to those who have not heard the gospel of Christ depends upon several factors.


It depends first of all (but not finally) on how they have responded to God's general revelation. In the case of those who have neglected or rejected such general revelation (no doubt the case with the vast majority of those who have never heard of Christ), they're lost, condemned for all eternity to a real hell. But note--they are not condemned for what they haven't heard. They are judged for what they have heard and rejected. In this sense, as R.C. Sproul rightly states, "there are no innocent people in the world."


In the case, however, of the one who has never heard of Christ, yet sincerely worships God as he knows Him, and lives consistently with moral law as he understands it, we do have some grounds (Acts 10 et al) to believe that God may be pleased to grant a further special revelation involving the Gospel of Christ Himself, which one would then, in turn, either accept or reject. Exactly how or when would God arrange for such a further revelation? Might I Peter 3:18-20 or 4:6 somehow correlate with Romans 2:16 here? The Scripture allows many such details to remain hidden, while being unequivocal about the fact that God will judge with perfect justice (Psalm 98:9).

Among other things, for instance, correct Biblical exegesis on this subject provides an unequaled incentive for the continued Christian mission of proclaiming th Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. As Romans 10:14 says, "How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"

I believe deep in the heart of all mankind, we know God exists. Unless we have totally hardened our heart to him.
If a native tribesman or pre-christ person acknowledges God to the best of his ability, Christ will spare him/her for his ignorance.

In old testament times, Israel was God's witness. And a great many outsiders saw this and worshipped Jehovah.

[Adam Knowlden]

There are many who believe in a heaven but who reject Gods Word concerning a place called hell. However, one cannot take the parts of the Bible that are pleasing to his limited mind and reject that which is unsuitable to him---it is all or nothing. Jesus said in Luke 16:22, "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abrahams bosom." That is heaven. Oh, is it not wonderful to be saved! The spiritualist used to sing, "Swing low, sweet chariot, coming for to carry me home; Swing low, sweet chariot, coming for to carry me home; I looked over Jordan, and what did I see, coming for to carry me home; A band of angels, coming after me, coming for to carry me home." D.L. Moody, on his deathbed, said: "heaven is opening, earth is receding, Jesus is calling, and the angels are coming." And that is what Christ said concerning the beggar who died prepared.

But Jesus preaches all the truth---He believed and preached both sides of the subject. He was not like some of these lopsided preachers today who say, "We believe everything the Bible has to say about heaven but reject what it has to say about hell." Let us be consistent! In Luke 16:22-24, Christ goes on with the other side of the subject: "the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." There are two places. Again, Jesus said in John 3:36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life (heaven); and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath (what a word!) of God abideth on him." Jesus said in John 6:47: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life (heaven)." But He also said in John 8:24: "I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins." Friend, that is eternal hell.

False religionists have hatched the "no hell" plot to gain adherence to their movement. Because multitudes---even 70 percent of the preachers---no longer believe or like to even consider that such a place exists, a new group can grow quickly if they will discount the claims of the Holy Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ by preaching pleasing platitudes which cater to rebellious minds. Romans 3:4 says, "let God be true, but every man a liar." I do not care if every human being or every preacher on earth says, "I do not believe it." As long as I can find it162 times in my New Testament alone---the Word of the Living God---I will believe it if I stand by myself in believing it. It is the Word of God---we must believe it!

A popular trend today is to take the Hebrew word "sheol" and the Greek words "hades" and "gehenna" and state that they all mean the grave, though they are translated "hell" in the Word of God in the majority of instances. Let us take the Old Testament Hebrew word "sheol." Why would God have to use this word to picture a grave when the Hebrew word "queber" logically depicts and portrays it? Consider the following five points:

The body never goes to sheol but goes to queber 37 times. Why? Because queber is the grave for bodies and sheol is the place for departed spirits.

Sheol is never on the face of the earth but queber is located there 32 times. Why? Because graves are on the earth. Sheol, the place for departed spirits, is in some other realm of God's creation.

Man never puts another man into sheol but he does put a man into queber 33 times. Why? Because man has the power to put other men into graves but he does not have the power to put souls into sheol.

Man never digs or makes a sheol but he makes and digs a queber six times. Why? Because man has the power to make a grave but he does not have the power to make a sheol for departed spirits.

Man never speaks of a man as touching sheol, but he touches queber five times. Why? Because, again, it is a grave on the earth and he has the power to touch it. But he has no power to do anything about sheol, the place for departed spirits.

Why would God have to use the word "sheol" when he has such a clear word in the Hebrew, "queber," depicting the grave?

To look at all the Old Testament instances individually would take months of study. Besides, Christ has brought to light life and immortality---that which has to do with a never dying soul. How? Through the Gospel, through the New Testament (II Timothy 1:10). Therefore, let us study the two Greek words in the New Testament---hades and gehenna---and see if they mean the grave or place of eternal suffering. You may ask, "Why did the Lord Jesus use two words---hades and gehenna? Are there two places?" Yes. You say, "Why?" Let me illustrate it this way: All of us know the difference between a local jail and a penitentiary. If a man is taken in a crime, he is not put into the penitentiary until he has had a trial. He is taken and locked up in the local jail, whether it be city or county, where he awaits his trial. When he has had his trial and is found guilty, he is transferred to the penitentiary. Get this next statement, for it is so important to a direct understanding of the Bible subject of hell. When Jesus uses the word hades, he is referring to the local jail, the place where the sinner is held until the judgment morning. Then, at the judgment day, all sinners come out of the local jail (hades), stand before the judge, are found guilty and are transferred to gehenna, the final penitentiary for these souls.

Let me also say that the term gehenna is synonymous with the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13,14 prove this: "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and (hades---that is the Greek word there) delivered up the dead." You see, the rich man in Luke 16:23 is in hades, a place of suffering, but not nearly the amount of suffering that he shall experience in the final penitentiary, gehenna, after the trial. So it says, "death and (hades) delivered up the dead." Why? They were judged. Then, death and hades were transferred to gehenna, the lake of fire. Again I say that hades is the local jail and gehenna is the final penitentiary. Any sinner who dies, even at this hour, does not go to gehenna, but to hades, where the rich man is found in Luke 16:23. He will come out from that place at the judgment day, meet Christ at the trial, and then be transferred to the last penitentiary of lost souls---gehenna.

I will give you the eleven instances Christ uses in the New Testament concerning hades:

Matthew 11:23: "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell." That is the Greek word hades, where the rich man of Luke 16:23 is found.

Matthew 16:18: "thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it."

Luke 10:15: "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell (hades)."

Luke 16:22, 23: "the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell (hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments." That is where all sinners go, where this one is found in Luke 16:23. They will stay there until the time of trial, will come out for the great judgment, and then will be transferred to gehenna, the last penitentiary.

Acts 2:27: "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades)"

Acts 2:31: "his soul was not left in hell (hades)"
I Corinthians 15:55: "O death (hades) where is thy victory?"

Revelation 1:18: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (hades) and of death."

Revelation 6:8: "Death, and hell (hades) followed with him&amp;#8230;"

Here is the text I presented earlier---Revelation 20:13, 14: "death and (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them;And death and (hades) were cast into the lake of fire&amp;." Why? They were judged; after they were judged, death and hades were cast into the final penitentiary---gehenna---synonymous with the lake of fire.

Gehenna differs from hades in that gehenna is a place where there are degrees of suffering. After one is judged, after he has been examined as to how much light he had, how often he heard the Gospel, how often he rejected, how great his sin was in rejecting this glorious message that Christ could save him, he is assigned his degree of punishment in the final penitentiary. Romans 2:5: "after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up (storest up, savest up) wrath against the day of wrath." You can actually store up wrath because gehenna will be the penitentiary. Gehenna is used twelve times:

Matthew 5:22: "whosoever shall say (to his brother), Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Let us put the cultist substitute there ---grave---for they say hell is the grave. Jesus would then be saying, "He shall be in danger of grave fire." That must be strange fire that goes on in the grave---I have never heard of it, have you? Jesus must not be talking about a grave.

Matthew 5:29, 30: "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that the whole body should be cast into hell (gehenna). And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell (gehenna)."

Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna)."

Matthew 18:9: "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (gehenna)."

Matthew 23:15: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and land to make one proselyte (convert), and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell (gehenna) than yourselves."

Matthew 23:33: "You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the ****ation of hell (gehenna)?"

In Mark 9:43-47, Jesus says, "if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into (gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched." It is the same text quoted previously, as found in Matthew 5:29,30, so study it carefully. Every time Jesus mentions this place, gehenna, He always says it is the place where the worm dieth not and the fire is never quenched (Mark 9:44, 46, 48). Do not let some cultist tell you this is the grave when the Word of God makes it explicitly clear that this is a place where there is agony, suffering, burning, where the memory dies not, and where the fires never cease.

Luke 12:5: "I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell (gehenna); yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Then in James 3:6, He says, "the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell (gehenna)."

So there are eleven passages concerning hades, twelve passages concerning gehenna and then, of course, in II Peter 2:4, the passage concerning the angels---which is tartarus---but in every instance He is talking about a place of suffering. Hades is the local jail where the sinner awaits the judgment morning. He comes out and is judged and then is transferred to gehenna. Do not let any false religionist, any cultist, tell you that it is merely a grave. Hear me, my friend. When Jesus stood on this earth, He pointed to the Valley of Hinnom. In the Old Testament it was a place of sacrifice to pagan gods and when they threw in many animals there was terrible wailing. Jesus, with tears running down His face, said: "I do not want anyone lost. I would have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4, paraphrased). How often Jesus wept as He preached and said, "If you reject Me, if you die lost, if you choose sin, it is going to be like gehenna over there, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth." In the New Testament it became the garbage dump. The fires burned 24 hours a day for years to get rid of all the refuse, and Jesus said it was going to be like the fires over there. Everyone knew as He pointed to the very spot what was going on there ---it was not a calm, quiet, peaceful grave.

[Archetype]

As always Oldschool, you've outdone yourself. An amazing post as usual, very informative.

[gordmcfarling]

Old School,

After reading this further and really reading into this and reading of Kryptos confusion, I thought about the Bible study I'm attending. Ironically we are covering 2 Peter. I was reading over the study sheet with my wife and we are starting the 2nd Chapter and really feel this is pertinant to Krypto, but I am lousy with my explanations so I will post the passage and pray this helpful to Krypto
2 Peter Chapter 2 1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2.And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned.
3. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgement from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

This is pretty straightforward, this is a warning of what will be an ongoing problem for Christians of all ages. We will face indecision daily. He also goes on in Chapter 3 to tell us that we must study and keep God's word in our hearts, and be vigilant of foolish men so we aren't swept away from our faith in Jesus Christ. Also in Chapter 3 Peter leaves no doubt that the earth will be destroyed by God (reference 2 Peter 3:7-12). I hope this helps Krypto sort out some of her questions. I'll pray that she is shown answers and gets the guidance she needs to grow as a Christian.

[Venom]

2 Kings 5: 1 - 27
1 Now Naaman, captain of the host of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master, and honourable, because by him the LORD had given deliverance unto Syria: he was also a mighty man in valour, but he was a leper. 2 And the Syrians had gone out by companies, and had brought away captive out of the land of Israel a little maid; and she waited on Naaman's wife. 3 And she said unto her mistress, Would God my lord were with the prophet that is in Samaria! for he would recover him of his leprosy. 4 And one went in, and told his lord, saying, Thus and thus said the maid that is of the land of Israel. 5 And the king of Syria said, Go to, go, and I will send a letter unto the king of Israel. And he departed, and took with him ten talents of silver, and six thousand pieces of gold, and ten changes of raiment. 6 And he brought the letter to the king of Israel, saying, Now when this letter is come unto thee, behold, I have therewith sent Naaman my servant to thee, that thou mayest recover him of his leprosy. 7 And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me. 8 And it was so, when Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.
9 So Naaman came with his horses and with his chariot, and stood at the door of the house of Elisha. 10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. 11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? 14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant. 16 But he said, As the LORD liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none. And he urged him to take it; but he refused. 17 And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the LORD. 18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing. 19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way.

What a great example of out thinking ourselves!

Its funny, we like to make things more difficult on our selves. We like to look for stuff that is not even there!

But when you look, it's very simple.
Its like we would be happier if we had to jump of a cliff to be saved. God has made it simple, like I quoted earlier except Jesus as your Lord and savor. And that's the way the entire bible works.

As gord stated, God is straightforward; he makes it so simple that we out think ourselves!

But once you get into the word of God you discover that it is true, and not one bit is contradictory! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[oes]

As I stated before, you must "study to show thysef approved."which means that we as Christians are to search the scriptures and learn what God's Word is saying to us, so that when we are asked, that we can answer the unsaved. I also recommend studying the book of John first and purchase yourself a good commentary on that book to help you understand what the Bible is really saying. And then the Pauline letters next.
Take some time for Christ every day and read and study and pray through the Bible. God Bless

If you still are having questions about salvation and what will happen after death go to this link. www.needhim.org (http://www.needhim.org)

[Venom]

Oes, you like my signature. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[oes]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: venom:</font><hr> Oes, you like my signature. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Yes. I have a New Teatament tape set by Alexader Scourby, He does an excellent job, and I like the Crosswalk site as well. Lots of good stuff there. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Venom]

Me to! It's awesome and incredibly fast and smooth to read.

I got James Earl Jones for the New Testament, and Scourpy for the old. They are awesome! I especially love hearing Darth Vader read the bible! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I would recommend this to anyone who wants to master the Word of God! Great tool. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[oes]

Yeah, and isn't the Blue letter bible on that site? As well as Matthew Henry and other commentaries?

[Venom]

/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't know. /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[oes]

I might be a little confused /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Check this out Venom http://www.blueletterbible.org/

[Venom]

For those of you who would like to purchase these awesome tapes check these links out, The greatest reader of our time, reads the greatest book of all time! (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1886089671/qid=1037435639/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6713399-2342368?v=glance&amp;s=books) And The old testement by Alexander Scourpy. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0529106418/qid=1037435763/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/104-6713399-2342368?v=glance&amp;s=books)

James earl Jones has music already in the back round. But the old testament tapes just have the narrator, so I play some classical music in the back round (like Mozart) and it sounds great!


p.s Looks like a cool site oes, I will check it out.

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey guys,
here is the other 3 seals! I'll be adding the 7 trumpets later tonight. I'm just giving the gist of the remaining seals and trumpets. The essence if you will. There have been many theories of the other 3 seals of wrath and expanded studies of the 7 trumpets. Maybe someday I'll cover those. But for now here are the basics. I'm going to cover the 7 vials of wrath in more detail in the next prophecy post, that will be coming soon entitled "Armageddon- the last Jihad". I belive the 7 bowls of wrath are literally a prelude to hell! The 7 vials are exact translations of the desciption we have of hell that are in the bible. I'll be expanding on that idea in the next post. But until then here's the remaining seals...

Revelation chapter 6-8

The Fifth Seal of the Tribulation.

"9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."

With the opening of the fifth seal the souls of those slain for the testimony which they held during the tribulation period are revealed as "under the alter".Here the scenes changes from the events of the first four seals on earth to a scene in heaven. To a number of martyred souls, faithful witnesses who had been killed on earth for believing the truth.

These are the souls of those martyred after the Rapture of the church saints. What mercy God has! Giving his mercy even during the Great Judgment of the earth. Even during his righteous wrath his arm of mercy is extended to the citizens of the earth.

The Sixth Seal of the Tribulation.

"12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Under the sixth seal there will be (1)an earthquake, (2) the sun darkened as black as sackcloth, (3)the moon will become red as blood, (4) a devastating shower of meteorites, (5) the opening of heaven like a scroll and (6) every mountain and island is shaken out of place, striking terror to all that live on the earth.

People will pray for the mountains to fall on them and kill them! Notice they don't pray to God but the mountains!

Many different interpretations of the sixth seal have been given. I personally feel that the opening of the sixth seal will bring a time of great war on the earth. Particularly with weapons of mass destruction that will cause lands to be flattened, the sky to be darkened, bombs to fall like stars, and the earth shaking form the multiple impacts!

144,000 Sealed

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.&amp;#8221;

After the opening of the sixth seal, God will hold back on his wrath for a short time. In the middle of all this terror God remembers his creation that he loves so much. In his mercy God will seal 144,000 Jewish witnesses that will bring the message of Christ to the earth. They are literal Israelites- 12,000- from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

The nature of the seal we are not told. But one thing is clear; until they accomplish their mission God will supernaturally protect them from the Anti-Christ.

Next we see John saw a great multitude which came out of the tribulation, of all nations, and kindred, and peoples, and tongues which have turned to Christ as a result of the 144,000 and were then killed by the anti-Christ. And they stood before the Lord and declared his greatness. This group is clearly distinct from the raptured saints. This group of saved peoples will be part of the earthly 1000 year kingdom that God will establish after the battle of Armageddon.

The Seventh Seal of the Tribulation.

"1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets."

Silence.

This is obviously pointing towards a gasp of breath in heaven. For the utter horror that is about to fall on the earth.

Upon the opening of the 7th seal and last seal there was a brief but ominous silence, as though all creation was holding its breath in anticipation of the terrifying onslaught of judgments to come.

We see that God has given the earth so many chances to take his gift of Salvation. Even during his great judgment on the earth. But now, his wrath will fall on the earth like never before. The silence will bring about the revealing of seven angels with seven trumpets. The seven angels will sound the trumpets in successive order and proclaim the judgments to fall upon the earth.

[HarleyChick]

Just read the entire post.
Great job Old School! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

Thanks Harley Chick!

And that avatar is sweet!

Stay tuned there's more to come!

[barny]

[ QUOTE ]
This is obviously pointing towards a gasp of breath in heaven. For the utter horror that is about to fall on the earth. <hr /></blockquote>

I can only imagine the tension here.

Thankyou Old School, this nights post was once again very helpful /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RichW]

You truly have been blessed with the gift of teaching and evangalism! Great post's I'm learning a lot that will help me to be a better witness! Not just through the original posts but to read your (as well as JW, venom etc) responses to questions! Thanks for tools to be a better witness!

[oes]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Barny:</font><hr> [ QUOTE ]
This is obviously pointing towards a gasp of breath in heaven. For the utter horror that is about to fall on the earth. <hr /></blockquote>

I can only imagine the tension here.

Thankyou Old School, this nights post was once again very helpful /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I marvel at the thought of a time of silence in Heaven. Our feeble minds cannot imagine what that will be like. But I must say that this will most likly be the only time of silence, because we will be praising Him, singing "Holy, holy, holy is the Lamb which was slain!" Like the song says(I can't ramember who sings it) 'I can only imagine'. WOW! This is soooo exuberant!!! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[RichW]

[ QUOTE ]
Like the song says(I can't ramember who sings it) 'I can only imagine'. WOW! This is soooo exuberant!!! <hr /></blockquote>

I love that song too! It's by Mercy Me. I can't hear it without tearing up! I think I'll spend the first half of eternity on my face weeping at his feet!

[Adam Knowlden]

You will!
Have you guys ever heard of Jesse Duplanits?

He's an awesome man of the Lord. Truely blessed.

[Adam Knowlden]

Here's a direct link:

http://www.jdmstore.org/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-VP01CD.html?L+scstore+mdbi7496+1050872837

[Barbelzz]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Mr O:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Scott B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr>

Point is, no one is perfect so just being a nice guy won't get you in heaven. You have to ask God to forgive you sins, confess you're a sinner to God, and say with you lips that you believed Jesus died and rose again for you. Mean it in your heart and you will be saved. God made it too easy
<hr /></blockquote>

Just a point of clarification here. If you do everything you say in the above paragraph except be "a nice guy" your a hypocrite. And don't forget, faith, without good works is dead. <hr /></blockquote>

I guess the serial killer who finds God ten minutes before we fry him is saved but the man who does good deeds al his life but doesnt find god is ****ed.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <hr /></blockquote>

Yes.

[Barbelzz]

Oldschool, how do you know we are now in the 7th church? How do you know when one stops and one starts, etc?

Also, if heaven is perfect (no sin), God's perfect etc., and he made Lucifer (his best angel), then how/why could Lucifer and the other angels sin against God in heaven?

[RichW]

God is perfect yet he made Humans and angels to have free will. If you think about it, itmakes sense. Would you rather have someone love you because they choose to or because they are forced too? God gave the angles and us the choice. Some of us choose to love and serve God some of us choose to love and serve other gods and deny God.

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey barbellz,

Think of it like this. Have you ever stolen? Anything. Even something small? Have you ever lied? Have you ever looked at a girl with lust? Jesus said looking at a woman in lust is the same thing as committing adultery in your heart.

That would make you a theif, a liar, and a adulterer. My point is no one is perfect. No one. Not the "good guy" that payes his taxes and raises his kids. And defenietly not a murderer.

But guess what?

God's mercy is so vast it goes beyond our comprehension!

God loves his creation so much that he will forgive us no matter what we've done if we only ask him to. That's it! That's all you have to do. Give up your pride. Humble yourself and tell God you're sorry for sinning. No secret ritual, no series of meetings. God loves us so much he made it as easy as possible. Give up your pride and ask him to forgive you.

That leads right into your next question about Satan.

And make no mistake about it God is perfect. He never changes from everlasting to everlasting. He stays the same. He is eternal. He has always been. He has always existed. He will always exist. He does not grow older. He does not gain or lose power. He does not improve or deteriorate. He was perfect from time everlasting to time everlasting. Many situations can alter the character of a person. A shock, strain, surgery, a lobotomy, or 30 minutes of public school. But nothing can alter the character of God. "The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plan of his heart to all generations." Psalms 33:11

God did create Lucifer. He was the most beautiful and wisest of all God's angels. No doubt God gave him immense power and loved him very much. But his pride took over him. Look, God doesn't create robots. He creates all his creation in his image. With a will and a mind of its own. Not some drone that walks around with no choices. Satan said,"I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will be like the Most High!" Many other angels took this view as well, and God kicked him out of his kingdom!

This same pride is what is exemplified in the Laodecian church of today. How do we know what church we're in? The descriptions tell it all. We don't need God. We crush his Holy Ways. We spit on the cross. And we tell God "We don't need you!" Just like Satan did. We marvel at our own creations and technology.

However, Men do no break God's rules . God's laws break men. God always judges sin. And make no mistake about it all will stand before God one day. SOme will hear, "Come with me in my kingdom and take part in paradise." And some will here,"Depart from me you worker of evil I never knew you".

The only way to hear the first option is to accept Jesus as your Savior.

[Venom]

Great post old school! /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]

"12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh, what a seen here! /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Hebrews 10:19-39
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As Paul says, it is a fearful thing to fall under Gods wrath! Not a good place to be. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Very cool scriptures, keep up the great work.

[lonelifter]

This is my first time sending anything over this site; I've really enjoyed reading your orignial post and couldn't agree more with it and with your replys to some of the members out there. Some of their questions sound like a lot the confusion that I was experiencing about 29 years ago at the "know it all" age of 20 just before I gave my body, soul, and spirit over to Jesus Christ. Admitting that I was a sinner( yes I was and so is every man born )and recognizing that God had provided for the salvation of mankind by letting His Son pay the death sentence for me through Christ's death on the cross; I believed in the very innermost part of my being. The Word says: "for with the heart man believes, bring about righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made, bringing about salvation." I am totally uplifted by the fact that there are a number of born again weightlifers who are not afraid to share the good news concerning Christ's death and resurrection and His prophetic second coming. Truly, one can never really understand what the Word says until one understands with the rebirthed spirit; by the Holy Spirit of God living inside of you. That is why some of your readers cannot understand what being a new creation is all about; but neither did the Spirit of God had brought us to the place in our lives where we fell at His feet (not literally, but in our souls ) and accepted His love for us..." but God demonstrated His love for us, in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

[Venom]

First, welcome to the boards lonelifter! Your going to love it here.

..." but God demonstrated His love for us, in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Great scripture truly inspiring!

1 John 4:7-13
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

This is awesome! That God chose to love us, not that we chose to love him! What an honor. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

Kool bro!
Welcome to the boards!

[ QUOTE ]
Truly, one can never really understand what the Word says until one understands with the rebirthed spirit <hr /></blockquote>

This is very true. That is why God says the ways of the Lord are foolishness to men. Unless you have the Holy Spirit you just "don't get it" so to say.

But once you have that Spirit, man the world takes on a new perspective. You begin to see things the way God does, and how sinful this world is!

[oes]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: lonelifter:</font><hr> This is my first time sending anything over this site; I've really enjoyed reading your orignial post and couldn't agree more with it and with your replys to some of the members out there. Some of their questions sound like a lot the confusion that I was experiencing about 29 years ago at the "know it all" age of 20 just before I gave my body, soul, and spirit over to Jesus Christ. Admitting that I was a sinner( yes I was and so is every man born )and recognizing that God had provided for the salvation of mankind by letting His Son pay the death sentence for me through Christ's death on the cross; I believed in the very innermost part of my being. The Word says: "for with the heart man believes, bring about righteousness, and with the mouth, confession is made, bringing about salvation." I am totally uplifted by the fact that there are a number of born again weightlifers who are not afraid to share the good news concerning Christ's death and resurrection and His prophetic second coming. Truly, one can never really understand what the Word says until one understands with the rebirthed spirit; by the Holy Spirit of God living inside of you. That is why some of your readers cannot understand what being a new creation is all about; but neither did the Spirit of God had brought us to the place in our lives where we fell at His feet (not literally, but in our souls ) and accepted His love for us..." but God demonstrated His love for us, in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." <hr /></blockquote>

Absolutely! And a hearty welcome to the board! What an awesome testimony, and Praise God. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey barbellz this site may help answer some of your questions!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/answersmedia/searchProcess.asp