Bible Prophecy-Setting the Stage Part II

[Adam Knowlden]

Last time we discussed the resurrection of Israel after 2000 years of non-existence as a nation. You can read "Setting the Stage part I" HERE. (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bodybuilder&Number=342222& page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) . These first two posts are just the basics of bible prophecy. The "building blocks"if you will. Without understanding these first two posts, you won't have a full grasp on the outlining of end-time prophecies.

In "Setting the Stage part II" were are going to be discussing Islam and what you should know in regards to the Christian faith. We will be discussing their beliefs, their heritage (Ishmael), the extremist's of the religion and their anger towards us and Israel.

There is no doubt that Islam and the Muslim world has caught our attention over the past year. Since the tragic events of 9/11, the chaos of the Middle East has left the TV screen and begun to hit home. Before, the conflicts in the Middle East were just stories we heard glimpses about on the World News. These days they are much more real to us as they play a direct role in our lives. When will we be hit next? To what extreme? No doubt these are questions on all of our minds. Why do they hate us? What did we do to them?

Before I continue I just want to say that I am in no way intending to insult or categorize anyone of Muslim faith. I understand that the majority of Islamic followers are passive and non-violent. It is the extreme Muslims that I am dealing with, and their numbers are growing rapidly across the globe. I am in no way trying to categorize all Muslims or followers of Islam. I'm not trying to say that all Islamic followers are bent on the destruction of Israel and America and are violent in nature, but that the extremists of this religion are growing as well as the threat. This growth of extreme Islam and the hatred of Israel and America (because of our backing of Israel) in the Arab world will all have a direct correlation to the arrival of the anti-Christ and the end time, which I will be discussing in a future post. In this post I am simply setting the stage for future prophecy posts.

What is Islam?

The word Islam means, "Submission to God."
And the word "Muslim" means "one who has submitted."

The basic beliefs of Islam are based on the five pillars:

1. Confession of faith: (Shahadah) "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet."

2. Prayer: (Salah) Turning towards Mecca to pray, five times per day.

3. Annual fast: (Sawm) During the daylight hours through the month of Ramadan.

4. Giving of alms: (Zakat) 2.5% of ones' income to the poor.

5. Pilgrimage: (Hajj) A trip that must be made to Mecca at least once in your life, unless it is absolutely impossible.

6. Extremists have elevated the "Jihad" or Holy War to be the sixth pillar!And not a Holy War of declaring Muslim beliefs, but a actual physical war!

What are the main differences between Christianity and Islam? I'm going to highlight the main points, then tell how they are contradictory to the bible as viewed with a Christian perspective.

1. Mohammed claimed to receive an additional revelation from God through the angel Gabriel.

God clearly warns us of adding to his Words.

Galatians 1:8-9:

"Let God's curses fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you about(the message of Jesus Christ); yes, if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other messages, let him be cursed forever. I will say it again: if anyone preaches any other gospel than the one you welcomed, let God"s curse fall upon him."

I John 4: 1-3

"Brothers, do not believe every spirit, but test whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God."

If a prophet does not confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and came into the flesh, then it is anti-Christ.

2. Islam believes the Qur'an was necessary to correct a corrupted bible. They believe the bible has lost validity over the ages and Allah gave Muhammad the "New Bible".

Revelation 22:18, 19

From the mouth of Jesus, "I solemnly declare to everyone who reads this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God shall add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone subtracts from any part of these prophecies, God shall take away his share in the Tree of Life, and in the Holy City just described."

3. Islam claims Jesus is one of God's prophets, but not the only begotten Son of God.

I John 2:22, 23

"And who is the greatest liar? The one who says Jesus is not the Christ. Such a person is anti-Christ, for he does not believe in God the Father and in his Son. For a person who does not believe in Christ, God's Son, can not have God the Father either. But he who has Christ, God';s Son, has God the Father also."

Why are they mad at us, as Americans?

1. Four thousand years of animosity between the Arab and the Jew. (more on that in the next section)

2. The establishment of the state of Israel (see Setting the stage part I.)

3. America, both as the richest and most powerful country in the world, has consistently stood with Israel. That is why we are the target. Arab terrorists form a thorn in the flesh of every Western nation, because Israel is viewed as a Western invasion into Arab land, dating back even to the beginnings of non-Jewish Zionism before even 1881. Furthermore, only days after desecrating Joseph's gravesite in September of 2000, Arab terrorists did a suicide run that blew up the U.S.S. Cole at a harbor in the Middle East. A year later they destroyed the Twin Towers by flying two jets full of people into them, killing over 3000. Undoubtedly for Arab terrorists, hatred toward the Christianized West and hatred toward the Jewish Israel go hand in hand.

What does the Bible say about the Arab world?
The Bible states that the last great Jihad (Armageddon) will put Israel against the rest of the Middle East and its allies, who will be lead by the Anti-Christ. How did it all begin and why have they remained mortal enemies for thousands of years?
The origin of the Arabic nations is described in Genesis 16.

The story begins when Abraham decided to help"God. That's a nice way of saying that he decided to make God's mind up for him. God had promised Abraham that he would have a son with Sarah and that he would be the father of a great nation. The couple tried and tried, but still no son.
Often times we don't associate feelings with the bible characters. But I assure you these people had real feelings. Imagine the depression Sarah must have gone through when she didn't conceive. In those days it was considered the woman's fault if there was no conception. Instead of waiting on God's promise, Sarah decided to allow Abraham to have a son through her hand-maiden Hagar. Finally, she convinced Abraham who agreed.

Together, Abraham and Hagar had a child named Ishmael. But God told Abraham this was not his plan and that this child would not be the one to receive the everlasting covenant God promised. Abraham pleaded with God, but God remained steadfast with his original plan, but assured Abraham that Ishmael would be greatly blessed.

There are several things to notice in this chapter. First of all, Ishmael was born out of sin. God promised Abram in Genesis 13:14-17, that Canaan would belong to his descendents, who would be numbered like the dust of the earth. God re-confirmed this promise in Genesis 15:5, saying that his descendents would be as numerous as the stars.

When God tells you something once, believe it. When he tells you twice, you'll do best to take a step back and consider why He thought that necessary to be repeated. In Abram's case, as Genesis 16 confirms, he didn't quite believe God's promise. After all, he was convinced by Sarah's argument that God needed help in fulfilling His own promise (mistake). So, Abram slept with Hagar, the servant of Sarah, and she gave birth to Ishmael. Abram's first sin was doubting God. His other sin was sleeping with his wife's maid, making Ishmael a product of sin.

God, staying true to his original promise to establish his covenant with Abraham, Gave Sarah a son,

"Sarah your wife shall bear you a son," God tells Abraham in Genesis I7: I9-2I. "And you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac. . . ."

Conflict between the two sons of Abraham began from the very start. In Genesis, chapter 21:9, it says the conflict began just after Isaac was weaned: "Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking."

Ishmael, now a teenager, was mocking the infant Isaac, the Bible tells us. Ishmael had been "born according to the flesh" and Isaac had been "born according to the promise"(Galatians 4:21-31). Ishmael was replaced by Isaac as the favored son and heir. This made him jealous and bitter. As a result, he mocked and disdained his half-brother. Eventually the situation became so intolerable that Sarah demanded that Ishmael and his Egyptian concubine mother, Hagar, be expelled permanently from Abraham's family.

But the Lord loved Hagar and her son and had mercy on them. God did not blame Ishmael for being born into sin. On the contrary the bible says God loved Hagar, and wanted to be close to him. God promised her son would beget twelve princes who would become a great nation. Ishmael went to live in the wilderness region of Hejaz in what became known as the Arabian Peninsula. He indeed had twelve patriarchal sons who became associated with the peoples known as Midianites, Edomites, Egyptians and Assyrians. Here the Bible and Islamic tradition both agree that Ishmael became the leader of all the great desert peoples of the Middle East.

Obviously God provided many opportunities in this story for redemption of bad situations created mostly out of disobedience and lack of faith. Abraham agreed to impregnate Hagar at the request of his wife Sarah. To be fair to Ishmael, God provided him a great kingdom of his own to the east of his brother, but it was never enough.

What is the dispute between Jews and Arabs about? The ownership of the nation of Israel between the Jews and the Arabs. It is this jealously and resentment that has created a hate that has no parallel in history. This hatred has continuously set off wars and atrocities for four thousand years. And it is that title deed to the land of Israel, which God promised to Abraham's lineage, which has been the source of the friction between the Jews and the Arabs right up to this very moment.

Muslims believe the Jews changed and distorted the Bible in order to establish themselves as the heirs of Abraham's Covenant blessings. However, they fail to explain how the New Testament, written by Christians who had no motive for following Jewish falsifications, clearly teaches that the Covenants were made to Isaac and his descendants.
According to Islamic tradition, Abraham had eight sons rather than two. They say they were reared in Mecca not Hebron. They say it was Ishmael, not Isaac, whom Abraham was about to sacrifice on Mount Moriah when an angel stopped him.

According to the Koran, the Abrahamic covenant, with its promises-including the title deed to the land of Israel-was passed down to the Arabs through Ishmael, rather than to the Jews through Isaac.

But, if you believe the Old and New Testaments were written under the inspiration of the Spirit of God, then there is no question that Israel is the Promised Land of the Jews. And God's words to Abraham in Genesis are some 2,500 years older than the creation of Islam.

"Sarah your wife shall bear you a son," God tells Abraham in Genesis I7: I9-2I. "And you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac. . . ."

God fulfilled His promise to Abraham. He fulfilled His promise to Isaac. And He fulfilled His promise to Ishmael. In fact, God gave much more land to Ishmael than He did to Isaac. He also made salvation available to his descendants. But they were never satisfied with God's blessings and few accepted His salvation.

Conclusion

The main point of these first two posts was to set the stage for biblical prophecy.
This can be understood only after you have a clear understanding of the promise he gave the Jews and the promise he gave to the Arabs.

<font color="red">Understanding the current Middle Eastern situation's history is vital to understanding the future prophecy postings.
Next week we will be discussing the Rapture of the Church, when God's clock strikes midnight! </font color>

[xavior]

Cool beans Old School /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif I just printed it off. Really loved the last one /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[coolrock]

Very informative post, thankyou for sharing. The conflict has definately been heated for such a long time.

[Venom]

That's some really cool information old school! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif I learned allot of new stuff from that post, /forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif very informative to say the least. /forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I am going to have to read that a couple of times. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Sun Tzu]

Post deleted by OldSchool

[gordmcfarling]

Biased? Have you ever been called an infidel? DO you think they give us the time of day over there? How many factions of Muslims are there? As for Mohammed being a prophet, I don't believe he was. I think he twisted the Torah and Talmud for his own ends. I don't have any disrespect for what people believe just so you know. God gave us the choice of what we wish to believe. As for the translation of the Bible, how many mistakes in translation to English does the Koran have? There are Arabic words that don't have a direct English word and only a close copy. Considering that we mortals are prone to error, does this surprise you? I don't think it is surprising. Please be more unbiased. If you are Muslim, why don't you present us with some facts for a good debate, I don't think we need to butt heads.

[Dave.]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: gordmcfarling:</font><hr> Biased?
1.Have you ever been called an infidel?

2. As for Mohammed being a prophet, I don't believe he was. I think he twisted the Torah and Talmud for his own ends.

3. I don't have any disrespect for what people believe just so you know. God gave us the choice of what we wish to believe. <hr /></blockquote>

Dave the nitpicking atheist is back /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
(note i numbered the quotes so as to simplify my answers

1. Yes. By many people of many beliefs, including a number of the fine people on this board. Infidel isnt the only word for those dont belive.

2. That comment might be a result of your religious beliefs, but did you know that Muslims count Jesus among thier top 4 prophets? Along with Abraham, Moses, and of course Mohammad. I belive all were prophets. All preached and speard the word of thier religion. Is that not the basic job description of a prophet?

3. Glad to hear it. Funny how many people say that (including these forums), then turn around and verbally beat down the non-Christians (it IS a Christian dominated board) and atheists. As far as everything goes, if anybody is gonna SAY they support choice, have them act that way.

One way or the other, interesting reading is interesting reading. Keep em coming OldSchool.

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey TMD!

[ QUOTE ]
That comment might be a result of your religious beliefs, but did you know that Muslims count Jesus among thier top 4 prophets? Along with Abraham, Moses, and of course Mohammad. I belive all were prophets. All preached and speard the word of thier religion. Is that not the basic job description of a prophet?
<hr /></blockquote>

As I said, they feel Jesus was a prophet but that Mohammed is higher than Jesus.

A prophet is someone who is given a message from God. The bible is clear that there are many false prophets. Any prophet who does not claim Jesus is the only way to Salvation is a false prophet, according to the bible. And any prophet who claims the bible needs "corrected" is a false prophet from a Christian perspective.

Oh yeah, these are just the basics to understanding biblical prophecy! The kool ones are coming up starting next week!
These first two setting the stage posts are kind of like Jacob's muslce fiber article part I. You can't understand the other stuff till you have the basics!

Also, anyone who has a legit arguement can present it, but if you come in this post and start cussing and ranting, you're wasting your time.

[gordmcfarling]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: TrackManDave:</font><hr>

Dave the nitpicking atheist is back /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif
(note i numbered the quotes so as to simplify my answers

1. Yes. By many people of many beliefs, including a number of the fine people on this board. Infidel isnt the only word for those dont belive.

2. That comment might be a result of your religious beliefs, but did you know that Muslims count Jesus among thier top 4 prophets? Along with Abraham, Moses, and of course Mohammad. I belive all were prophets. All preached and speard the word of thier religion. Is that not the basic job description of a prophet?

3. Glad to hear it. Funny how many people say that (including these forums), then turn around and verbally beat down the non-Christians (it IS a Christian dominated board) and atheists. As far as everything goes, if anybody is gonna SAY they support choice, have them act that way.

One way or the other, interesting reading is interesting reading. Keep em coming OldSchool. <hr /></blockquote>

Dave,

nitpicking eh? well as long as it isn't as bad as my wife. That'll drive me nuts. Okay now for rebuttal

1. Some peoples children. I try not to label people, it is the basis of prejudice. Not cool
2. No I wasn't aware he was considered a prophet, but I was aware that he has been acknowledged in the Torah. As for Jesus being a prophet, that is wrong. At least according to my beliefs. No the basic job description of a prophet is not just to spread the word. They convey messages from God to the people. It's not really something I am knowledgable in. I have the basics but I don't want to say the wrong thing. As far as I understand God used prophets to let his people know information. They were a conduit. They let Isreal know what God wanted and what he was going to do. Jesus was his son. He sent Jesus to us to save us from our sins. Jesus was the living sacrifice whereas the prophets (Old Testament and New Testament) were like God's cryers. They went ahead to pave the way for Christ, Elijah, Elisha and John the Baptist for example. Also to clarify something, religion is different then belief. Religion is usually a body organised by man for worship, and belief or faith is just that. It is a belief in God's mercy, you can't really say Catholicism is a faith but a religion. Faith to me is that God sent his Son who died for me to deliver me from my sin. It's called Faith for a reason... /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif .
3. please remember I am human and am prone to mistakes, so please be patient with me. Yes I agree with you even though you haven't actually come out and said it, hypocrisy really destroys a persons respectability. Am I reading your mind?

[Sun Tzu]

I am not a muslim, but I have actually read up a bit on Islam... And Gosh Old School, thankyou SO MUCH for deleting my post! I had a couple legitimate points there, but you didn't like them, so you deleted it. As you'll probably delete this one too.

And yeah, it is awfully convenient that anyone who doesn't acknowledge Jesus as their savior is an infidel. Anyone who says the bible might have been fixed by the church somewhere along the line is an infidel. *Waves hands around emphatically* Doesn't this strike you as particularily odd?

I agree, that there is stuff lost in the translation. However, that's not what I'm talking about in the bible. I think chunks were thrown out because they went against what the churches in the past wanted people to believe. Gospel of St. Thomas anyone?

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
I have the basics but I don't want to say the wrong thing <hr /></blockquote>

You have everything!

Awesome post bro!

[Adam Knowlden]

I deleted you post because you were outright rude.
I wanted to keep that between us in a PM, but if you want to bring it out...your response was very childish actually.

You are entitled to your opinion, but cussing and carrying on isn't the way around here and you already know that.

You can say whatever you want, but in a mature way.

I'm also hoping this will be the end of it. /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dave.]

OldSchool-

I might have missed this while reading the post, but when you refer to the anti-Christ, what exactly are you referring to? The devil? Im an atheist, doesnt that make me an anit-Christ in a way? What is meant by THE anti-Christ?

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey TMD,

There are two types of anti-christ in the bible.

The first is false prophets who go into the world claiming to lead you to God. If they tell you any other way outside of Jesus Christ and his sacrfice and they claim other bibles as the words of God, they are anti-Christ.

There will also be the ultimate Anti-Christ,whom the Bible calls the man of lawnessness. He will arise in the last days to decieve the nations, after the rapture of the Church. He will establish a false treaty with Israel and for the first time there will be peace in the Middle East. But its a false peace. The Jews will accept him as the Messiah, since they don't believe he has come yet(they don't think Jesus is the Son of God). He will work miracles and will get his power straight from Satan. Its important to note that God's children (the restraining force) are gone at this point, and Satan is given full control of the earth!

After 3 1/2 years of peace he will turn on the Jews and gather the nations to destroy Israel. This is the battle of Armageddon. The Anti-christ vs. Israel. However, Jesus will make his second coming with all the saved believers and destroy the anti-christ and his amry! There is no real "battle" as the Bible says Jesus will conquer them himself and apartenly with great ease!

He will then bind up Satan and cast him into the abyss for 1000 years. And throw the anit-christ and his false prophet into the Lake of Fire.

That is bible prophecy in a nut-shell. There are tons more details, just stay tuned for future posts to get all of them! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gordmcfarling]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Sun Tzu:</font><hr> I am not a muslim, but I have actually read up a bit on Islam...<hr /></blockquote>

No offense intended, but you state you've only read up on Islam. Not bashing you but its kind of like saying I'm not a bodybuilder, but I read Weiders principals. Yes I am acknowledging you probably have read more then me on Islam but it's not the same as being a practicing Muslim. It's hard to debate beliefs with a non believer. The best I can think of is people wondering why we work out to get big and muscular they just don't understand.

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Sun Tzu:</font><hr>And yeah, it is awfully convenient that anyone who doesn't acknowledge Jesus as their savior is an infidel.<hr /></blockquote>
Yes but as a Christian I am not supposed to hold that against you. I have to treat you the same as Christian brother. I am also supposed to witness to you but I can't stand the way some people go about it. I think people should practice what they preach. I also think it is my duty as a Christian to remind non Christians that we a practicing our beliefs but we are humans doing the best we can. We sin all the time whether we want to admit it or not. We stand on our little soapbox and rant about perfection and point out faults but we are not supposed to do that. God doesn't want that. He wants us to walk the walk. But us in our arrogance don't do that. So yes it causes people to mock us and rightfully so. Sorry about the rant kinda got into this a little to emotionally.
<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: SunTzu:</font><hr>Anyone who says the bible might have been fixed by the church somewhere along the line is an infidel. *Waves hands around emphatically* Doesn't this strike you as particularily odd?<hr /></blockquote>

Not true, maybe some wierd zealot would say that but as we know there were hand copied scrolls stashed and lost that would fill in gaps or offer better translation. Also when the Bibles were "modernized" words were used with less conviction and emphasis, so as not to offend. I don't think God cares about offending us. We should however worry about offending God. Also where did you hear that saying the bible was fixed by the church? I am curious, is this your own conviction or was it actually said by someone?
<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: SunTzu:</font><hr>
I agree, that there is stuff lost in the translation. However, that's not what I'm talking about in the bible. I think chunks were thrown out because they went against what the churches in the past wanted people to believe. Gospel of St. Thomas anyone? <hr /></blockquote>

Gospel of StThomas? Are you refering to St. Thomas Acquinas? Or doubting Thomas? I've never heard of the gospel of St.Thomas. Could you elaborate? As far as I know God gave us what we need. No more no less. Again, we are working in the Faith area. It is important to remember that the Apostles wrote a lot of letters to different churches and people when they were alive. Some were put in the bible because they had relevance, some were excluded because they were letters about day to day living (how's Joe etc.) not about God's message. I think I know what you are arguing but, I am not exactly sure.

[KrYptic.x]

I am not going to get involved in the debate that has erupted, I don't wish to put my foot in my mouth so to speak.

But I do want to comend you on the knowladge and strength of your faith Oldschool. I learn so much about my religon (well, our religion) with every one of your posts.

Maybe one of these times I will actually chime in with my 2 cents worth.

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: gordmcfarling:</font><hr>Gospel of StThomas? Are you refering to St. Thomas Acquinas? Or doubting Thomas? I've never heard of the gospel of St.Thomas. Could you elaborate?<hr /></blockquote>

Never heard of the Apocrypha? What he is basically aiming at is that what is contained in the Catholic bible was selected more or less by the Council of Nicea. It was basically a political process headed by Emperor Constantine (who wasn't even a Christian by standards expressed here). The question then becomes why did they select the writings that they did, and more importantly why did they leave out the writings that they did. The standard out is of course, they were inspired by God...but what reason is there to conclude that this was really the case?

[Adam Knowlden]

[ QUOTE ]
The standard out is of course, they were inspired by God...but what reason is there to conclude that this was really the case? <hr /></blockquote>

To anyone who knows scripture the answer is obvious...

Although they make for an comical read they are defenietly not inspired by God.
Why?

1.Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament. All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.

2.None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.
The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

3.The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the Christian church.

4.The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.

5.The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.
Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):

Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.

6.It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.

The divinly inspired 66 books of God teach us about God's true nature. In one word Love. Sorcery, lying, suicide, purgatory, sinless humans, forgiveness of sins by money are totally contradictory to the being of God.

God's gift of Salvation is free, and if you have the Holy Spirit you know that redemption doesn't come from anything from any act man can do, but only through the blood of Jesus.

Wasn't the Apocrypha in the King James?

The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God. As books of "some" historical value, the Apocrypha was sandwiched between the Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed the format that Luther had used. Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a statement:

"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriputres."

King James Version Defended page 98.
In 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King James said this about the Apocrypha:

"As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM!"
King James Charles Stewart
Basilicon Doron, page 13

Not only this, but the sixth article of the Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England (1571 edition) states:

In the name of the Holy, we do vnderstande those canonical bookes of the olde and newe Testament, of whose authoritie was never any doubt in the Churche...
Now concerning the apocrypha it states,

And the other bookes, (as Hierome sayeth) but yet doth it not applie them to establish any doctrene [sic].
Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1977, Vol. III, pp. 489-491.

The Apocrypha began to be omitted from the Authorized Version in 1629. Puritans and Presbyterians lobbied for the complete removal of the Apocrypha from the Bible and in 1825 the British and Foreign Bible Society agreed. From that time on, the Apocrypha has been eliminated from practically all English Bibles--Catholic Bibles and some pulpit Bibles excepted.

[Neeker]

Just for clarification, I believe Sun Tzu is referring to the Gnostic Gospels, at least that is what the gospel of St. Thomas is from.

Gnosticism is an interesting part of early Christian history. If you are unfamiliar with it, check out this web page with a short explanation: http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/gnostic.htm

Also, Elaine Pagel's book "The Gnostic Gospels" is a great in-depth look at this movement.

[dbackdeb]

Thanks oldschool, that was very informative! I will stay tuned in. God bless, Debra

[gordmcfarling]

Well I'm still learning so this new to me. The Apocrypha is something I just heard errrr read about. It sounds like those crazies who used to live on poles so they wouldn't touch the "sinful" earth. The maccabees I have heard of but don't know much about other than they were an extremist group. I also know Constantine I was a prone to fits of madness. With all the lead they used in cutlery and glasses then it isn't a surprise.

[Adam Knowlden]

The Gnostic gospels are another form of Hogwash. They basically teach new age propaganda and have no legitimate background in the Christian bible.
It basically teaches the you have the ability to become a god. Kind of like what Satan thought! "I will ascend above the heavens, I will be like the most High!"

D.R. Groothuis in his book 'Revealing the New Age Jesus' lists 7 related views which permeate the Gnostic view of Jesus and are common in the New Age view being propagated today.

1) Jesus is revered as a highly spiritually evolved being who serves as an example for further evolution. His miracles are accepted as manifestations of his mastery of divine energy or his tapping into the 'Christ' power.

2) The individual, personal, historical Jesus is separated form the universal, impersonal, eternal Christ or Christ consciousness. Jesus is a Christ, but not the Christ.

3) The orthodox understanding of Jesus as the final and supreme revelation of God is dismissed as illegitimate. We all have the potential to become 'Christs'.

4) Jesus' death on the cross is not accepted as having any ethical significance for salvation.

5) Jesus' resurrection from the dead is not viewed as a physical fact demonstrating his victory over sin, death and Satan but as a spiritual triumph not unique to Jesus. There are many other 'Ascended Masters.'

6) Jesus' second coming is not a literal, physical and visible return in the clouds at the end of the age but is rather a stage in the evolution of the race. One New Age teacher tells his clients, 'You are god, you are each and every one, part of the second coming.'

7) Exotic extra-biblical documents are regarded as sources for authentic material about the life of Jesus not available from the Scriptures.

[gordmcfarling]

After reading that St Thomas link, I thought, that 's a saint? what a load of *&amp;^%(^)(*&amp; . This Thomas character sure has some wierd outlooks. I know that isn't divinely inspired. It doesn't add up.

[Venom]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: gordmcfarling:</font><hr> After reading that St Thomas link, I thought, that 's a saint? what a load of *&amp;^%(^)(*&amp; . This Thomas character sure has some wierd outlooks. I know that isn't divinely inspired. It doesn't add up. <hr /></blockquote>

No kidding, as old school stated, you must try all the spirits. And as you read the bible you can see the clear delineation from inaccurate false books and the ones, which are inspired by God. It's like a joke comparing them! But as you see, they fail every single one of the tests that the bible teaches us to use on false claims, and cleverly devised fairy tails.

[Adam Knowlden]

Exaclty, bro.

This is why God tells us to test the spirits, for many false prophets are in the world!

Galatians 1:8-9:

"Let God's curses fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you about(the message of Jesus Christ); yes, if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other messages, let him be cursed forever. I will say it again: if anyone preaches any other gospel than the one you welcomed, let God"s curse fall upon him."

I John 4: 1-3

"Brothers, do not believe every spirit, but test whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God."

If a prophet does not confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and came into the flesh, then it is anti-Christ.

Revelation 22:18, 19

From the mouth of Jesus, "I solemnly declare to everyone who reads this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God shall add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone subtracts from any part of these prophecies, God shall take away his share in the Tree of Life, and in the Holy City just described."

I John 2:22, 23

"And who is the greatest liar? The one who says Jesus is not the Christ. Such a person is anti-Christ, for he does not believe in God the Father and in his Son. For a person who does not believe in Christ, God's Son, can not have God the Father either. But he who has Christ, God';s Son, has God the Father also."

God made it clear in the bible. Any religion that promotes self-salvation is not of God. OR ANY type of salvation other than Jesus is not of God.

And any religious teacher that adds to or takes from the bible is anti-christ and a false prophet!

Post deleted by OldSchool

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/lurk2.gif

Good stuff, thanks Adam, altho my head is spinning now. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

WHich many new age philosophies derived from.

Bro, I used to be into the occult. Thank God for saving me from that trash.

The New Age is all about turning yourself into a god. Its more than just inner peace. Its about Astral projection and learning form other ascended gods.WHich is contradictory to the Bible. "There are no other gods before me, nor will there be any formed after me". 'nuff said in my mind.

[Adam Knowlden]

Its also about using spells and mind projection to form your reality. Its using hexes and spells to get your desires and lusts.

However these are false satisfactions.

And its in no way a form of Christianity, but a perversion of it!

[oes]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: OldSchool:</font><hr> Hey TMD,

There are two types of anti-christ in the bible.

The first is false prophets who go into the world claiming to lead you to God. If they tell you any other way outside of Jesus Christ and his sacrfice and they claim other bibles as the words of God, they are anti-Christ.

There will also be the ultimate Anti-Christ,whom the Bible calls the man of lawnessness. He will arise in the last days to decieve the nations, after the rapture of the Church. He will establish a false treaty with Israel and for the first time there will be peace in the Middle East. But its a false peace. The Jews will accept him as the Messiah, since they don't believe he has come yet(they don't think Jesus is the Son of God). He will work miracles and will get his power straight from Satan. Its important to note that God's children and his Holy Spirit are gone at this point, and Satan is given full control of the earth!

After 3 1/2 years of peace he will turn on the Jews and gather the nations to destroy Israel. This is the battle of Armageddon. The Anti-christ vs. Israel. However, Jesus will make his second coming with all the saved believers and destroy the anti-christ and his amry! There is no real "battle" as the Bible says Jesus will conquer them himself and apartenly with great ease!

He will then bind up Satan and cast him into the abyss for 1000 years. And throw the anit-christ and his false prophet into the Lake of Fire.

That is bible prophecy in a nut-shell. THere are tons more details, just stay tuned for future posts to get all of them! /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Thats right, there are many anti-christs amongst us, in our government, on our T.V.s proclaiming that they can hold a card that you sent to them or you can put your hands on the T.V. and they can heal you in Jesus' name. Basicly anyone who uses God's word or His name for thier own benifit is an antichrist, as well as one who denies that Jesus is the risen Lord.

As for THE Antichrist, I think Oldschool will hit on that some more later.

[jiacstrap]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Neeker:</font><hr> Just for clarification, I believe Sun Tzu is referring to the Gnostic Gospels, at least that is what the gospel of St. Thomas is from.

Gnosticism is an interesting part of early Christian history. If you are unfamiliar with it, check out this web page with a short explanation: http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/gnostic.htm

Also, Elaine Pagel's book "The Gnostic Gospels" is a great in-depth look at this movement. <hr /></blockquote>

Gnostics believe in only having enough to live and only eating enough to keep your eyes open right?

[kingkaiser]

I've deleted what I wrote, since if there were replies, I wanted to be able to respond to them - and I'd only be able to do so after my exams. Also, I feel these issues are better addressed in a separate post.
Regardless...

[toille]

[ QUOTE ]
OldSchool said:

There will also be the ultimate Anti-Christ,whom the Bible calls the man of lawnessness. He will arise in the last days to decieve the nations, after the rapture of the Church. He will establish a false treaty with Israel and for the first time there will be peace in the Middle East. But its a false peace. The Jews will accept him as the Messiah, since they don't believe he has come yet(they don't think Jesus is the Son of God). He will work miracles and will get his power straight from Satan. Its important to note that God's children and his Holy Spirit are gone at this point, and Satan is given full control of the earth!


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey OldSchool,

I have a question concerning the rapture. It's funny, we acually talked about this yesturday in a bible study, but I disagree with one of your statements. I know your right about the Anti-Christ arising halfway through the time of Tribulation (3.5 years into it), but what we had learned in our study was there is only ONE rapture, and it's at the end of the Tribulation. During the beginning of the Tribulation, thousands of Christians will be slaughtered and our faith tested from all directions. This shows that we are still here on earth, which means that Jesus is still to come. This would also explain how the 144,000 Jews will turn to Him too, but I talk about that a little later.

The reason I think this is while Christians are being slaughtered by the thousands, the Jews will take notice and 144,000 will turn to Him. If Jesus did come and take all the believers and the Holy Spirit out of the world, how would they turn to Jesus and accept them as their personal savior? Since the Holy Spirit calls us to Christ, how would they be called? If they figured things out on their own, wouldn't that show that we didn't need the Holy Spirit in the first place? Then, as the Christians are being killed and the Anti Christ rises to power and starts his war on the Jews, some of them will turn to Him and accept Him as their savior as a result. This is where the bible speaks of the Jews running into the mountains and even more false prophets coming to deceive them. Why would there be so many false prophets if all believers were gone? Why would would there be such a need for deception, since all those left would be hell-bound anyways?

Also, the bible discusses that when Christ comes, He will take all the believers out. As this is happening, everything will go black and at an appointed time, He will reveal Himself to everyone on the earth. Everyone will confess with their tongues that He is Lord and they will fall to their knees. His wrath will then descend on the earth and all sorts of things will happen as the battle rages. From my reading, I understand that His wrath comes after the rapture, so that means, according to you, that it would come right before the tribulation. That would mean no one could come to Jesus and repent during the Tribulation, which would mean He wouldn't need that time of testing; it could then end there.

Sorry I didn't have any scripture verses and my thoughts are kind of jumbled together, but I'll find them today and tomorrow and post them, but I just wanted to see what you thought (Some are from my study, but I need to find the others that I used). These weren't meant to disprove you or get in a fight, but I just want to clear up any misunderstandings I might have or you may have; Revelation is hard to understand and we really need the Holy Spirit to open our understanding concerning the end times. Plus, there are many interpretations on it from different denominations, but it shouldn't matter since we should be seeking the absolute truth, which would lead us to the same conclusion, right? Anyways, this is what I have come to know from His Word, so you can PM me if you want, but just thought I'd discuss this openly and get everyone's view on it. Thanks for the posts though and all the work you have done! Talk to you later!

[Adam Knowlden]

Hey toille, don't worry I'm not mad! /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have a few things to change in these prophecy posts. Things I've studied and learned since then.

I think you are referring to a post-trib rapture.

There are three frames of mind when we are discussing the rapture.

One is pre-trib(the one I believe)
One is mid-trib(at the 3 1/2 year mark)
The other is post-trib(we will get raptured at the second coming at Armageddon)

I'm a huge pre-trib believer!

I will prove it scripturally later tonight. I'm on lunch break now, but I will address this. But I'll probably put it in the rapture post.

Again, no hard feelings from me! Ask anything you want! I'm not easily offended and I know you are being sincere and not mocking! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Adam Knowlden]

The Bible is truth, it provides peace to troubled souls living in a chaotic world. Because it is a two-edged sword, it cuts though the insignificant and points to what is authentic. Because it is sheer raw power; it has the dynamic to move the tallest mountains of unbelief. It is a compendium of truth by which we must live and is nothing short of majestic. Yet, there are many interpretations of holy writ. Great controversy continues to surround the subject of the return of Christ for His church&amp;#8212;as far as a timetable is concerned. There are essentially thee points of view.

Pretribulation View

The pretribulation position reflects the following:

The promise to the church in Philadelphia (Revelation 3:10). The Book of Revelation is written chronologically. It sets forth the believers deliverance from wrath in a beautiful way. Revelation 1:19 states, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be." Presently, the twenty-first century finds us in Revelation, chapter 3. John sees the great escape or evacuation of believers in chapter 4, verse 1. He says, "I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." I believe this to be the Rapture because the twenty-four elders, picturing the saints of all ages;Old and New Testament believers are already crowned and casting their rewards at Christs feet in verses 10 and 11, and believers cannot be crowned until the resurrection of the just occurs (Luke 14:14). Thus, the Rapture has already taken place, the rewards have been distributed, and all is well as the chapter ends.

Then the Tribulation Hour, depicted in Revelation 6, will continue until the Battle of Armageddon, when Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords (see Revelation 19:11). The crowning of the saints in chapter 4, plus the fact that the Church is conspicuously absent and not even mentioned after chapter 4, is certainly meaningful.

I also will keep thee from [not through] the hour of temptation" (Revelation 3:10). Also, "God hath not appointed us to wrath" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

The case of the twenty-four elders (Revelation 4:1). Now lets consider another great pretribulational truth;the twenty-four elders. After the "Come up hither" of Revelation 4:1, twenty-four elders are casting crowns at Christs feet in verses 10 and 11. Then a throne is set up. Around Gods throne are twenty-four thrones on which sit twenty-four elders, "clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" (Revelation 4:4). Who are the twenty-four elders? This is of extreme importance for pretribulation proponents: The twenty-four elders are the representatives of Gods people in both Testamentsthe saints of all ages. The Book of Revelation unites the representative groups often. For instance, in describing the Holy City in Revelation 2 1:12-14, the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are posted on the gates, while the names of the twelve apostles are inscribed upon the citys foundation. Now twelve plus twelve equals twenty-four.

down before the Lamb [Jesus], having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they [sing] a new song, saying, Thou art worthy [Christ] to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Here we witness the praise session of the ages Old and New Testament believers, represented by twenty-four elders, praising the Lamb of God for shedding His blood. Someone says, "Old Testament believers were not saved by the blood." No one but no one gets to heaven without the shed blood of Jesus! This is why Acts 10:43 declares, "To [Jesus] give all the [Old Testament] prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Therefore, Old and New Testament believers, pictured by the twenty-four elders, are singing about the blood in Revelation 5:9 before the seal judgments begin in chapter 6 (the beginning of the Tribulation Hour). The Jews of old looked ahead to Calvarys shed blood as they offered their animal sacrifices while the Church looks back to the Cross as the communion or memorial supper is conducted. Either way, "It is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" (Leviticus 17:11).

Since the elders are already crowned and since no one can be crowned until he is either resurrected if dead, or translated if living it is obvious that the Resurrection has occurred by the time we reach Revelation 4:10. First Thessalonians 4:16 has transpired. We conclude, then, that the scene in Revelation 4 and 5 is the direct result of the Rapture, the great escape before the judgments begin in chapter 6.

The Holy Spirit, the hinderer, is taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8). Another truth concerning the pretribulation Rapture that needs to be considered has to do with the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Jesus, before departing from earth to heaven, said, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:7-8). It is evident that the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us and restrain us from sin. The Spirit of God does this through those whose bodies He indwells.

First Corinthians 6:19 states, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" Every child of God is indwelt by His Spirit: "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9). Spirit-indwelt believers have a purifying effect upon the world. They are the "salt of the earth" and the "light of the world" (Matthew 5:13-14). Salt prevents spoilage, and light dispels darkness. Think of the corruption and darkness that will prevail when the salt of the earth and light of the world are removed at the Rapture. No wonder Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time" (Matthew 24:21).

Does the Bible teach such an evacuation of believers? Is there really a great escape before the Tribulation begins? Definitely! The second epistle to the Thessalonians proves this fact. In the first century, some posttribulationists were already sowing seeds of dissent. They said that the Church was already undergoing the trials of the Tribulation. They even produced a falsified letter, forging Pauls name that stated the Church was in the hour of trial. Recent posttribulational writers have almost gone as far in falsifying facts. They even print names of people who adopted their viewpoint, and the people "quoted" wonder how they arrived at such a conclusion.

Paul settled the mess by stating in 2 Thessalonians 2:1&amp;#8212;8: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth ["hinders"] will let ["hinder"], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his corning."

Paul, deeply perturbed by the forged letter stated in effect, "I understand someone produced a letter, supposedly written by me, stating that the Church is presently experiencing the pangs of the Tribulation Hour. Dont believe that lying prattle. Dont be bothered, bewildered, or shaken over such a distortion of facts. I could not and would not write such a letter simply because the Tribulation cannot begin until two things occur. First, there must be a falling away, and second, the man of sin must be revealed" (paraphrased).

Scholars of the past rendered the phrase "falling away" as "a catching away." They talked about a time when the law of gravitation would be broken and men would "fall away" via the Rapture to meet the Lord in the clouds. Other scholars believed that the Greek word apostaias meant that an apostatized departure from the faith would occur. The important point to consider is that either must happen before the man of sin the lawless one, the beast of the seventieth week is revealed. This introduction of the Antichrist to the world will inaugurate the Tribulation Hour. This means that the "day of the Lord" or the Tribulation period cannot begin until this monstrous maniac is identified to earth's citizens. Yet he cannot be revealed until the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is removed: "He who now letteth ["hinders"] will let, until he be taken Out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed" (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8).

This does not mean that the Holy Spirit must be removed from the earth. This is impossible because He, as God, is omni-present, everywhere at all times (see Psalm 139:7-11). So it means that His hindering or restraining power over sin;that keeps the Antichrist from mounting the throne; will be removed. This will happen as the Holy Spirit's temples "believers" bodies (see 1 Corinthians 6:19) are taken from the earth to heaven. Then the "salt of the earth" and the "light of the world" will be removed. This immediately will produce corruption and darkness on an unprecedented scale, allowing the world dictator to come to power. This will begin the Tribulation Hour. Then the "beast" of the ages will rule during earth's bloodiest hour, proclaiming himself as God, the Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will rule until Christ returns to earth at the conclusion of the seven years. Then "the Lord shall consume [him] with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy [him] with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

[toille]

Thanks OldSchool. I've been reading and rereading your post and have checked your verses. I am coming up with some different conclusions as you, so we'll have to see. I'll PM you with what I come up with; the verses and implications take a while to explain, but hey, it's definitely worth it! Thanks for everything and I'll write you later. God Bless. /forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif