Weight gain in bulking phase!

[elle11]

Okay, I just had my BF tested and I am:
128# and 23.7% BF , which means 30# fat, 98# lean.

My previous stats before bulking were:
118# and 19.7% BF, which was 23.2# fat 94.5# lean

So I've gained 3.5# muscle and 6.8# fat! Does this sound right? BTW I am 5'6", ectomorphic body type and have been eating around 2300 calories 50% complex carbs, 20% protien and 30% fat.

I certainly expected some fat increase but I'm wondering if this is pretty typical or if I need to cut back on my calories or increase my cardio.

I've been doing a periodized routine with a four day split -- 8 weeks total of 2 weeks each of 12, 10, 8, and 6 reps obviously increasing my weights each 2 weeks. I've got 2 more weeks left of 6 reps. I cut my cardio way back to 1 to 2 days a week of light cardio, nothing intense.

Any replies are appreciated! This is a cross post on the women's and men's board cuz I want to get the guys feedback too. Thanks!!! /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[The Azn Oak]

How was the BF% taken ?

[davethewonderpony]

I agree that your method of BF assessment may not be totally accurate, however, think about the 3.5 pounds of muscle you added, not the 6.5 pounds of fat. Many of us get to the point where we have a hard time gaining a pound of muscle a MONTH. That extra 3.5 pounds of muscle is burning an extra 350 calories per day from your body. When you cut, you can manipulate your body so that the fat will go away but the muscle will stay, and you will look that much better. Don't worry so much about BF on a bulk...it is something I needed to get over as well, watching my abs disappear, etc. Think about the end result, not what is going on right now and you'll be just fine.

[elle11]

My trainer took the sum of three skinfolds -- she's the same one who took the original measurements at the same time of day before my workout. I have wondered if the last one was accurate because my clothes are fitting the same, I only feel a little bit of more fat in the lower abdominal and thigh areas.

Any help is appreciated.

[elle11]

Thanks for the encouragement Dave -- beleive me I am thrilled to gain those 3.5#!

Some other questions to add to the previous ones -- after my 8 weeks of bulking, should I go ahead and try to get the fat off before bulking again, or just keep on trying to build? What do you recommend for cutting -- nutrition and workout wise?

My goal right now by the end of spring is to be 130# with 18% body fat.

thanks, Elle

[HardTrainer]

Hi Elle,
Id try a few things, For bulking try going with this for
Protein 30% Carbs 55% Fat 15% ..And leave the cardio alone until your ready to cut up !.. Don't pay so much attention to the scale or calipers ..Its the Mirror thats
gonna tell you how well your doing ...Train hard and heavy
good luck
H.T.

[Cordyn143]

My question is how do you know what % is lean and what % is fat. I am in a bulk phase too. By stats before were 142 lbs @ 11.3% BF and now I am 146 lbs and 13.4% BF. I am hating life because I think I am gaining fat instead of lean mass as well. How do I compute this fat vs lean thing.

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: elle11:</font><hr> Thanks for the encouragement Dave -- beleive me I am thrilled to gain those 3.5#!

Some other questions to add to the previous ones -- after my 8 weeks of bulking, should I go ahead and try to get the fat off before bulking again, or just keep on trying to build? What do you recommend for cutting -- nutrition and workout wise?

My goal right now by the end of spring is to be 130# with 18% body fat.

thanks, Elle <hr /></blockquote>

Elle, just my personal opinion, if it were me I'd go ahead and cut after those 8 weeks. If you make your bulking and cutting cycles shorter, it should be easier. The longer you bulk the more fat you're gonna gain and the longer it will take to get rid of the extra fat.

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Cordyn143:</font><hr> My question is how do you know what % is lean and what % is fat. I am in a bulk phase too. By stats before were 142 lbs @ 11.3% BF and now I am 146 lbs and 13.4% BF. I am hating life because I think I am gaining fat instead of lean mass as well. How do I compute this fat vs lean thing. <hr /></blockquote>

Cordyn, I use this website: http://maelstrom.seos.uvic.ca/people/zahariev/misc/bf_women.html On it you can find an excel sheet to download and if you are taking your bodyfat measurements every few weeks, you can see trends, as long as you keep saving your results separately each time. It will show you how many lbs of lean vs fat you gained. Word of caution however, even calipers can give some squirrly readings especially if you're holding water so I've had times where the results indicated that I GAINED fat and LOST muscle WHILE working out and dieting properly!! And let me tell ya, THAT is VERY discouraging! Then I start wondering if that's even possible. I don't think it is but then I start wondering if it is possible to ONLY put on fat and NOT muscle. I personally don't know the answer to that question which is why I'm so darn cautious with my carbohydrates even though I'm wanting to gain strength. I know we do have a tendency to store fat more readily than men and I know that because we lack testosterone, we don't build that muscle either as readily as men. So it is my opinion that we may need to be more careful in the bulking phase (diet) than men since our hormones work against us in muscle building. Hope this helps. Check out that site.

And where's Sicily when we need her? Yoohoo, Margie!! Where are you? Help us out here, you've been thru this bulking and cutting, give us some words of wisdom. /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[elle11]

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Cordyn143:</font><hr> My question is how do you know what % is lean and what % is fat. I am in a bulk phase too. By stats before were 142 lbs @ 11.3% BF and now I am 146 lbs and 13.4% BF. I am hating life because I think I am gaining fat instead of lean mass as well. How do I compute this fat vs lean thing. <hr /></blockquote>

take your weight and multiply it by your percent BF.

So your first measurement would be 142# x 11.3% = 16 # fat, 126#lean

Your present mesurements would be 146 x 13.4% = 19.5# fat, 126.5# lean

Check my math, but it looks like you've gained 1/2# muscle. Don't freak out like I did though -- consider how you look, how your clothes fit, are you stronger, are your muscles harder. Also consider the time of day you have the measurements taken, whether it was before or after your workout and the methodology. This is not an exact science, all these variable can mess with your results and mistakes can be made with the skinfolds, if that is the method you used.

[Cordyn143]

That trade off sucks. I'll give back that 1/2lb of muscle.

You may just need to change your diet is all. It's a learning experience trying to find out how to eat for maximum muscle gain and minimal fat gain. But generally you should eat the same foods you do as when you cut just more of them. And also still keep the carbohydrates in check. What is your diet like?

[Cordyn143]

Approx 1800-2000 cal
45-50% protein
40% fat (Flax, safflower, peanut butter)
15-20% carbs (green leafy veggies, oatmeal)

Maybe I'm not getting enough carbs- who knows

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: Cordyn143:</font><hr> Approx 1800-2000 cal
45-50% protein
40% fat (Flax, safflower, peanut butter)
15-20% carbs (green leafy veggies, oatmeal)

Maybe I'm not getting enough carbs- who knows <hr /></blockquote>

Geez, well for one, you are taking in the same amount of calories I take in when I CUT! I'm 141 lbs and I CUT on 2000 calories! I think you're not getting enough calories OR carbs to gain muscle! Your diet is just like my cutting diet and we're about the same weight. What you may have to realize is that you may not be able to gain much muscle when your bodyfat is that low. I discovered that for me personally, I could not gain any muscle even at 15% body fat. It depends on your genetics but seems the majority of women I've had contact with who have experience bulking and cutting, they have said they found it almost impossible to gain muscle under 15% bodyfat. So that may be part of your problem as well. I've gone back up to 18% (as soon as I went off my cutting diet, yeah, it sucks) and now I can finally gain muscle again, I couldn't at 15%. So you may also need to let your bodyfat go up in order to gain, maybe not as much as mine, but more than you're at now. Something you'll have to think about. Unfortunately you cannot have your cake and eat it too, you have to sacrifice some definition in order to gain muscle, even the guys have to do it that way. If I were you I would slowly bump your carbohydrates up to 30% and your fat intake down accordingly of course. And keep lifting like a mad woman. For maximum hypertrophy I would suggest 8-12 rep range to failure, 3-4 exercises per bodypart, and 3-4 sets for each bodypart utilizing shocking methods if needed. Don't skimp on carbs at breakfast and post workout, have at least 40 grams of starchy carbs for breakfast and post workout, that would be my suggestion to start off with anyway. I've been eating 60-70 grams of carbs at breakfast and post workout and I'm not even gaining any weight! Hope this helps. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/rotwerd.gif

[Cordyn143]

At this point I'll try anything I want to do my first competition next June. I'm pretty well defined but need more size. 1 yr and 7 months ago I wore a size 18 and weighed 215lbs. Don't want to ever think about the BF%. But anyway thanks for the insight I'll start uping my carbs somewhat. I think that weight gain had something to do with eating cake and chocolate 2 weeks ago on my 30th. Other than that though my diet is pretty clean. Thanks again

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/xyxthumbs.gif You're welcome!

And don't overdo it on the cardio especially when you are trying to put on some mass! http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/wink2.gif

[elle11]

Thanks to Dave, HT and Krypto for your responses!

I've got one more week left of bulking at 6 reps. I've changed my diet to 50% carb, 30% pro and 20% fat -- same 2300 calories (used to be 50 carb, 20 pro and 30 fat). I've added 15 to 20 minutes of cardio either in the AM or after weight lifting 3 to 4 days a week. I can use all your suggestions when I bulk again.

I'll probably do around 4 weeks of cutting next. Since I only need to cut for a few weeks, what would be your recommendations for me?

I was planning on increasing cardio to 6 days a week and decreasing my calories to 1800 (from 2000 to 2300 now). Do I need to make any adjustments to the carb/pro/fat ratios? What about lifting -- I was planning on doing more reps than in bulking -- 12 to 15 reps to failure. Oh, and what is your opinion of high reps routines for cutting (50-100 reps)?

Thanks in advance, Elle

This will take a bit of typing, so I'll get back to ya when I have some more time, I promise. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/wink.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Posted by: elle11:</font><hr> Thanks to Dave, HT and Krypto for your responses!

I've got one more week left of bulking at 6 reps. I've changed my diet to 50% carb, 30% pro and 20% fat -- same 2300 calories (used to be 50 carb, 20 pro and 30 fat). I've added 15 to 20 minutes of cardio either in the AM or after weight lifting 3 to 4 days a week. I can use all your suggestions when I bulk again. I'll probably do around 4 weeks of cutting next. Since I only need to cut for a few weeks, what would be your recommendations for me?<hr /></blockquote>

Personally, if it were me, cause I'm so dead set on not losing any muscle, I would just change your macronutrient ratios to start and see where that gets you. Are you locked into 4 weeks of cutting or could you possibly cut longer? Reason I ask is cause the longer you cut, the less muscle you'll lose. So if you're not restricted by time, I wouldn't cut calories, at least not for the first 2 weeks. I would go to either a 50%P/20%C/30%F or a 40%P/25%C/35%F keeping the same calories. If you really want to conserve muscle I'd try that first. Give it 2-3 weeks to see if it's working and if not, then cutting calories may be in order. And sometimes it's just a matter of a little bit of tweeking, which could be cutting out certain foods or changing macronutrient ratios again. I personally like to use cutting calories as a last resort.

[ QUOTE ]
I was planning on increasing cardio to 6 days a week<hr /></blockquote>

I wouldn't do that quite yet. Leave your cardio alone for now, again, at least in the beginning. I'd recommend leaving it at 3-4 days a week for now. You don't want to overdo the cardio and especially not at the beginning cause then if you plateau later, that is something you can use to kick the fat burning back into gear. You don't wanna use all your "tricks" right away, you need to have somewhere to go should you get stuck. And cardio burns too much muscle, especially traditional cardio.

[ QUOTE ]
What about lifting -- I was planning on doing more reps than in bulking -- 12 to 15 reps to failure. Oh, and what is your opinion of high reps routines for cutting (50-100 reps)?

Thanks in advance, Elle <hr /></blockquote>

More reps is fine and cutting down on rest time making it almost circuit type training will help as well (calorie burning) but it's not something you have to do. You will still burn fat by lifting using the conventional method. I would say it's more intensity than anything else, the more you put into it, whatever method you're using, the more calories you're going to burn. I personally don't change much as far as my lifting goes whether I'm bulking or cutting. As far as 50-100 reps go, if you are wanting to do something different for a while I don't see anything wrong with it but I also don't think it would be any better than doing a couple sets of 12-15 reps (assuming intensity level is the same) as far as fat burning goes. The higher reps will just stimulate more of your long twitch fibers (the smaller fibers) basically giving you more muscular endurance rather than mass or strength. I do high reps for my legs cause that's exactly what I'm trying to do, increase the muscular endurance in my legs for speed skating.

Put it this way, the training method used is not nearly as important, or doesn't carry as much weight as does your diet. DIET is 90% of it. You can train exactly the same (if you want) whether you're cutting or bulking the difference is just in the DIET.

Anyway, hope this helps. /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[elle11]

Krypto, thanks so much for your help!
Okay I lied! LOL I have not really increased my cardio yet -- I was thinking ahead for the future bulking sessions. My cardio is still 1 or 2 light cardio sessions a week.

As far as the ratios go -- I am a little apprehensive of the high protein diet -- I don't know exactly why -- maybe it's my work in the past with diabetics that is influencing me. So I may try a little more conservative protein level -- say 40/40/20 or the 40%P/25%C/35%F you recommended. I am also concerned about the low carbs and the effect that is going to have on my workouts.

Soooo -- next week I start cutting -- I'll see if I can manipulate my diet as above and I may add some cardio no more that 3 or 4 times a week -- I'll let you know how it is going. I am not in any rush so I am going to take your advice and go for a longer period oftime to lose the fat.

Thanks again and any other suggestions will be appreciated!

Elle

[sicily1962]

ok, girl it's early!! lol!
I have my bodyfat taken about every two weeks.
One thing i can tell you, as a short cut to monitoring your progress is:
If your waist measurement is going down, and your bicep measurement is staying the same or going up, you are gaining mass and losing body fat.
You should also measure first thing in the morning and at the same time and day each week.
The scale may change and there are lots of factors that affect the measurement. Such as a different person doing them each time, too much sodium, not enough water. Eating too close to measurement time or even training before having it done.
All of these things can spill over and affect your reading.
If your clothes are fitting well or continue to get loose, don't sweat it.
The idea is to be gaining mass while losing bodyfat. So looking bigger may not be an idication that you are putting on fat, just leaning out and adding mass.
Go for how you look and feel rather than concentrating on the numbers. Isn't that what it's all about ?
Unless you are contest training, why even want your bodyfat so low?
The average college student is 19-25%...pick a good maintenance number and maintain it. There are several health risks in keeping a low BF% for too long.

I know i've been slacking w/ this contest prep, but i hope this helps some.
I'll check back tonight.
Ciao,
Margie

[HardTrainer]

Hi Elle
Id have to agree about taking your time on cutting the risk of loosing any hard earned muscle not a good trade off.
Also 90% of body building is Diet and getting it right for
you.. a few things that might help is when you do start cardio try the 20,30,&amp;40 min.. Start with 20 min like 4 or
5 day a week for two weeks and progress up to 40 min if your pushing time for a show then up it to twice a day ..I know it worked for me..Im competing this Sat. Nov 2nd and have never been so lean ripped and held my weight the way I have for this show..But like I said It depends on what your goal is .??? I thought you wanted to put size on ?? the hard part is you have to put it on to take it off !.*Smile
well I wish you the best !!. Train hard
H.T.

[elle11]

Hi HT,
I do want to put size on -- but I am going to cut some so I don't have this huge amout of fat to get rid of at one time. I have gained around 3.5# muscle and 6.5 # fat if the SF measurements for my BF are correct.

Would you mind telling me what your diet is for bulking and cutting, as well as any changes you make in your workouts for each phase? Thanks, Elle

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